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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2010.11.24 18:13:00 -
[1]
There's a general consensus that ECM drones are bordering on being overpowered (I'm trying very hard not to say anything too controversial here), but given CCP's talent at rebalancing any nerf would probably render them useless.
Instead, I'd like to propose a slight rebalance which would solve a lot of the problems associated with them:
ECM Drones have a jam strength of 0 for their *first* cycle after being deployed. They have their current jam strengths for every subsequent cycle.
What does this do? Instantly remove the 'scoop-redeploy until I get a jam' cheese that is currently possible, as well as giving the opposition more time to react when ECM drones are deployed (kill those NAO)
It preserves the general usefulness of ECM drones as damage mitigation throughout the course of a fight, as well as allowing for equal GTFO ability after this first twenty seconds has passed, which just means that you need to be planning ahead a bit more if you're counting on using them in that capacity.
So, in short, ECM drones are still useful but not OP, everyone wins. Right? 
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.11.24 18:55:00 -
[2]
have you ever looked how low the actual jamming strengths of ECM drones are? the only thing that makes them somewhat useful, is the fact that you get 5 dice throws with a flight of them.
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2010.11.25 06:47:00 -
[3]
And that's why I'm not proposing modifying their current jam strength, with which they work quite well, as most pvpers will attest to.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.25 07:28:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: darius mclever
have you ever looked how low the actual jamming strengths of ECM drones are? the only thing that makes them somewhat useful, is the fact that you get 5 dice throws with a flight of them.
You are kidding, right? The jamming strength of ECM drones is high, especially if you consider it only uses some drone space. Obviously if you look at the strength of only 1 drone it isnt too high, but it is completely ******ed to do that.
Just change them to breaking locks like ECM burst, but not keeping them broken. Right now ECM drones are very good for both winning your fight and for getting out of your fight, make them tools mainly for getting out.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.11.25 09:20:00 -
[5]
They are not borderline, they are so far across the border as to be considered expatriated.
Scoop/Deploy is a very minor part of the OP'ness of the things, the fact that anyone and a majority of ships can use them is what breaks them - they represent eWar capability with no significant ISK/fitting/skill sacrifice.
In short: Your solution will not do anything.
What needs to be done:
All eWar drones should be revamped to behave like actual eWar with lots of buffing for most of them.
* Introduce a midslot module (eWar Drone Link) that is necessary to even deploy them and acts as a booster for them as well (think signal amplifiers).
* Introduce electronic skills to use this module similar to what is currently required for actual midslot eWar. Increases potency of boost provided.
One can now setup any ship to act as an eWar platform by making the customary Eve sacrifices: time (skills) and fittings (module requirement).
Combine with a doubling, or close to, of all dronebays on all ships and bob's your uncle.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.11.25 09:37:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
They are not borderline, they are so far across the border as to be considered expatriated.
Scoop/Deploy is a very minor part of the OP'ness of the things, the fact that anyone and a majority of ships can use them is what breaks them - they represent eWar capability with no significant ISK/fitting/skill sacrifice.
In short: Your solution will not do anything.
What needs to be done:
All eWar drones should be revamped to behave like actual eWar with lots of buffing for most of them.
* Introduce a midslot module (eWar Drone Link) that is necessary to even deploy them and acts as a booster for them as well (think signal amplifiers).
* Introduce electronic skills to use this module similar to what is currently required for actual midslot eWar. Increases potency of boost provided.
One can now setup any ship to act as an eWar platform by making the customary Eve sacrifices: time (skills) and fittings (module requirement).
Combine with a doubling, or close to, of all dronebays on all ships and bob's your uncle.
Thats not too bad make it so to use ecm drones you need the skills to use the ecm modules and so on
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.11.25 11:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: darius mclever
have you ever looked how low the actual jamming strengths of ECM drones are? the only thing that makes them somewhat useful, is the fact that you get 5 dice throws with a flight of them.
You are kidding, right? The jamming strength of ECM drones is high, especially if you consider it only uses some drone space. Obviously if you look at the strength of only 1 drone it isnt too high, but it is completely ******ed to do that.
Just change them to breaking locks like ECM burst, but not keeping them broken. Right now ECM drones are very good for both winning your fight and for getting out of your fight, make them tools mainly for getting out.
EC-300 have a strength of *1*. what makes them relatively powerful is the 5 chances of a jam per cycle. and a flight of hobgobs with some skills is about 100dps. so it is a decent trade of dps for some unreliable chance of getting a jam.
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
* Introduce a midslot module (eWar Drone Link) that is necessary to even deploy them and acts as a booster for them as well (think signal amplifiers).
This would further gimp the already mid slot gimped Caldari ships.
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
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Posted - 2010.11.25 16:16:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
* Introduce a midslot module (eWar Drone Link) that is necessary to even deploy them and acts as a booster for them as well (think signal amplifiers).
This would further gimp the already mid slot gimped Caldari ships.
Not really, it just gives you a choice. Either you get EM drones, or you get a better tank or whatever.
---
Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser:
http://gemblog.nl/skill/
Also a spy. |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.11.25 16:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Gemberslaafje
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
* Introduce a midslot module (eWar Drone Link) that is necessary to even deploy them and acts as a booster for them as well (think signal amplifiers).
This would further gimp the already mid slot gimped Caldari ships.
Not really, it just gives you a choice. Either you get EM drones, or you get a better tank or whatever.
you do notice that normal shield tanked ships have 5-6 mid slots?
mwd, point, that drone module. suddenly you have just 2 slots for your tank.
have fun squeezing in the cap booster, invul, shield booster, especially on ships like the ferox or the cyclone, which only have 5.
i would bet that 75% of the whole ECM whine is psychologically. people remember the times more where they missed a kill/died because of jamming, than the remember the times when they killed the target despite them having ECM (drones).
