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Tripleboxing two miners + manufacturer

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Phantasmique	Posted - 2010.11.25 14:10:00 - [1] So I want to triplebox eve with two hulk miners ("alts") and with my main being orca pilot/manufacturer/general industry god. Right now my alts are less than 1 day old and I just read about removal of learning skills and 1.6m boost, which obviously affects on their training plan a bit. My main has 3,1m skillpoints (with 2m in learning) in general skills, very very low industry skills. I could boost my main into Orca quite fast after patch, but I don't think it would be wise seeing it takes me over 2 months (I believe) to get my hulks up and running. So perhaps split some points into industry skills? To summary all this up, my general plan is: * Get one orca pilot and two hulk pilots * Manufacture ships (I start with t1 and move slowly to t2 and eventually to t3) * Form private 3 man corp Questions which arised: 1) When I have my own corporate how safe is it to mine in hisec (0.5). Can someone just declare war against my corporation while I mine and pop my orca? (I don't have experience in war declarations.) 2) I don't think personal pos in hisec is wise move, or is it? 3) What is the ideal skill plan to proceed now with the upcoming changes. I still have ~2 weeks to train my alts with double speed. Any tips or suggestions?
Phantasmique	Posted - 2010.11.25 14:16:00 - [2] Oh yeah... I think my plan is to mine until I get my refining skills to max (no idea how long this takes) and then refine all ores at once and start manufacturing some ships. Do I get most of the required minerals from ores mined in hisec? I want to be as selfsufficient as possible.
Phantasmique	Posted - 2010.11.25 14:25:00 - [3] Ah another thing which popped into my mind: would it be wise to train refinery skills on my other hulk alt instead of wasting mains time for that? And also is there some other "mini profession" available on other? I believe manufacturing skills take enough time on themselves.
Greg Huff	Posted - 2010.11.25 15:27:00 - [4] Edited by: Greg Huff on 25/11/2010 15:30:57 First off - Prepare yourself for many replies of people saying don't do it, industry/mining sucks, get out of high-sec, etc... Ignore them. What you're planning is absolutely doable. I've been running a 3-man crew for a while and it works well (just recently added my 4th). Removal of learning skills/boost - just player rumors Orca pilot - train leadership skills for Mining Foreman & Director Hulk pilots - train refining skills. These let you use T2 crystals for better mining. Add Planetary Interaction skills to everyone - easy extra money/cheaper pos fuel POS in high-sec - absolutely, all guns can be offline unless wardeced. War - If someone declares war against you there is 24hr notice before it begins. They can't declare war and insta-jump you. Ship-go-pop - You WILL get jumped in high-sec... eventually. But it doesn't happen all the time. Manufacturing/etc. - This is what your high-sec pos is for. Train all your characters in industrial skills so you can fill as many slots as possible. Minerals - You will need more minerals than you can get in high-sec, but you can get them through the market. Sell extra PI goods and minerals to cover the costs.
Iggep Crestlighter Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.11.25 15:42:00 - [5] Originally by: Greg Huff Removal of learning skills/boost - just player rumors Not a rumor. In any event I also triple box.. actually I have four accounts, but one is my Orca/Hauler and two are Miners/Invention/Research/manufacture and the fourth is just invention/research. Mining/Industry is a great way to earn ISK and a lot of that earning power can be virtually passive. Take the time to get yourself set up and in six months or a year you still have that passive earning power while you get into other things you might want to dip into.
Greg Huff	Posted - 2010.11.25 16:18:00 - [6] Originally by: Iggep Originally by: Greg Huff Removal of learning skills/boost - just player rumors Not a rumor. Color me surprised with a hue of corrected. Thank you. (The CCP decision/announcement is new, but the discussions have been going on for a long time.)
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.11.25 17:31:00 - [7] Originally by: Greg Huff You WILL get jumped in high-sec... eventually. Only if you dont take precautions and fly on autopilot, it can be avoided.
