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Learning Skills and Baffled Rage

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Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.11.17 14:16:00 - [61] Originally by: Black Dranzer Edited by: Black Dranzer on 16/11/2010 16:51:04 Originally by: De'Veldrin Most of the people in favor of removing learning skills seem (in my opinion) to be min/maxers who confuse the term "beneficial" with "mandatory". Obtaining learning skills ASAP is mandatory if you want the greatest objective benefit. It's like I said in the original post; Short term subjective vs long term objective. You are making a false assumption. While it is true that the longer you play Eve, the more potential benefit you get from Learning skills, you seem to be under the assumption that more SP is automatically the biggest benefit you can have. 50 million SP in Industry is useless if you want to shoot things, for example. You also seem to be under the assumption that just because something is good for everyone, they should just give it to everyone. If you got your wish, people would next be crying that everyone should have +5 Implants for free. They benefit everyone. It is a sandbox. Not everyone plays the same, not every character is a main, not every situation is the same. The biggest argument for leaving things alone is it ain't broke so don't fix it.
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2010.11.17 14:27:00 - [62] Originally by: Bernard Schuyler Originally by: Black Dranzer Edited by: Black Dranzer on 16/11/2010 16:51:04 Originally by: De'Veldrin Most of the people in favor of removing learning skills seem (in my opinion) to be min/maxers who confuse the term "beneficial" with "mandatory". Obtaining learning skills ASAP is mandatory if you want the greatest objective benefit. It's like I said in the original post; Short term subjective vs long term objective. You are making a false assumption. While it is true that the longer you play Eve, the more potential benefit you get from Learning skills, you seem to be under the assumption that more SP is automatically the biggest benefit you can have. 50 million SP in Industry is useless if you want to shoot things, for example. You also seem to be under the assumption that just because something is good for everyone, they should just give it to everyone. If you got your wish, people would next be crying that everyone should have +5 Implants for free. They benefit everyone. It is a sandbox. Not everyone plays the same, not every character is a main, not every situation is the same. The biggest argument for leaving things alone is it ain't broke so don't fix it. That on the other hand is no real argument here. Even CCP admitted that learning skills were a bad idea. And "not broken" is the perception of one part of the community. Sandbox: Again, Eve is a PvP game on all sides of the game. So the Learning skills are mandatory to remain competetive unless you plan jsut to train one specific thing and then stop. For example a Cyno alt....
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.11.17 14:30:00 - [63] Edited by: Forum Guy on 17/11/2010 14:34:10 Originally by: Bernard Schuyler You also seem to be under the assumption that just because something is good for everyone, they should just give it to everyone. If you got your wish, people would next be crying that everyone should have +5 Implants for free. They benefit everyone. Seems to me you are making the assumption that if learning skills were removed people would ask for more. Learning skills have been argued about for a long time now but not seen much about implants. With implants there's only cybernetics to train and most people stick to +4s anyway unless they put +5s on a jump clone to train with when not playing. Implants are fine as they are nothing really needs to be done there. Originally by: Bernard Schuyler The biggest argument for leaving things alone is it ain't broke so don't fix it. With the amount of bad feeling over learning skills it obviously is broke, so from your quote it obviously needs fixing.
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2010.11.17 14:38:00 - [64] If learning skills were so good for the game, why do you keep hearing "remove them!" instead of "make more of them!"?
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.11.17 14:49:00 - [65] Originally by: Forum Guy So people have a choice to be patient and try and get through the learning skills or go play something else (this will hopefully change in time). This is false, I had lot of fun in EvE...even while skilling up my learning skills. So if I can...so can others...they just need to HTFU, whine less..and play the fracking game. What is next? Nerf impants...because +5 implants cost to much for new players? ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.11.17 15:28:00 - [66] Originally by: AterraX Originally by: Forum Guy So people have a choice to be patient and try and get through the learning skills or go play something else (this will hopefully change in time). This is false, I had lot of fun in EvE...even while skilling up my learning skills. So if I can...so can others...they just need to HTFU, whine less..and play the fracking game. What is next? Nerf impants...because +5 implants cost to much for new players? It's not false you as an individual got through it and others do too, but it also puts a lot of players off. What's more important training a load of learning skills that don't need to be in the game and when training those you can't train anything else at the same time. Or, training skills that are going to help you get more out of the game at an early stage and make it a more rewarding experience. Like be able to get that Hulk a little sooner if you are into mining. Or get some skills for doing level 2 and 3 missions or even PvP skills. I don't think for most people it's a sense of achievement that they get after completing the learning skills, for me it was more a sense of relief.
Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.11.17 16:14:00 - [67] Originally by: Orion GUardian That on the other hand is no real argument here. Even CCP admitted that learning skills were a bad idea. And "not broken" is the perception of one part of the community. Sandbox: Again, Eve is a PvP game on all sides of the game. So the Learning skills are mandatory to remain competetive unless you plan jsut to train one specific thing and then stop. For example a Cyno alt.... Perception is relative as you point out. There is another thread in this forum where a guy wants to just pay ISK for instant SP. Everyone has an opinion. As far as Learning skills being a "bad idea" they could just as easily remove Learning skills and everyone trainst slower. Your "competitive" argument remains a completely false analogy. SP in and of itself measures nothing except age and epeen. Joe can have 100m SP and Bill can have 50m SP... If they are both in a Drake with every Drake affecting skill at 5 then the extra 50m that Joe has in Lasers or Mining or whatever are completely irrelevent to their respective "competitiveness." The rate of SP gain is ONLY related to the desire of Players to be able to do whatever it is they set their hearts on (be it fly a particular ship, etc) sooner rather than later. Everything else is just smoke.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.11.17 16:19:00 - [68] Originally by: Bernard Schuyler Originally by: Orion GUardian That on the other hand is no real argument here. Even CCP admitted that learning skills were a bad idea. And "not broken" is the perception of one part of the community. Sandbox: Again, Eve is a PvP game on all sides of the game. So the Learning skills are mandatory to remain competetive unless you plan jsut to train one specific thing and then stop. For example a Cyno alt.... Perception is relative as you point out. There is another thread in this forum where a guy wants to just pay ISK for instant SP. Everyone has an opinion. As far as Learning skills being a "bad idea" they could just as easily remove Learning skills and everyone trainst slower. Your "competitive" argument remains a completely false analogy. SP in and of itself measures nothing except age and epeen. Joe can have 100m SP and Bill can have 50m SP... If they are both in a Drake with every Drake affecting skill at 5 then the extra 50m that Joe has in Lasers or Mining or whatever are completely irrelevent to their respective "competitiveness." The rate of SP gain is ONLY related to the desire of Players to be able to do whatever it is they set their hearts on (be it fly a particular ship, etc) sooner rather than later. Everything else is just smoke. Guess you've never browsed the Recruitment Channel, most of the adds specify a minimum joining sp amount. Can't say I've seen an add specifying a minimum requirement on the size of someone's epeen.
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2010.11.17 16:21:00 - [69] more learning skills? - I'd train them without a second thought Want some stats, 10.000 out of 23.000 pilots on eveboard.com have trained learning skills to 5/4 (empathy 4) with the rest of them most likely going for something similar or just being alts not in training. Here it would be great to have some stats of how many skill points these pilots have but alas, Chribba would be the only one able to answer that and with those numbers effectively put this matter to rest. Does anyone still want to say learning skills are an option? .
Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.11.17 16:32:00 - [70] Originally by: Forum Guy Guess you've never browsed the Recruitment Channel, most of the adds specify a minimum joining sp amount. Can't say I've seen an add specifying a minimum requirement on the size of someone's epeen. Just because players do it doesn't mean it makes it correct Clearly they are using SP as an easy gauge to ensure that a recruit is not a total newb or is unlikely to quit soon, or even if enough of an investment to hopefully not be a throwaway scam alt that will corp theft as soon as possible. If you make SP gain universally faster, I guarantee you will see the "minimum SP" numbers in recruitment threads raised by at least an equal ratio... Gaining you a net of nothing. But again, if you are being recruited to PVP, having 25m SP in Mining is worthless. If you are being recruited to be a Miner, 25m in EWar and such is equally not relevant. Popular use aside, raw SP totals don't really indicate quality, suitability, etc. they just indicate that you've been playing awhile.

Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.11.17 16:46:00 - [71] Originally by: Ravenal Does anyone still want to say learning skills are an option? Sitting in a station with no skills except 5/4 in all Learning skills remains an option. Plugging a skillplan into EVEMon and doing the recommended levels of Learnings alongside skills that will make the game more fun and entertaining is more than enough of a balance of efficiency and playability.
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.11.17 17:21:00 - [72] Edited by: Pantload on 17/11/2010 17:22:47 Originally by: Bernard Schuyler Originally by: Ravenal Does anyone still want to say learning skills are an option? Sitting in a station with no skills except 5/4 in all Learning skills remains an option. Plugging a skillplan into EVEMon and doing the recommended levels of Learnings alongside skills that will make the game more fun and entertaining is more than enough of a balance of efficiency and playability. The anti-learning skill crowd hates this argument. Even though the average new player only lasts 6-9 months, they have been told ( by equally ignorant people ) that they need to skill learnings as though they will be here for years and they all fell for it. In fact, most of them have the idea that they must train learnings at the exclusion of all else ( including having fun ). At this point, the attitude is so prevalent that I'm not sure you'll get rid of it. Too much of the WoW crowd came over to Eve. I am firmly convinced that if CCP caves in and removes the Learning skills, it will only be a very short time before a new "This game is too hard for new players" argument will come up and something else will have to be nerfed/removed/shortened/made-easier. edit If this game is so hard for new players and so many of them quit...how come the game keeps getting bigger all the time? It's currently the biggest it's ever been and still growing. Just curious. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2010.11.17 18:05:00 - [73] Originally by: Ravenal more learning skills? - I'd train them without a second thought Want some stats, 10.000 out of 23.000 pilots on eveboard.com have trained learning skills to 5/4 (empathy 4) with the rest of them most likely going for something similar or just being alts not in training. Here it would be great to have some stats of how many skill points these pilots have but alas, Chribba would be the only one able to answer that and with those numbers effectively put this matter to rest. Does anyone still want to say learning skills are an option? Exactly what data do you need me to pull? Secure 3rd party service \| my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

WorkingOnIt	Posted - 2010.11.17 19:31:00 - [74] I have been playing less than 3 months and have 3 toons on my account.. My very first had 0 learning skills i hit the 1.6mill limit and the rise in skill time was sickning tbh.. I am stuborn and have a good resiliance to being bored easy, could also see the potential in Eve.. I made a new character and did learning skills to 4/3 i also have +3 implants, the training times still seem ridiculsly long i havnt set up an optimal remap but should i really have to as a new player? I am all for getting rid of the learning skills and giveing us all max attributes, even now im looking at my skill plans and thinking this is just ridiculus but i am trying stick with it.. So much for fun Fact is if i wasnt so stuborn i would have left Eve and taken my money elsewhere.. How many do? Only ccp has them stats
Ard UnjiiGo The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.11.17 19:46:00 - [75] Originally by: Lost Greybeard You realize that you don't have to train Learning or any of the single-stat Learning skills if you don't want, yes? It's a short-term/long-term trade-off thing, and it immediately breaks you of your habit of always sacrificing short term gains for long-term ones, because if you don't train other stuff in the first couple of months you'll go completely nuts. Realizing that there are more important things than progression is one of the key requirements to not suck at this game, and learning skills (or, rather, the act of abandoning the learning skills at a certain point) teaches it well. I think it's actually one of the big improvers of the player-base. Forces them to actually start to realize what the sandbox is. Only worthwhile thing said in this entire thread.
