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CCP Stop Dumbing Down the Game

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Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 17:06:00 - [1] Originally by: Brakur Ualkin Back in the old days the character creator was sophisticated and gave you real control over your character attributes and starting skills. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA No. No it did not. It gave you next to zero control over what kind of crap was shoved down your throat. It forced you to make decisions that you did not understand. Quote: Taking away these options was a bad change, and so is the removal of the 2x bonus and learning skills. Now, you do realise that you have more options and informed choice in the new system, and that with the removal of the bonus, you still learn faster than before, right? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 17:59:00 - [2] Originally by: Magron1 I'm with you Brakur....I wont be renewing my subscription and im only sorry I paid so far in advance. Gimme your stuff.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 18:07:00 - [3] Originally by: Magron1 That 'can i have ur stuff' **** is gonna be real thin when tbhere's 12,000 ppl/average logged on and it's not paying the overhead anymore. I've heard ppl claim Eve will go forever, how could it end? Suicide, that's how it'll end. Probably. This is not it, though. People aren't going to mass-quit over a mass improvement. Quite the opposite.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 18:14:00 - [4] Originally by: Magron1 It's not just 'this one' it's the fact that 'this one' locks in their obvious future plans to dumb the game down Except, of course, that it doesn't dumb the game down ù it adds variety and choice. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 18:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Sadian I think what alot of you WoW schleps that keep praising this change don't get is that it's not so much the change itself that is worrisome to older Eve players as much as the mind set behind the change. And what about the older players who like the change and who have never played WoW? Quote: Caving in to player whines has never been a recipe for success in past mmorpgs and has usually had the opposite effect. àolder players who remember that CCP themselves have been complaining about these skills for ages now. They didn't cave to whines ù they simply pulled the trigger on something they have been wanting to do for a very very long time. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 19:00:00 - [6] Edited by: Tippia on 25/11/2010 19:03:20 Originally by: PeHD0M I don't like learning skills, but i also don't like the idea of ccp to remove every difficult choice from the game. I like to use my brain to make choices. I like games, where you can actually make strategic mistakes. Please stop there. That's just it: the learning skills were not a difficult choice, just a thoroughly tedious one. It was an in-game mechanism that only had meta-game effects, which in and of itself shows how stupid they were: they served no useful purpose for the game. Originally by: Zhim'Fufu The change removes variaty and choice from the game. The choice wether or not to train learning skills, when to train them, which ones to train,.. and the variaty in player attributes, skill distribution and sp generation rate. When everyone has it, when everyone says everyone else should get it, when not getting it is a very very bad move, then no ù it is not a choice, and it does not add variety. Quite the opposite. Removing them means people can focus on the things that actually do add variety, and they can choose their own path much more freely and thus creating more customisation and more variation. The skills that create the variety you're talking about are all the other skills ù not the learning ones. That choice and variety is still there, and more freely available than ever. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 19:06:00 - [7] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Tippia It was an in-game mechanism that only had meta-game effects, which in and of itself shows how stupid they were: they served no useful purpose for the game. I suggest you ask CCP to dial your attributes to pre-learning-skills levels, and see how useful you think they are then. That's just it: removing them does not change how useful my character is. They do not affect the game. It only changes how I, the player interacts with CCP. The only effect is out-of-game. It has no purpose, no use, and thus no place in the game. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 19:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Tippia removing them does not change how useful my character is. They do not affect the game. There's an entire devblog about how they are compensating for the change caused by removing them. àand like the skills themselves, these compensations do not change anything related to the effectiveness of the character. It's a meta-game mechanic: how fast do you, the player, get access to new stuff or increase your bonuses? Your character does not change in the slightest. (S)he does not hit for more damage, tank better, fly faster, earn more money ù (s)he is exactly the same. Only your interaction with CCP changes. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 19:43:00 - [9] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Tippia Your character does not change in the slightest. They learn faster. And, the character also gets access to new stuff faster. Again: nothing about that changes your character. You the player get stuff faster. That is all. Your character is just as capable or incapable with or without the learning skills. They have no effect in-game, only out-of-game: you don't have to pay CCP as much money to get to use toy X. Quote: I don't know if you're trolling or just *****ed, but introducing an imaginary difference between your learning attributes and all your other attributes won't achieve anything. All* attributes are like this. I'm not introducing any differences between them. They only affect out-of-game considerations (how long the player has to wait). That's why learning skills are distinctly different from other skills: no other skills affect attributes, and no other skills make zero difference on what you can or cannot do (or how effectively you do it) in-game. You do not lock ships faster because you have higher perception ù your Signature Analysis skill does that, and it does it equally well regardless of your perception attribute. You do not bully more favours out of your agents with higher willpower and/or charisma ù your Negotiation and Connection skills do that, and your attribute values are not a factor in how well they do it. Attributes have no in-game function. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 20:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Crumplecorn Your character also gets the stuff faster. Your character doesn't care, though. You do. Quote: You don't think that skill training happens outside the game do you? It doesn't happen in-game either. It's a meta-game event. That's the whole point: your learning skills does not affect how effective your character is, it only affects this meta-game mechanic. As such it has no place being part of the in-game mechanics. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 20:17:00 - [11] Edited by: Tippia on 25/11/2010 20:19:48 Originally by: Crumplecorn Your character also doesn't care if they can shoot with 2% more damage. àbut your opponent does, because it's something that actually has an effect in-game. Unlike training speed. Whether or not I have Cha 5 or Cha 33 doesn't make any difference in what I can do in the game ù it only changes how long I have to wait before the game lets me do X. Quote: No, really, it does. Meta-game is not in-game, so no. You need to look that term up, because it seems to be confusing you. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 20:36:00 - [12] Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm sure you're opponent will care if you can fly a battleship and he can't all because you trained the learning skills and he didn't. And your learning skills don't make a difference ù you acquiring the Battleship skill does. Since you haven't looked the term up, I'll explain it to you. Learning skills are meta-game skills: they don't change the game, but rather change how changes to the game happen. They change how you play the game, they don't change the game itself. They are one step removed from the game. Originally by: Tippia Learning skills and attributes, however, are. And that's why they need to be removed: because they are in the game, but only affect meta-game mechanics (viz. the acquisition of skills ù the speed of the grind, if you like). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 20:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Crumplecorn You couldn't have acquired it in that time without the learning skills. And the acquisition is a meta-game event, which is all that attributes affect. Quote: Acquisition of skills happens in game too. In most games, yesà kindaà with the grind for XP and all that (but even that is meta to an extent). In EVE, no. Being in-game is not a factor. Quote: And, uh, you would have CCP remove attributes? Hmm. Not necessarily, no. If I were to push the "no meta in my in-game" line of reasoning, implants would have to go, but the attributes themselves can stay. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 21:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Crumplecorn The fact that you don't have to be in game does not make something meta. That's where the 'persistant world' comes in. The game is still there whether you are or not. Yes, but what I'm saying is rather the opposite: the only thing that might possible make XP-grinding in other games non-meta is that you have to actually go gallivanting around the game world and killing stuff to get that XP ù in EVE, not even that excuse for calling the progression non-meta exists (and as you point out, it's not really an argument for or against being meta to begin with). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 21:08:00 - [15] Edited by: Tippia on 25/11/2010 21:07:58 Originally by: Crumplecorn Nothing needs to make it non-meta. The skills are in the game. The attributes are in the game. The timer for skill learning is in the game. The skill queue is in the game. Anything meta is by definition not in the game. Therefore... And by definition, progression is meta. Learning skills affect progression, so they affect that meta-mechanic, and since (as you are so adamant to point out) they exist in-game, that connection is a bad one and should be broken. Removing them fixes that problem quite nicely. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.25 21:42:00 - [16] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Tippia And by definition, progression is meta. Not if progression involves changing your characters in-game properties (i.e. skills and attributes). No, progression is still meta. It still doesn't change the gameplay. What you're talking about is just a rather horrid kind of round-tripping. In-game → changes meta → changes in-game. That last step isn't problematic ù it's what meta-gaming is for, after all. The first step, however, is. Fiddling with stuff in-game for sole purpose affecting the meta-game is bad design. Had the learning skills had in-game effects (i.e. if the above chain had simply been in-game → ingame), it wouldn't have mattered as much ù they would have functioned like all other skills. However, the implementation was such that they affected the meta-game instead at the cost of making useful in-game changes (usually at a point where such changes would have been far more beneficial) made the learning skills themselves a completely pointless and self-serving meta-mechanic for no good reason. I can't speculate how such a short-circuit could have worked, but simply nuking the in-game-to-meta connection fixes that problem anyway. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

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