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Salasilm
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Posted - 2010.11.17 11:33:00 -
[1]
What is the most (cost)effective way of getting (good) isk/h from guristas sanctums/havens with 2-3 accounts ?
A little background as well. Back in the south (esoteria) I used carrier + 2 gank abbadons to do sanctums. Now I live in the north and dumped pile of drakes on the anoms in my home system, but the rewards are not as good as back in the south. Mainly I suspect lack of dps when compared against full gank abbadons against em weak opponents.
Ok Drakes work. Nighthawks are a little better and work as well. Raven is ofc option for tiny bit of extra dps against bigger targets over Nighthawk. But they all have delayed dps that results in some 'wasted' stuff as I cant control volleys effectively tripleaccounting. Looked into rails - they ... uhm ... dont quite live up my expectations after having used Tahyions against EM weak stuff.
Some of my corpmates suggest Domis - although I cant use T2 sentrys with any of my chars. How good are domis against gurista sanctums compared to Ravens. I'm mainly thinking about damage output. Say a carrier + 2x Domi vs 3x Nighthawk vs carrier + 2x raven. Any other combo I should look at. Or has anyone tried 3 carriers ?
I do not want to use T2 or faction battleships in 0.0 as at that level of investment it is cheaper to lose T2 fitted carrier (that is significaly more survivable as well) than one of those.
Skills: Guy 1 - 100 mil sp, amarr and caldari spec could use carrier as well if I buy a skillbook for it. Guy 2 - 65 mil sp, amarr and caldari spec could use carrier as well if I buy skillbook for it. Guy 3 - 45 mil sp, very focused on carrier piloting (amarr, caldary and minny carrier) + fleet battleship with mediocre skills (crappy gunnery, etc). At the end of day skills are not an issue, they can be trained if some platform is considerably above the competition.
PS. Please do not suggest supercarriers ;) They are good but a bit too big targets for my taste.
This is alt for obvious reasons. |
Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2010.11.17 12:28:00 -
[2]
Get a Nyx. Seriously.
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Salasilm
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Posted - 2010.11.17 12:44:00 -
[3]
Nyx is damn good I have heard, but I really dont think its for me. I would prefer to stay at carrier level investment or below per character. In 0.0 stuff happens and one day that stuff will happen to whatever ship I'm happening to use to do those anomalies. Swallowing a Nyx loss would be a bit ... hard .. for me  . While carrier and battleships - well 'stuff' happens.
The usual mantra of not flying what I cant afford to lose etc etc.
About carriers - main reason why I dont consider just ramming 3 carriers in sanctum automatic win is lack of sentry damage rigs when compared against Domi. Or well .. you can ofc fit them on your carrier but more sane persons install CCC in theirs. Plus fighters can not be put on 'guard' and 'assist' duty.
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Sandrestal
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Posted - 2010.11.17 13:41:00 -
[4]
Just get a Mael to tank and a Raven to gank. Pretty cost effective.
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Salasilm
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Posted - 2010.11.17 14:07:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Sandrestal
Just get a Mael to tank and a Raven to gank. Pretty cost effective.
Well - with possibility to field a carrier tanking is not an issue even if your target ship tank is only damage control and single hardener. I did consider gank Mael tho. It looks promising but I have some doubts about tracking ability of arties. On the other hand AC has the tracking ability and then some but I would be sitting in falloff range and being used to lasers it kinda puts me a bit off as it bites off significant amount of the dps EFT promises you.
4 Sentries (with sentry damage rigs) + 8x 1400 mm arties look quite good on paper.
Raven is strong option, especially considering that my battleship pilots both have max skills for one while projectiles are relatively weakly skilled at the moment.
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Nettlebed
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Posted - 2010.11.17 19:30:00 -
[6]
I'm doing guristas sanctums with an arty-maelstrom.
Bounty ticks are at 12-19m. My record so far is 19.6m without faction spawn. 12m is when I take too much time switching between anomalies.
Gunnery skills not the best, and I can't use heavy t2 drones so I only got medium and light ones atm. Tracking computer with tracking script, and an eccm helps alot vs the elite cruisers. |
Kaanchana
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.11.18 05:00:00 -
[7]
hijacking the thread/-
What about using a golem for this? the npc's max range is about 51kms. so will a golem be more effective than a carrier?