WorkingOnIt	Posted - 2010.11.17 19:54:00 - [76] Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo Originally by: Lost Greybeard You realize that you don't have to train Learning or any of the single-stat Learning skills if you don't want, yes? It's a short-term/long-term trade-off thing, and it immediately breaks you of your habit of always sacrificing short term gains for long-term ones, because if you don't train other stuff in the first couple of months you'll go completely nuts. Realizing that there are more important things than progression is one of the key requirements to not suck at this game, and learning skills (or, rather, the act of abandoning the learning skills at a certain point) teaches it well. I think it's actually one of the big improvers of the player-base. Forces them to actually start to realize what the sandbox is. Only worthwhile thing said in this entire thread. Once you old players get over the butthurt of "aww but we had to do it" the better Eve will become... Skill times in Eve right now are way over the top, to much competition from other games to leave it as is.. Im sorry but its time for a revolution or this game will be stunted in the longer term... I do hope the new expansion brings faster training or loses learning skills... I like Eve alot but its needs to change.
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.11.17 20:14:00 - [77] Originally by: WorkingOnIt Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo Originally by: Lost Greybeard You realize that you don't have to train Learning or any of the single-stat Learning skills if you don't want, yes? It's a short-term/long-term trade-off thing, and it immediately breaks you of your habit of always sacrificing short term gains for long-term ones, because if you don't train other stuff in the first couple of months you'll go completely nuts. Realizing that there are more important things than progression is one of the key requirements to not suck at this game, and learning skills (or, rather, the act of abandoning the learning skills at a certain point) teaches it well. I think it's actually one of the big improvers of the player-base. Forces them to actually start to realize what the sandbox is. Only worthwhile thing said in this entire thread. Once you old players get over the butthurt of "aww but we had to do it" the better Eve will become... Skill times in Eve right now are way over the top, to much competition from other games to leave it as is.. Im sorry but its time for a revolution or this game will be stunted in the longer term... I do hope the new expansion brings faster training or loses learning skills... I like Eve alot but its needs to change. Spoken like an impetuous child. Your attitude reflects precisely what is wrong with a lot of the newest players in this game. It's funny though, you guys love to speak of bitter vets and bandy about the word butthurt. You guys are the ones experiencing butthurt about this. Not the older players. The older players have been content for years. Unfortunately, you guys *** so much that CCP will eventually do something to appease you. It won't help. You all will simply scream about the next thing, and ultimately, most of you won't even last a year in this game and it will all be for naught. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes.** Buy Corps here
Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.11.17 20:16:00 - [78] Originally by: WorkingOnIt Once you old players get over the butthurt of "aww but we had to do it" the better Eve will become... Skill times in Eve right now are way over the top, to much competition from other games to leave it as is.. Im sorry but its time for a revolution or this game will be stunted in the longer term... I do hope the new expansion brings faster training or loses learning skills... I like Eve alot but its needs to change. I hope you realize that even if one of these suggestions is implemented, the speed increase to training will not be dramatic. It will be marginal at best. It will be most noticeable for new characters, but after a month or two not so much. If you are looking for the character advancement system to become more of an on demand thing like other MMOs you are SOL.