Isthisanalt	Posted - 2010.11.25 21:41:00 - [8] Originally by: Phantasmique Ah another thing which popped into my mind: would it be wise to train refinery skills on my other hulk alt instead of wasting mains time for that? And also is there some other "mini profession" available on other? I believe manufacturing skills take enough time on themselves. You'll want refinery skills on your hulk pilots as you need them to use T2 crystals. The main skills that your orca/manufacturer will need are produciton efficiency, mass production and advanced mass produciton probably to 4. so include those on top of your orca skills. also don;t forget cybernetics 5, to get that mindlink implant. so your orca pilot has a few more skills to get.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate	Posted - 2010.11.26 03:46:00 - [9] Responses 1 - 24hr warning on WARDEC, however can flippers and Suicide ganks probably more likely if you don't **** people off. 2 - Personal POS is good, no need to put guns on it, just strip the it down to bare tower(or if you have the standings remove the tower too) in the 24hr warning time for WARDEC 3 - Due to the Changes in Learning Skills, it might be more profitable to train learning skills until the change, as they will probably train faster than other skills, these are not wasted as when they make the change you can then use the SP that you have been training to use on the skills that you need :)
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.11.26 04:48:00 - [10] I'll second the suggestion to train learning skills above all else with this change coming up. Those SP will be refunded, and training the learning skills as quickly as possible will give you the most SP to be refunded in the window available. You are effectively investing those SP in a term deposit. You'll have more SP in useful skills when they're refunded and spent than if you trained something else in the meantime. Personal POS in hisec is okay if you have a reason to use it. You'll find that you get to a point in your character's development where you need a POS to continue any further in industry. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]

Goodluvins	Posted - 2010.11.26 07:21:00 - [11] Before thinking about a Hsec POS, if you're serious about T3 production in the long term, you might want to reconsider. Find yourself an industrial WH corp. That way, you can anchor an expiramental lab, have access to the gases you will need, run the polymer reactor, and farm the needed sleeper/radar/mag components.
Buga Buga ROMANIA Renegades ROMANIAN-LEGION	Posted - 2010.11.26 07:48:00 - [12] I'm guessing the new changes will allow creation of Hulk alts in like 35days or something? I'm a "Shoot me I suck" specialist.
Haseo Arashi	Posted - 2010.11.26 08:51:00 - [13] Edited by: Haseo Arashi on 26/11/2010 08:55:52 Originally by: Phantasmique So I want to triplebox eve with two hulk miners ("alts") and with my main being orca pilot/manufacturer/general industry god. Right now my alts are less than 1 day old and I just read about removal of learning skills and 1.6m boost tl;dr all the responses but I wanted to make sure you understand that characters will only be reimbursed for skill points spent on learning skills. They arent handing out 1.6 million SP to everyone. that would completely ruin the purpose of doing it. your main will get the SP back, but your 1 day old alts will recieve nothing aside from big stats
Nicky's Tomb	Posted - 2010.11.26 11:13:00 - [14] Edited by: Nicky''s Tomb on 26/11/2010 11:15:00 Originally by: Caldari 5 Responses 3 - Due to the Changes in Learning Skills, it might be more profitable to train learning skills until the change, as they will probably train faster than other skills, these are not wasted as when they make the change you can then use the SP that you have been training to use on the skills that you need :) Can you explain this to me. I honestly can't see how this is the case. Why would learning skills train faster than other skills, they are just time = skill points per skill / skill points rate (as per attributes). The only way you could possibly gain an advantage by training the learning skills before their removal is for the same reason we train them now... to increase attributes. Even on a brand new character I don't honestly see the benefit. Unless I'm missing something. An established character with Level 4 learning skills that starts training the Level 5s will simply be putting skill points into a non-interest account from which they will be returned when the skills are removed. It's a 1:1 ratio, no gain, no loss, just a waste of effort.
Phantasmique	Posted - 2010.11.26 13:12:00 - [15] Thanks for replies everyone! I train industry skills on my main now and rush into orca when I get my skillpoints from learning skills. I also decided to take refining skills to all chars - for hulks because of the mining bonus/requirement and for main because hes the only one who has enough standing with npc factions so I can reach 100% yield. Also, do you have any generally known tips to start producing some ships. I did some fast number crunching yesterday and it seems that if I mine all ores by myself and build a Caracal I lose like 200-300k compared to if I just sell the ores (and don't forget the 40m+ blueprint) - so what's the point? I guess there are specific ships where manufacturing works then or I missed something else... Originally by: Haseo Arashi tl;dr all the responses but I wanted to make sure you understand that characters will only be reimbursed for skill points spent on learning skills. They arent handing out 1.6 million SP to everyone. that would completely ruin the purpose of doing it. your main will get the SP back, but your 1 day old alts will recieve nothing aside from big stats What I meant was they removed the double speed learning bonus until you reach 1.6m total sp from new players.