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
This would further gimp the already mid slot gimped Caldari ships.
I fly mainly Amarr so I feel your pain at having 2-3x the mids than I am used to :D
If we combine it with a general boost to all the eWar drones so they all have function then a midslot is a cheap sacrifice.
Imagine being able to web a target 50km distant or be able to damp/paint/disrupt a target as if you were in a specialised eWar ship.
Originally by: darius mclever
you do notice that normal shield tanked ships have 5-6 mid slots?
mwd, point, that drone module. suddenly you have just 2 slots for your tank...
And armour tankers have to give up tons of range/damage (comparatively) to fit tank .. your point being?
Come to the Cruiser/BC (ie. Rupture/Hurricane) fights in the FW areas, the suns are literally blotted out by ec-xx drones with perhaps 20% of total swarm being damage drones.
If they weren't a problem then they wouldn't be the default choice for the vast majority of pilots/ships/fits .. excessive/mandatory use of any one ship or module is and always has been a clear indication of something being broken.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:36:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Come to the Cruiser/BC (ie. Rupture/Hurricane) fights in the FW areas, the suns are literally blotted out by ec-xx drones with perhaps 20% of total swarm being damage drones.
If they weren't a problem then they wouldn't be the default choice for the vast majority of pilots/ships/fits ..
because many people want to avoid the loss and hope that their EC-X get a lucky jam in so they can leave. I can remember plenty of fights where the EC-300s didn't safe me and other fights where they cleared of the tackle so i could warp at 5% shield after being shot by 30.
Quote:
excessive/mandatory use of any one ship or module is and always has been a clear indication of something being broken.
one of the weakest arguments ever. that didn't work as argument for the drake nerf either.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: darius mclever
because many people want to avoid the loss and hope that their EC-X get a lucky jam in so they can leave...
I am not talking about solo/duo fights but full scale gang/fleet fights. EC-xxx can and hence are used as replacements for (or worse, in conjunction with) actual ECM boats. If it was limited to solo/duo engagement then I could care less.
Originally by: darius mclever
one of the weakest arguments ever. that didn't work as argument for the drake nerf either.
The what now? Apart from all the "OMGtheDrake" idiot threads I have not seen any official mention of it being changed/nerfed.
At any rate, I am not sure what other mechanism you think exists to help identify broken objects in/with the game.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: darius mclever
because many people want to avoid the loss and hope that their EC-X get a lucky jam in so they can leave...
I am not talking about solo/duo fights but full scale gang/fleet fights. EC-xxx can and hence are used as replacements for (or worse, in conjunction with) actual ECM boats. If it was limited to solo/duo engagement then I could care less.
ever considered smart bombs?
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DeadNite
Caldari
The Inferno Legions
SCUM.
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Posted - 2010.11.26 00:06:00 -
[15]
Anything when introduced in huge numbers will seem overpowered.
Solution
Don't allow someone to enter the system/undock/login if:
Someone in the same corp is already on the field.
Someone in the same alliance is already on the field.
Someone in the same ship is already on the field.
Someone fitted with the same High/Medium/Low module is on the field.
Someone with the same drones is already on the field.
If two players jump/undock/login at the same time(exact same) then both players ships and pods are destroyed.
I think that this combined with moving to a Rock/Paper/Scissors(Best of 5?) only combat system would significantly balance the problems we are having in EVE at the moment. |
Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2010.11.26 04:22:00 -
[16]
My experience with ECM drones is limited to fairly small gang combat (one to two ships on each side) where the scoop-redeploy trick can make ships effectively unkillable unless you get lucky with bumping, or alternatively be used to keep one ship completely out of the fight - and as such 'fixing' that issue is the primary goal of my suggestion.
ECM drones are already fairly balanced by their low EHP - if I have time to get my guns/missiles/drones on them, they're removed from the field in short order. This is impossible when they're being scooped and redeployed to get guaranteed jams however. Admittedly I don't have experience with ECM drones in every context, and slight re balances always seem like a better choice than radical reworking (since when has ECM been limited to specialized ships? It's only more effective on them) which is why I tried to avoid a more sweeping proposal.
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Gavinat0r
Antares Shipyards
Angry Dogs
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Posted - 2010.11.26 04:52:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Gavinat0r on 26/11/2010 04:52:39
ECM drones are OP as f***. There is no two ways about it. A perfect example of this is the ranis. There is no way any frig can beat a ranis if it has ecm drones, not a chance, unless its really lucky. Some one said that they are balanced by the fact that they have such low ehp, that is so not true. If your in a pvp situation which usually doesnt involve you having a sensor booster, it takes about 12 secs(for a BC) or more to lock the little fu****s and all you have to do is recall them and redeply and you have to lock them all over again.
Some of the situations ive been in Ive been really unlucky to die to them, like getting perma jammed in a bs by a vexor(not that I died to the vexor, I died to the support he brought in), but most of the time you deploy them and you win. I must admit though they are a very handy solo tool, when you either get a jam off and get the fu** away or you dont and you sit there and die.
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2010.11.27 17:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gavinat0r
If your in a pvp situation which usually doesnt involve you having a sensor booster, it takes about 12 secs(for a BC) or more to lock the little fu****s and all you have to do is recall them and redeploy and you have to lock them all over again.
If you read the proposal this is exactly what I'm trying to fix without nerfing ECM drones. Gives you time to lock them and prevents them from being effective *if continually recalled* without nerfing their overall effectiveness.
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