WorkingOnIt	Posted - 2010.11.17 20:22:00 - [79] Originally by: Bernard Schuyler Originally by: WorkingOnIt Once you old players get over the butthurt of "aww but we had to do it" the better Eve will become... Skill times in Eve right now are way over the top, to much competition from other games to leave it as is.. Im sorry but its time for a revolution or this game will be stunted in the longer term... I do hope the new expansion brings faster training or loses learning skills... I like Eve alot but its needs to change. I hope you realize that even if one of these suggestions is implemented, the speed increase to training will not be dramatic. It will be marginal at best. It will be most noticeable for new characters, but after a month or two not so much. If you are looking for the character advancement system to become more of an on demand thing like other MMOs you are SOL. I have never really played other mmo, never tried wow or anything like that, they just look crap :) Marginal speed increase would be nice... You wana know my secret optimal plan?? Im going to skill up till i can run lvl4s grind like you wouldnt belive buy the odd plex saveing all my isk and then buy a 3 or 4 year old toon.. So for a 9/12 grinding i can have a high sp toon, tbh do you really think this is the attitude a new player should have?? No me neither, fix something CCP
Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.11.17 20:51:00 - [80] Originally by: WorkingOnIt Originally by: Bernard Schuyler Originally by: WorkingOnIt Once you old players get over the butthurt of "aww but we had to do it" the better Eve will become... Skill times in Eve right now are way over the top, to much competition from other games to leave it as is.. Im sorry but its time for a revolution or this game will be stunted in the longer term... I do hope the new expansion brings faster training or loses learning skills... I like Eve alot but its needs to change. I hope you realize that even if one of these suggestions is implemented, the speed increase to training will not be dramatic. It will be marginal at best. It will be most noticeable for new characters, but after a month or two not so much. If you are looking for the character advancement system to become more of an on demand thing like other MMOs you are SOL. I have never really played other mmo, never tried wow or anything like that, they just look crap :) Marginal speed increase would be nice... You wana know my secret optimal plan?? Im going to skill up till i can run lvl4s grind like you wouldnt belive buy the odd plex saveing all my isk and then buy a 3 or 4 year old toon.. So for a 9/12 grinding i can have a high sp toon, tbh do you really think this is the attitude a new player should have?? No me neither, fix something CCP LOL That WAS the fix! It what other game can you LEGALLY buy a 4 year old character, in game cash, items etc? NOWHERE. If you think that ANY changes to character progression will let you play for less than a year and get several years worth of skills I strongly suggest you look at another game. And I don't mean that in an insulting way, I think some other MMOs are decent.

WorkingOnIt	Posted - 2010.11.17 20:58:00 - [81] Originally by: Bernard Schuyler If you think that ANY changes to character progression will let you play for less than a year and get several years worth of skills I strongly suggest you look at another game. And I don't mean that in an insulting way, I think some other MMOs are decent. No other MMOs have 25years to max out you charecter... Im not buying experiance just the abillity to play the game for fun
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.11.17 21:29:00 - [82] Edited by: Forum Guy on 17/11/2010 21:30:35 Originally by: Pantload I am firmly convinced that if CCP caves in and removes the Learning skills, it will only be a very short time before a new "This game is too hard for new players" argument will come up and something else will have to be nerfed/removed/shortened/made-easier. edit If this game is so hard for new players and so many of them quit...how come the game keeps getting bigger all the time? It's currently the biggest it's ever been and still growing. Just curious. See you are using scaremongering tactics as usual. Removing the learning skills has nothing to do with making the game easier. Not unless you Pants consider putting skills in the queue hard. But it has everything to do with getting rid of something that offers nothing of any real value. It's totally unnecessary and all it does is put a stumbling block in the path of new players that should be developing their characters in a logical manner. As for people asking for the game to be made easier I just think that's bull. Less boring at the start but not easier.
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2010.11.17 21:33:00 - [83] Originally by: Pantload Now what makes the most sense to me is to leave them. BUT...The early training speed bonus needs to be much longer and possibly faster. Early training speed bonus should be probably even higher than 2x ( you could scale it down over time possibly? ) and needs to last until...scream if you will...possibly as long as 10m SP or even farther. Bottom line: It needs to be possible to get to 10m SP or more in something like 3 months instead of 6 months. One could argue that 10m SP is even rather "baseline". Right now its possible to do that in 6 months or so and more than 20m in year. It kind of needs to be possible to surpass 10m and even be at 15m at maybe 6 months? I'm just sort of "spit-balling" on the times there, but...that is kind of the point where a fairly specialized character starts to get pretty good even including his/her support skills. Pantsy makes a point here. After all it's the slow startup months and not being able not to fly anything decent that causes the annoyance and scares off new players, not so much the learning skills themselves per sT. If you could train 1 year worth of skills in half a year, that would already be a decent improvement. In my opinion new players not so much want to "catch up" with the veterans but they do want to be able to fly decent ships and do L4s or fly a Hulk or whatever within a reasonable timeframe. Once you have a certain versatility and can fly a range of ships, more progression or perfecting your skills to V isn't that important anymore. Of course this would also get us new problems like players who are unhappy about the fast period stopping after 6 months, but it's at least a lot better than the curent situation.