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Unjust Arbiter
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.11.18 05:22:00 -
[8]
Id use:
Tengu + Tengu
or
Tengu + Tengu + Tengu
or
Carrier + Tengu
or
Carrier + Tengu + Tengu
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Missy Sasha
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Posted - 2010.11.18 07:00:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Missy Sasha on 18/11/2010 07:01:16
I would say use a drake + carrier + raven.
use the drake to kill small stuff and help with BS, use the raven to kill BS on its own, and the carrier to just eat whatever and RR the raven.
edit: only because using a tengu you have to manage 4s launches and they're a lot more expensive.
otherwise ^^ what he said
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Salasilm
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Posted - 2010.11.18 10:03:00 -
[10]
Well - my battleship pilots do have max skills for Golem and Paladin, but at that price range I would just field 3 carriers as as I mentioned, it is cheaper to lose T2 fitted Carrier for me than T2 battleship. Plus the added survivability of capital hull due to the a lot thicker buffer. I have been caught in anom by SB gangs before in the south and survived the encounter in a carrier. Just keep your cool and stick pile of warriors on them while your corpmates switch into combat ships and come to save you. Marauder would have just melted faster than corpmates can do the dock, switch ship (30 sec), undock (30 sec), warp to you ritual. 1 million ehp gives you quite considerable margin for errors.
Tengus ... I'm not a big fan of them. They are nice and agile ships but well ... high RoF makes it harder to maintain effectivity and their damage output is not that stellar as well when you compare it against alternatives like Nighthawk or even Drakes. Their main advantage is relatively low skill prerequisites and interdiction nullifers.
I did give a try to Dominix though - it seems a bit better than Drake against gurista anoms. But as I'm a bit n00bish as far as actually using drones goes I am propably not as effective in one yet as I could be. Will see what the next expansion does to ones ability to use drones though - the sleeper AI is a bit annoying I have heard.
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Salasilm
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Posted - 2010.11.18 10:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kaanchana
hijacking the thread/-
What about using a golem for this? the npc's max range is about 51kms. so will a golem be more effective than a carrier?
To answer your question - properly fitted gank battleship is more effective in anomalies killing stuff than carriers. Marauders have the advantage of actually being able to pull off gank fit while maintaining enough tank to survive against higher end anomalies. However - they are quite fragile if you get jumped while in anom - even single stealth bomber can be fatal to one if it's already tanking the anom and it all happens blitzing fast. Faster than help can arrive. So for me using T2 battleship is not worth the rewards vs risk when compared against alternatives that are roughly as effective.
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Salasilm
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Posted - 2010.11.19 09:33:00 -
[12]
A follow up question about Domi in Guristas anoms.
Do you guys use Grade or Warden ? At last with T1 sentries it seems that Grades are a bit short ranged for guristas, as At best I can push their optimal to about 30 km + 10 km falloff that is relatively useless for those bastards orbiting at 50 km. I take that it is better with T2 apparently with drone optimal about 45 km ...
So am I correct with assumption that for Guristas at T1 one uses Wardens and switches to Grades once able to use T2 ?
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.11.19 10:35:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Salasilm
A follow up question about Domi in Guristas anoms.
Do you guys use Grade or Warden ? At last with T1 sentries it seems that Grades are a bit short ranged for guristas, as At best I can push their optimal to about 30 km + 10 km falloff that is relatively useless for those bastards orbiting at 50 km. I take that it is better with T2 apparently with drone optimal about 45 km ...
So am I correct with assumption that for Guristas at T1 one uses Wardens and switches to Grades once able to use T2 ?
A Domi with 2x Omnidirectionals should be able to get away with using T2 Gardes vs Guristas. But yeah if you're still restricted to T1, then use Wardens for now.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Perfection Tau
Cuties Only.
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:34:00 -
[14]
I'm using single AC machariel it used to bring me 25mil ticks after I changed gyros to faction ones it's 28mil/20 min after tax. So ring sanctum (I avoid station ones if possible) is cleared in one payout interval.
It however requires alot of manual control and anything but peaceful AFK farming. tl;dr Isk/h is high isk/effort low. |
Guilliman R
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:46:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Guilliman R on 28/11/2010 08:47:06
Double carrier here.
22+ sentries eat battleships for breakfast.
*edit for numbers;
Atm I'm looking at between 80 to 100m per hour, that's station sanctum per bounty tick.
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Salasilm
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Posted - 2010.11.28 11:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Guilliman R
Edited by: Guilliman R on 28/11/2010 08:47:06
Double carrier here.
22+ sentries eat battleships for breakfast.
*edit for numbers;
Atm I'm looking at between 80 to 100m per hour, that's station sanctum per bounty tick.