Nicky's Tomb	Posted - 2010.11.26 14:25:00 - [16] Edited by: Nicky''s Tomb on 26/11/2010 14:26:25 Originally by: Phantasmique Also, do you have any generally known tips to start producing some ships. I did some fast number crunching yesterday and it seems that if I mine all ores by myself and build a Caracal I lose like 200-300k compared to if I just sell the ores (and don't forget the 40m+ blueprint) - so what's the point? I guess there are specific ships where manufacturing works then or I missed something else... I think the only way to make money from manufacturing is. 1) Dedicate yourself to it. 2) Max out skills. 3) Use non-NPC stations to manufacture in. 4) Be really savy with the market. If you do all those things it can become profitable, assuming you are making something that sells well. Otherwise you are probably better off doing the mining, selling the Ore and buying the ship from someone who does do the above things. Of course you may have other reasons for manufacturing. To do it just for the Lolz or because you are in 0.0 and the market is only for the desperate with too much money... 1.3Mil for a frigate etc. etc.
Aldor	Posted - 2010.11.26 15:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Phantasmique Also, do you have any generally known tips to start producing some ships. I did some fast number crunching yesterday and it seems that if I mine all ores by myself and build a Caracal I lose like 200-300k compared to if I just sell the ores (and don't forget the 40m+ blueprint) - so what's the point? I guess there are specific ships where manufacturing works then or I missed something else... I assume that you have an unresearched BPO. The first thing you want to do is research that BPO. You want to research its ME level. The optimal level would be around lvl 3-5 ME. lvl 3 would be around 8 days research lvl 5 would be around 13 days. A good resource is Chruker's website http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/default.php Since you're going to be researching your own BPO's I would definately look at putting up at least a small tower. Put a lab or 2 on there and run some research slots. Also, this may be too late for you, but if all you can afford is one BPO (the caracel) then it'd be better for you to invest in multiple frigate BPO's first and build up to the cruiser. When I started manufacturing I built all frigates (all races) first. Once I could do that I then built all cruisers (all races). Then battlecruisers, etc. You will notice that one product might be selling at a loss in your local hub. This could be for many reasons but usually it is either someone selling products bought from buy orders. They didn't take the time to research manufacturing costs or they don't have perfect refine so melting it down wasn't profitable for them. So they pop it up on the market below manufacturing costs. Or a newbie who thinks that all mined minerals are "free money" and don't think like you did and use current mineral prices in establishing a baseline. You can do typically 1 of 2 things in this case. Wait it out. The market will usually correct itself over time (sometimes a long time). Either stop manufacturing that product or stockpile it until the market corrects and dump your goods on the market. The other option is, if you have the money, buy up all competitive orders that are below your desired profit margin and combine with your stock and put them back on the market. This can be risky since someone could just come on and low ball the market again and eat away your profits. Finally another bit of info. I've said this before in past posts but I'm still a firm believer in this. You might sell more product faster in a hub but your going to have more competition and thinner margins. You could conversely sell in a sub-hub. Each region has either a seperate smaller hub that still has high volume or is a border system that people sell and buy at to another region. Also, if you've got the time and patience you could manufacture at system A and then take your products (or courier) to systems B, C, D, & E. If you sub-hub sell or distribute your goods you have the possibility of higher margins and less competition (or none at all) but you also lose the fast turnaround. Hopefully this helps!
Greg Huff	Posted - 2010.11.26 15:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Nicky's Tomb Edited by: Nicky''s Tomb on 26/11/2010 11:15:00 Originally by: Caldari 5 Responses 3 - Due to the Changes in Learning Skills, it might be more profitable to train learning skills until the change, as they will probably train faster than other skills, these are not wasted as when they make the change you can then use the SP that you have been training to use on the skills that you need :) Can you explain this to me. I honestly can't see how this is the case. Since there are still about 3 weeks before the change takes place he's still operating under the low attribute levels. Increasing attributes increases the rate of skill point gain. Rather than plodding along training skills at a slow pace he's better off training skills that allow him to earn points faster. Then redistribute those points when the change occurs. The problem is that all the stock Learning skill books have been removed from the market. With only player-owned books left the prices are going to shoot up (some already have) and some books will not be available.