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.11.17 21:46:00 - [84] Edited by: Pantload on 17/11/2010 21:47:56 Originally by: Forum Guy Edited by: Forum Guy on 17/11/2010 21:30:35 Originally by: Pantload I am firmly convinced that if CCP caves in and removes the Learning skills, it will only be a very short time before a new "This game is too hard for new players" argument will come up and something else will have to be nerfed/removed/shortened/made-easier. edit If this game is so hard for new players and so many of them quit...how come the game keeps getting bigger all the time? It's currently the biggest it's ever been and still growing. Just curious. See you are using scaremongering tactics as usual. Removing the learning skills has nothing to do with making the game easier. Not unless you Pants consider putting skills in the queue hard. But it has everything to do with getting rid of something that offers nothing of any real value. It's totally unnecessary and all it does is put a stumbling block in the path of new players that should be developing their characters in a logical manner. As for people asking for the game to be made easier I just think that's bull. Less boring at the start but not easier. It's not scaremongering. It's cynicism. Why put the "as usual" part? As if you know me or anything about me. You should say what you mean. You simply don't want to have to train learning skills and you want the bonus they confer to be given to you with no investment of your time, isk, or patience. Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: Pantload Stuff Pantsy makes a point here. After all it's the slow startup months and not being able not to fly anything decent (partially because of 2 months of learning skills) that causes the annoyance and scares off new players, not so much the learning skills themselves per sT. If you could train 1 year worth of skills (say 23 million SP) in half a year, that would already be a very decent improvement. In my opinion new players not so much want to "catch up" with the veterans but they do want to be able to fly decent ships and do L4s or fly a Hulk or whatever within a reasonable timeframe. Once you have a certain versatility and can fly a range of ships, more progression or perfecting your skills to V isn't that important anymore. Of course this would also get us new problems like players who are unhappy about the fast period stopping after 6 months, but it's at least a lot better than the curent situation. Now I think I'm in the twilight zone. You and I just agreed on something TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.11.17 22:30:00 - [85] Originally by: Pantload It's not scaremongering. It's cynicism. Why put the "as usual" part? As if you know me or anything about me. You should say what you mean. You simply don't want to have to train learning skills and you want the bonus they confer to be given to you with no investment of your time, isk, or patience. I do sort of know you from past threads spanning back months. I did say what I mean, just read the other posts in this thread. I've played this game since 2005 (with some breaks), I've always considered the learning skills to be just a time sink. The skill tree would work fine without them they are not necessary (you would have to compensate for their removal as far as training times go) even though I've learnt rank 3 learning skills to level 5 in the past. But I do wonder why a few people like them, is it because they do put people off of this game, less people means less lag and lag has been an issue in this game for as long as I can remember. Plus I've not heard a genuine good reason to keep them. Saying that if CCP gives in on learning skills (which I believe CCP have already said somewhere along the line that they were a mistake, or words to that effect)people will want the game made easier, I don't consider a genuine reason for keeping them, there's no facts to support that argument as far as I can see.
