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[URGENT ISSUE] Do not remove learning skills - it will be very unfair

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Kezbet Massively Mob	Posted - 2010.12.03 12:06:00 - [61] Originally by: Jaylance Ok so we are geting rid of learning skills becouse they dont give instant gratificaiton? That's not why learning skills are being removed. Have you even read the dev blog?
Nuts Nougat SniggWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.12.03 13:04:00 - [62] Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 03/12/2010 13:07:06 Originally by: Mashie Saldana I can't wait to re-allocate all of my learning SP in two weeks time. I'm even training Presence 5 in anticipation of it. This, except I already have presence 5 :V It wasn't that long a train either, even on an achura. +5s ****ing own. Also, supporting this thread anyway to keep up the rage. And because I will have 1 less perc. Edit: http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/learningskills.jpg I'm kinda sad this will be gone soon, I liked this one. ---
Alias 6322A	Posted - 2010.12.03 13:58:00 - [63] Edited by: Alias 6322A on 03/12/2010 13:58:45 The devblog clearly states that the removal doesn't negatively affect most EVE players, and the few it does by an incredibly marginal amount. I went through learning, heck almost all new players do! I'm not going to get close to the returns veteran pilots will but something is better than nothing, and now I actually want to get my alternate account because guess what? I CAN ACTUALLY START USING IT ON DAY 1!!! Incredible, I know! Learning skills killed the game for new players, or came close. Being able to train those basic skills to lvl 1 for webs, ab's, shield and armor tanks...all in the first day mind you...will help new players immerse quickly and easily into EVE and enjoy it! The best part? After the well thought-out process of tutorials and career agents, folks won't then be told "By the way...you need a month of learning skills if you have any intention of making this game worthwhile..." but instead that they can start aiming straight for that cruiser (or titan for the over-achievers, hehe), freighter, or whatever their goal is. EVE is about goals, not prerequisites, and learning was a prerequisite that killed time and fun: items that make a game suck and not worth playing. NOT supported. Good Call CCP!
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.12.03 16:21:00 - [64] NOT supported.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2010.12.03 16:53:00 - [65] Edited by: Skex Relbore on 03/12/2010 16:53:34 NOT SUPPORTED Learnings were a dumb design which sapped peoples will to log in at the worst possible time. Anyone with half a brain and access to EVEmon understood that you had to train at minimum 4/3 and ideally 5/4 if you planned on playing the game for any length of time. In order to maintain an effective learning speed. Further those players who aren't the types to play EVEmon and Forums online ended up screwed in the long run because in many cases they didn't know that they needed those learnings I can only imagine how many people quit due to that. Player retention is all about hooking someone in the first month of play. That's why all MMO's scale exponentially. You want to give lots of little rewards early in the game to get people hooked for the long term. Learning skills broke this by forcing smart players to defer that gratification that leads to attachment. Meaning that they were far more likely to not sub when they learned that they'd have to go weeks or months not gaining more actual ability to play the game. Most skills (read all but learning) add capabilities and options to your character. These capabilities and options are the little dings that generate attachment to the game. Later other factors will pick up the slack social interaction, goal attainment inertia and cause retention. But at the beginning it's all about the little rewards that trigger the emotional satisfaction reactions in our brains. Ideally you want to hook a player before he figures out that it's going to take over a year to train to be an truly effective BS pilot. Rewarding players who are willing to defer gratification is all fine and dandy once you actually hook them. But you have to generate enough emotional attachment in the first place to make such deference palatable. I myself spent the majority of my first year of playing on a int/mem remap. Because I wanted to get all my support skills up to what I considered par and so I could maximize my training time by spending the majority of my time training skills at optimal speed. That deferment would still have existed if learning skills had never existed the only change would be not having to spend a couple months training skills that added no additional capability to my character and as such generated no additional attachment. There are still plenty of opportunities for players to affect their learning speed. Implant, remaps and proper planning. For example a buddy of mine who started playing a couple weeks before me has 7mil fewer sp, Most of that difference wasn't created by the 1.5mil in learning SP difference but rather because he never remapped and haphazardly trained skills as he needed/wanted them rather than planning an optimal training plan in advance. So while I was training skills at 2000+ sp/hr(mostly 2600) he was training at 1750. Learning skills were a bad design, Because they defeat the entire purpose of early game play which is hooking the player and generating an emotional attachment to their character. Further due to the nature of the skill system not training them at the beginning put those players at a permanent disadvantage to those who trained them. So I say good riddance to bad design.
hired goon	Posted - 2010.12.03 17:10:00 - [66] counter-support
CommanderData211	Posted - 2010.12.03 17:56:00 - [67] Why do people keep ranting about the PLEX for remap stuff? It's not happening. CCP released a statement saying that they will not be introducing a mechanic to use a PLEX to remap your characters attributes. Nor will they ever in the future. It has been tabled for discussion. The only things that they are thinking about doing more with PLEX's is cosmetic things that have no impact on actual gameplay mechanics. Stuff like maybe a skin for your ship, or stuff in Incarna. The microtransactions will be there, as they should be for EVE to remain competitive, but they will not hinder or help anyone in any other way than using them to either play for free, or get free money. It's not like they are going to release a super wtfpwn ship that you can only buy with a plex (which honestly wouldn't have any impact anyway because you can buy isk with them) and they most certainly are not doing the remap idea. As for the OP, are you serious?