I seriously considered fielding just 3 carriers with sentries, however I think carrier + 2 Domis is better with sentries, as you can fit sentry drone damage rigs on your Domis (+ guns) while I would not consider sentry rigs on carrier that sensible. Unless you have separate carriers for just PvE. It would be a bit more survivable setup ofc than just carrier with few domis as it takes more firepower to kill 3 carriers hugging each other. Then again in ideal world you would not end up takcled and when you do carrier + few domis is smaller loss than 3 carriers.
My second pilot gained ability to fly Domi and use sentry drones recently and I shall be fielding second Domi as soon as I have shipped one out.
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Sandrestal
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Posted - 2010.11.28 15:07:00 -
[17]
OK, here's real world. In 2 hours time using a 1200 Mael and a cruise Raven I did:
2 ring sanctums
1 station sanctum
1 haven
I'm sure others could do them faster but considering low isk investment I'm happy enough.
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Motamiter
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Posted - 2010.11.28 18:24:00 -
[18]
Just go for 3 sentry carriers. GardeII's eats up things pretty quickly when max drone skilled - I'd say about 20%~30% improvement over T1 counterparts. You do have drone interfaceV right? With 2~3 omnis they hit out to 60km without much problem. Also 3 carriers is much easier to semi-afk doing things so you can devout more attention to directional scanner, or probes, or chats that'll divert frustration away from repetitive sanctum spams and keep you entertained :P
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superteds
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Posted - 2010.11.28 18:47:00 -
[19]
tengu+fighters
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Lord Rapture
Amarr
Appetite 4 Destruction
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Posted - 2010.11.28 19:48:00 -
[20]
sentry carrier + 1400mm mach 4-5 ring sanctum per hour
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StryP1
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Posted - 2010.11.30 13:48:00 -
[21]
We had an informal bet in our region of Gurista nulsec over exactly this question.
The result?
A Nyx hands down chews BSs in sanctums. But since losing once can hurt the wallet, the second best ship is a Tengu, no comparison. OFC, it's a 2 Bil fit, but it kills a BS like 0.4 secs longer than a Raven and a Myrmidon hitting another BS together, with, yep, you guessed it, 10 fighters.
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I's BeFree
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Posted - 2010.11.30 14:05:00 -
[22]
What you should be doing if you have a tengu with fighter support is have the fighters kill the BS while the tengu takes care of the small stuff.
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Salasilm
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Posted - 2010.11.30 21:25:00 -
[23]
I guess it takes some time to get used to drones but after playing a bit around with Chimera + 2x Dominix (with T1 sentries) I must admit that I'm not as happy with the setup as I was with Chimera + 2x Abbadons back in the south. Granted Abbadons had T2 guns and were using imperial Multifreq most of the time without any local tank so Gank with capital letter against proper racial enemy.
Main 'problem' seems to be managing that many drones, as when new wave spawns I'll need to grab my sentries (if they get agro), launch them again and put them again on 'assist' or 'guard' of 'lead' guy who designates targets. I had similar problem in the south as well, where carrier just was sitting there with fighters out and providing remote reps and cap transfer to gank bs, so in reality I was just managing 2 accounts and glanced every once in a while at carrier if any of the fighters is taking excsessive damage. Plus ofc need to keep an eye on local that smears the attention I can pay to stuff over one more thing.
Pure turret ships are a bit easier to manage. 1-2 groups of guns, select target, push the button. Drones - some stuff like return and attack can be covered by shortcuts fortunately, but some actions still need navigating the menus.
Unfortunately it seems that Hybrids suck in general. I could ofc just field the same gank abbadons I did in the south. How bad is the EM+thermal against guristas actually. Lets say 900 dps of EM + Thermal vs 600 dps of Kin + Thermal against guristas. Would the resulting killspeed be roughly the same ?
Abbadon setup I used was
8x Tahyion II (imperial multi)
1x Sensor Booster II, 2x Tracking Computer II, 1x Invul II
4x Heatsink II, 2x Tracking Enchancer II, RCU II
3x Shield resist rigs
With my skills and without implants it's 900 dps. Can use 75 m3 of drones as well but I usually just ignored that ability. Tanks about 1000 dps with one capital remote shield transfer on it.
Dominix I currently use (with sucky skills)
6x 350 mm Railgun (antimatter)
3x Omnidir Tracking link 1x Kin 1x Thermal hardener
1x Damage Control II 2x Tracking Enchancer II 4x Mag Field Stab II
2x Sentry damage rigs
With my skills it should do about 600 dps (Warden I). Max skills and Grade II it should do around 900. Tanks about the same as Abbadon if boosted by carrier.