Halborn Celtic Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2010.11.28 02:09:00 - [19] I currently mine with 2 hulks and an orca. What you are proposing is perfectly do-able. I myself use my minerals for making capital fighter drones and soon freighters. My advice to you is before you settle on what to make research the market. There is no point building stuff that you cant sell. I find ships are very hard to make a profit from. And if there is a profit it is tiny. The most important figure you need to know is the PPH or the profit per hour. I.e how much profit will you make from the item you are building. Ships are really low around 50-100k PPH for any ships like drakes. Modules/Ammo/Drones are good markets to look into. They generally have less manufacturing time and sell better (because they are used up alot more than hulls). You should train one of your guys with trade skills. The tax'es and brokerage fees will destroy the profits if not. Skills like Accounting and Broker Relations are essential at IV minimum. In regards to the POS. Do not use it unless you can fully use the extent of its uses. A small pos will probably cost you 50-60mil a month to keep fueled (maybe more with PI prices going up). If you can supply it yourself you'll save alot of money. Something worth mentioning to you is that an Orca has Corp Hangar Bay. This is significant because it cannot be scanned by other pilots. Thus it makes the likelyhood of being jumped in highsec far less likely than if it was in your cargohold. For training on your alts deffo train learning for now. Even if its only rank 1. You'll be training faster than if you didn't atleast until the new changes come in. Any sp you trained on learning will be re-imbursed to you when they are removed so you can simply re-apply them to a skill of your choice. As For what to train you deffinetly need refining skills on your hulk pilots. They are a pre-requisite for Tech 2 mining crystals which give you more yield/hr. The ore specific skills should be trained to IV and no more. Refining Efficiency would need to be at V. For the Orca Pilot. Train Industrial Command Ship to IV, Mining Director/Foreman to V. You'll need to train for Cybernetics V aswell because its a pre-requisite for the Mining Foreman Mindlink and that is vital Imo as it gives 5% more yield and 50% boost to your ganglinks. I believe that pretty much doubles the effectiveness of using an orca. Alot of text but its all that I have learnt over the years and I hope it helps you :) ------------------------------ CEO Celtic Technologies Inc.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Greg Huff Originally by: Nicky's Tomb Edited by: Nicky''s Tomb on 26/11/2010 11:15:00 Originally by: Caldari 5 Responses 3 - Due to the Changes in Learning Skills, it might be more profitable to train learning skills until the change, as they will probably train faster than other skills, these are not wasted as when they make the change you can then use the SP that you have been training to use on the skills that you need :) Can you explain this to me. I honestly can't see how this is the case. Since there are still about 3 weeks before the change takes place he's still operating under the low attribute levels. Increasing attributes increases the rate of skill point gain. Rather than plodding along training skills at a slow pace he's better off training skills that allow him to earn points faster. Then redistribute those points when the change occurs. The problem is that all the stock Learning skill books have been removed from the market. With only player-owned books left the prices are going to shoot up (some already have) and some books will not be available. Correct. Also if the learning skills that you have 1 or 2 more ranks to get in train at a higher rate than you planned skills due to current attributes. Eg, you have learning skills that use Mem/int, and you have already high attributes in that, but your future plan has skills based on Per/Will like most spaceship command skills, you will get more SP/hr training the learning skills than the spaceship command ones.

Bqali	Posted - 2010.11.30 15:58:00 - [21] Something I don't think has been mentioned is that you want to get standings with the corp that owns the station you refine in. You will want to run missions for them so start early- sometimes it's a long road to get the perfect refine... Pick a station that has base 50% refine. Don't refine mins in a POS if you can help it, but do refine ice if you can manage it!
Aerpe Minmatar Cahoots Foray The Kadeshi	Posted - 2010.11.30 17:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Greg Huff Removal of learning skills/boost - just player rumors I'll say as I told my friend after I did some digging about this matter and was pretty certain it would happen sooner or later, maybe even next exp/patch; - "In your face!" ________________________________ Transporter & Smuggler "Catch me if you can!"
Greg Huff	Posted - 2010.11.30 20:06:00 - [23] Originally by: Aerpe "In your face!" Wow!! What are you? 10?


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