Larton Dretta	Posted - 2010.12.03 18:14:00 - [68] Supported, because it's really hard to wait extra 5 days before you train anything useful, so you have to sit in the station... go out... turn off the game... I really like when i'm playing my old NES and then i put my controler away and just look at the TV, now that's a challenge! Learning skills are hard, and it's fun to see newbies have no idea about their existance, because they're never mentioned in the tutorials. I think it adds alot of challenge into the game.
Alias 6322A	Posted - 2010.12.03 18:38:00 - [69] Quote: Supported, because it's really hard to wait extra 5 days before you train anything useful, so you have to sit in the station... go out... turn off the game... I really like when i'm playing my old NES and then i put my controler away and just look at the TV, now that's a challenge! Learning skills are hard, and it's fun to see newbies have no idea about their existance, because they're never mentioned in the tutorials. I think it adds alot of challenge into the game. You're telling me that the defense for learning skills is that they make you wait to play the game? How does waiting 5 days add challenge? I see frustration maybe... This right here is why learning skills are useless and need to go.
Quizzicality	Posted - 2010.12.04 02:38:00 - [70] I don't know about you guys, but I've got 4.7m SP in learning skills and I can't WAIT to reassign them! How is it "unfair" that they're "leveling the playing field" so to speak? That means everybody will train skills at the same time (give or take depending on how you spent your allocated attributes), and those veteran players that have trained them with the long term in mind will see their long term goal 3 months' training time or more closer. In short, yeah I spent a month, 2 months, even 3 months training them and that sucks, but I'm getting it all back, so why should I care?
HK 47 Amarr TEMPLAR.	Posted - 2010.12.05 18:26:00 - [71] supported
Corina Jarr	Posted - 2010.12.05 19:27:00 - [72] Originally by: MataHarry Edited by: MataHarry on 26/11/2010 15:26:06 tl'dr - do not let eve turn into Proper text Removing learning skill is unfair towards those people who INVESTED time and patience into developing them. Some people invested into PRESENCE 5, even though they had low charisma attribute, the reason they did it - is because they PLANNED in advance that they would want to train for leadership skills in the future. So they accepted lower training rate in return for future benefit. This decision-making was possible because CCP had A SET OF DEFINED RULES, which prescribes how game will be in the number of years down the road. Right now time spent doing this seems like a waste. Certainly there were similar examples in the past. When CCP changed all probes, a lot of people lost money on their blueprints. And being a reasonable person, I am willing to accept that certain changes are necessary for progression of the game. However there should be a line beyond which CCP should not go. EVE Online is all about decision making, you todayÆs decisions affect your future, but that is only possible if rules are unchanged and clear. The way it looks now is that CCP keeps changing those rules. That habit can have adverse consequences. At least part of EVE's success is attributable to the fact, that CCP has extremely LOYAL base of subscribers. Such changes as remaps, plex for remaps, removal of learning skills will move game to more casual domain, but will dilute base of hard-core loyal players. Hence CCP will have higher volatility of cash flows and higher turnover of player. DO NOT MOVE INTO THAT DIRECTION. NOT BENDING to general market trend, does not mean you are becoming dinosaurs. Rather that company is choosing its own path for success. VOTE FOR NO TO REMOVING LEARNING SKILLS Here is the opposite thread, feel free to check with supporters of learning skills removal 1) they are already being removed. Doesn't matter what people say from this point. 2) if you feel that those many years you had those added attributes were a waste... then you are a fool. 3) have you tried playing all those years without training learning skills. 4) they are already being removed. End of discussion. Deal with it.
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.05 19:44:00 - [73] it hurts newer players more. first off, thre were ways to increace your catch up rate - and while you would never actually catch up fully, you woul, with time, slowly gain on older players. The first was learning skills, the second was implants, the third is the recently introduced remapping. Now most older players trained learning skills to 5/4 skipping empathy and such (5 was the rereque for the tier 2 back then), most older players who pvp don7t use implants unless they are going on a vaccation or somthing and then JC to an implanted clone, and most older players do not really bother with remapping since we hav all the skills we really need and actually find it hard to figure out what to train next. . .'Capital ships 5 or Cloaking 5. . .who cares, I will get both anyway - longer the better so i don't have to think about it' syndrome. The point is, removing learning skills further cements the age to sp aspect of the game. So newer pilots will now catch up slower. But like some have said, it does make training alts a lot easier since wI don't have to invest so much time into them. . . so its win win for the older pilots. Newer pilots will just be that much weaker in the long run - which may benifit the causl player - but the long term stratigic player suffers. And thats the really sad part of all this - that the causal style player (not casual as in plays casually, but casual as the short term player)gets his/her fix faster, but in the long run will either suffer or quit anyway since a mom or whatevr still takes 2 years to train for, the serious HC player who is th type EvE has always appealed to will find the game washed and too 'noob friendly', and the older characters will continue to use EvE as a social networking site with good drama. . . So the older players win, the newer players lose, and eve in the long run loses. . . but hay, its what th newer pilots want, and god knows, CCP wants to keep those folks happy right?