Any suggestions ?
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Salasilm
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Posted - 2010.12.01 09:45:00 -
[24]
What about Raven.
With Javelin torpedoes and 3-4 painters it seems pretty decent on paper, although I imagine that killin small stuff might be problematic. The range with javelins seems to be pretty reasonable as well, around 65 km or so.
Those of you with experience in both gank Raven and Domi can perhaps comment which is better for guristas.
Raven setup I'm considering is
H: 6x Siege II (javelin) 2x Something
M: 4x Painter II 2x Invul II (or invul + sensor booster)
L: 4x BCU II 1x Signal Amp II
Rigs: 2x Hyrdaulic Bay 1x Fuel cache
770 dps (all kinetic) with my skills. Can get around 870 dps if target is under 40 km, assuming it's worth wasting 10 sec for ammo switch. That is before any drones. In real life EVE unfortunately missiles have travel time so I would lose chunk of that on paper dps as wasted volleys. Painter II bcos it's cheaper and has same stats as PWNAGE. |
Alpha Wolfgang
Caldari
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.01 19:31:00 -
[25]
like previously posted, the best combo ive seen so far is carrier, drake, and tengu. gets the job done quick. add more carriers and it goes even quicker. the drake and tengu take out all sub BS ships right away.
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Salasilm
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Posted - 2010.12.02 11:12:00 -
[26]
Tried the Javelin torp Raven with 4 painters in gurista sanctums. Ended up being disappointed with it - a bit shortish range even when properly rigged - around 55 - 57 km in reality, small clip size and even with 4 painter crapish damage on sub battleship class hulls. Ammo is .. well .. pricier than I expected, with about 1200 isk per torp in Jita. Not that essential ofc as it takes isk to make isk but still ...
Kept the rest of the setup for now and switched to fury cruise missiles. Lost a bit in the on paper dps, but it seems to work better for me for now. Lower RoF so easier to manage as well when multiaccounting. 4 painters make em hit smaller sutff 'hard enough', although I should switch out the rocked fuel cache rig for rigor. Kinda like the missile speed rigs, as it makes me waste less volleys. With missiles going 10 km/s and RoF of about 7 sec I will not waste volleys if target is closer than ~65 km.
Seems to work a bit better than Domi's for me for now. Added range of missiles is a bit safer as well, as I can be aligned and up to speed with all my ships without drifting out of engagement range.
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Hybok
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Posted - 2010.12.02 11:59:00 -
[27]
well , just use the learning SP to train for t2 sentries , then triple carrier >>>>>
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Sfynx
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.12.03 22:03:00 -
[28]
Sentry carriers in anomalies will cost you a lot of drones in every GTFO moment, assuming you start aligning to your safehouse after you land, and not after hostiles show up.
Anyway, it sounds quite dangerous to me if you wanna keep your drones.
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Salasilm
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Posted - 2010.12.16 06:12:00 -
[29]
I ended up with Nighthawk, Raven (cruise) and Malestrom (1400 mm) so a combination that seems to work for me reasonably well. Malestrom pilot has relatively crappy gunnery skills, but has he has Minny BS 5 then it's not too bad. Seems to work a bit better than just sitting with him at POS and assigning fighters. I kinda like artillery regardless of crap dps as it has slow enough RoF to make managing 3 accounts reasonably easy. Should give a try to a Tempest as well, as it should have a bit faster RoF.
Not that happy, as isk/h is still not as good as it should be, but getting 20 - 25 mil / tick over 3 chars. In sansha anoms was able to pull off about ~35 mil / tick over 3 chars.
Main issue when comparing to Tahyions in Sansha anoms, is that artillery does about the same job with 3x longer RoF. This should improve with skills ofc up to about half of effectivity of Tahyions against Sansha. Second main issue seems to be exceptionally low tracking even with 2 tracking enchancers. Once stuff gets closer than 30 km it's 'under the guns' most of the time.
Nighthawk is very good at killing anything small and able to scramble, Raven just picks a BS and shoots at it until it dies and Maelstrom tries to pick targets it can one volley - Frigates and up to BC with low transversal.
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Sandrestal
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Posted - 2010.12.16 15:54:00 -
[30]
Salasilm, try switching the 1400's on your Mael to 1200's and see what you think. 1200's have a little less dps per salvo but factor in better tracking, better rof and 2x magazine size I think you will find ships go down faster over-all.
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