Zan Shiro	Posted - 2010.11.18 03:11:00 - [86] Originally by: WorkingOnIt No other MMOs have 25years to max out you charecter... No....they just lock you into classes that have only one end. You start day 1 as an orc tank...day 1000, yep still an orc tank. Wanna try healer or melee dps, maybe fit elf gear but not be an elf? Reroll. Eve...want to train for miner at first, go right ahead. Mining sucks you find out. Reroll? nope. Put in them combat skills and get combat ships (and you keep your mining skills to at least refine your loot and those mining lasers eat up some power and cpu so what do you know...you have good fitting skills to carry over to all ships) to go mission blitzing. PVP bug hits....more options. If in other games you liked being the unsung hero known as the healer...eve has that. So you take your ex-miner who now flies combat ships, put in skill trains for all the reps, strong cap skills and grind cruiser 5 for logis. Wait...whats this...with cruiser 5 I can fly hacs now too if I learn AF's to 4. Cool, in other games I would have to reroll a melee dps toon to do this. Yes it takes eve 25 years to learn everything to 5...mainly because it gives you the option to do it on one char. and you don't have to do this. If you really just want to run sites and missions and blow stuff up...you don't have to train quantum physics 5 if you don't want to. If your ocd that bas you must have all skills in eve on char...seek some rl help from a medical professional.
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2010.11.18 07:50:00 - [87] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 18/11/2010 07:56:30 Originally by: Zan Shiro Originally by: WorkingOnIt No other MMOs have 25years to max out you charecter... No....they just lock you into classes that have only one end. You start day 1 as an orc tank...day 1000, yep still an orc tank. Wanna try healer or melee dps, maybe fit elf gear but not be an elf? Reroll. This argument has been used before of course. And the obvious answer is still that it takes far less time to train all classes and professions in an average mmorpg to max level than a single character in EVE to max skills. What races are concerned: in EVE you can't change races either, you also have to reroll. And we also get the new character creator which makes it impossible for a lot of bloodlines to look like they did when we created them. You'll just have to accept it. And in most games race doesn't really matter a lot anyway. So what's the difference? In EVE you may switch ships, in another mmorpg you switch characters for max versatility. In EVE it just takes 6 times as long to train them. I don't see the added value of being able to do it one character if the price is investing half your life into it instead of a few years.
Baneken Gallente School of the Unseen	Posted - 2010.11.18 08:20:00 - [88] Edited by: Baneken on 18/11/2010 08:21:50 Problem is simply that we need the old "RP-based" system back; the one we had in trinity and no remaps obviously. Well, remaps are good I agree on that but I really would like to get rid of the new 1,6mil for 2xspeed system and bring back the old system, since this new system seems to breed too much newbies who want everything to be 2x speed. When I started 2007 there was no *****ing about slow training what so ever, everyone was happy except those who had put all points in charisma. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Aralyn Cormallen Wraith.Wing Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.11.18 13:43:00 - [89] Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen on 18/11/2010 13:44:12 I'm pretty sure I'm ****ing in the wind here, since this is the sort of arguement that the sides are solidly entrenched - no amount of reasoning either way will get anyone to change their mind, particularly the OP who started the thread with "this is why learning skills are bad, these are the arguements that people use to say learning skills are good, but they are wrong, so we are going to disregard those arguements". Awesome start to a debate. From my point of view, why I like them, and appreciate their existance, is they are there to break you of the addiction with efficiency. And its something you have to be able to do if you ever intend to play the game. Refuse to train a single skill until you have 5/5 of all stats? Refuse to wear anything but +5 implants? Refuse to fly any ship until you have lv5 in that ship type? Refuse to equip a T1 item? Refuse to equip a gun without lv5 in its skill, its specialisation skill, and all damage/range/tracking skills? Where does it stop, where do you draw the line in accepting a degree of inefficiency in what you want to do. I realised early. I have 4/3 in most learning skills (with 5 in motion prediction and learning itself). I have clones with paired sets of +3s for pvp, and a full +5 clone for when I cant play the game that week. I have flown ships with only lv2-3 in thats ships skill. I have used t1 ecm mods. I have flown ships with best named weapons as the grind to t2 is so long. And thats got me in the game. Had I waited til full 5/5, had refused to remove my +5s under any circumstances, and only ever flown full t2 fitted ships with max skills, I would still be parked in Jita, rather than out doing stuff in 0.0
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2010.11.18 13:54:00 - [90] Originally by: Chribba Exactly what data do you need me to pull? A distribution of skillpoints before and after learning 5/4 or so (2m skillpoints in learning). .



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