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2010.12.06 05:29:00 - [74] So your point of contention is that Learning skills were a sort of caste system? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Word of Chaos
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.06 10:05:00 - [75] Look, like its been said - 1) its gonna happen, so people should get over it. 2) It hurts th newer players more then the older players - example -Ruah here is my first character by a few months, I did not train learning skills right away, I did not put implants in right away (it was a different game then economicaly), with my alts, I took the time to implant and skill right. While none of my alts have ever caught up, they are getting awful close, an will, given some time, actually pass me. After this patch, they will not pass me. So this cements the ageism that people seem to hate so much in eve. . . which goes against what a lot of the same people who argued so hard for this change, also want to see dampened down with more starting sp and booster implants for noobs and such. . . thats all
Jaizak Aripaik Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.06 15:35:00 - [76] Edited by: Jaizak Aripaik on 06/12/2010 15:35:02 Originally by: Ruah Piskonit Look, like its been said - 1) its gonna happen, so people should get over it. 2) It hurts th newer players more then the older players It WOULD hurt new players if a 40Million SP player was no match for a 100 million SP player, but that's not the case. Once you get the Elite Core Competency Certificate, and train a ship's skills and weapon skills to level 5, skills don't have as big an effect on victory, if any at all. The 100 million SP pilot may fly a larger number of ships, or have access to capitals, or use industry as well as combat, etc, but the 40 million SP pilot can fly an assault ship or HAC just as well as he can. New players may never have more SPs, but that doesn't mean that they can't compete with old players, or even beat them eventually. And as long as new players can compete and win with less SP, there's no reason that they should be able to "pass" older players. -- Jaizak Aripaik __
Testic El'Hed	Posted - 2010.12.06 16:25:00 - [77] Originally by: Skex Relbore Learning skills broke this by forcing smart players to defer that gratification that leads to attachment. So smart noobs trained skills that did not pay off, gratification wise, until after they unsub'd? Wow thats really smart. This argument has always been a joke promulgated by those who either 1) do not understand even the most basic economic principles or 2) want a faster turn-around on slots for character sales (gotta launder that bot money somehow right?) That being said... OP: stfu and stop whining about a change in game mechanics that doesnt mean diddly. Or at least man up and rage quit ffs
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2010.12.06 17:36:00 - [78] It is like with lag ,nobody likes it ,but some noobs would still protest to not remove it from the game...
Massive Dragon HAIL DRAGONS	Posted - 2010.12.06 17:39:00 - [79] i "had" to be circumsized, therefore my children will too.
Nora Skuld	Posted - 2010.12.06 18:25:00 - [80] Originally by: Ruah Piskonit So this cements the ageism that people seem to hate so much in eve. . . People hate that? Really? I thought it was pretty clear from the start that SPs were some sort of loyalty program: subscribers are being rewarded for the time they remain subscribed to the game. If you want more skill points than the vets, you just have to subscribe longer then them. I think it's fair since high SPs just offer more options, not supremacy. Vets are more intimidating because of their knowledge and experience of the game then their superior amount of skill points.
Windjammer	Posted - 2010.12.07 07:29:00 - [81] Originally by: Nora Skuld Originally by: Ruah Piskonit So this cements the ageism that people seem to hate so much in eve. . . People hate that? Really? I thought it was pretty clear from the start that SPs were some sort of loyalty program: subscribers are being rewarded for the time they remain subscribed to the game. If you want more skill points than the vets, you just have to subscribe longer then them. I think it's fair since high SPs just offer more options, not supremacy. Vets are more intimidating because of their knowledge and experience of the game then their superior amount of skill points. Well said, neverthelessàààà
Aphrodite Skripalle Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2010.12.07 07:59:00 - [82] I like learning skills. I dont want get rid of them. I dont care if i am minority, thats my humble opinion. I vote No for removing them. I know the pros and cons. +1
Horizonist	Posted - 2010.12.07 20:48:00 - [83] Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle I like learning skills. I dont want get rid of them. I dont care if i am minority, thats my humble opinion. I vote No for removing them. I know the pros and cons. +1 Friend, they are already going, no voting in the world is going to change that. I have smacked up the learning skills myself, invested tons of time training them, and I am more than happy to see them go.

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