Originally by: Zaratustra

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Why is everyone acting like skillbooks are what made this game complicated?

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Originally by: Zaratustra

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Are you all seriously implying that training some skills to level 4-5, which anyone can do at ANY time, is gamebreaking enough for you to quit?

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Originally by: Zaratustra

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Do you somehow think that the newbies will catch up to you in SP now?

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Originally by: Zaratustra

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Do you not realize that you're getting a boost ALSO by getting the SP you spent that time training REFUNDED INSTANTLY?

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Originally by: Zaratustra

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Do you not see that it evens out the newbs getting them immediately, and you getting a refund?

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Originally by: Zaratustra

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Do you NOT want more people to shoot at and ragequit because of you?

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Originally by: alittlebirdy

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Stuff

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Quote:

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CCP Zulu (our august and esteemed Senior Producer) decided he was totally and completely fed up of being asked when we were going to get rid of learning skills

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Originally by: Zaratustra

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Why is everyone acting like skillbooks are what made this game complicated?
Are you all seriously implying that training some skills to level 4-5, which anyone can do at ANY time, is gamebreaking enough for you to quit?
Do you somehow think that the newbies will catch up to you in SP now?
Do you not realize that you're getting a boost ALSO by getting the SP you spent that time training REFUNDED INSTANTLY?
Do you not see that it evens out the newbs getting them immediately, and you getting a refund?
Do you NOT want more people to shoot at and ragequit because of you?
They are freaking learning skills people. If you're outraged over people not having to learn a few extra attribute points, you really need to re-evaluate yourselves in terms of maturity.

You had a shovel and pail in your sandbox, and now you're ****ed that everyone else is getting a shovel and pail right off the bat for their sandbox?
I'll let you in on a little secret: Everyone eventually gets a shovel and pail for their sandbox. The difference is if people get their shovel and pail faster, you'll have more people to play with in the sandbox with you.

This is a good thing.

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Originally by: Dianabolic

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Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL.

Originally by: Lorieen

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I'm not upset that learning skills are going away what bothers me is:

Quote:

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CCP Zulu (our august and esteemed Senior Producer) decided he was totally and completely fed up of being asked when we were going to get rid of learning skills

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It bothers me cause it just shows if you bother and badger CCP enough you can probably get your way. I think for christmas I should send CCP Zulu a set of water wings so he can keep his head above the surface of all the salty tears that sound like were raining down on him day after day over the learning skills being in game.

Score 1 for crying until you get what you want.

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Originally by: Magnus Orin

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Learning skills taught a new player more than just the learning skills.

They also introduced new players to a very important concept regarding this game:

Forward thinking and time investment.

Learning skills, aside from their attribute bonus, provide players with the incentive to think ahead with their skill planning. They illustrate very clearly that a single player cannot hope to train every skill in Eve in a reasonable time, so you need to think and plan ahead concerning your skill path.

I'm relatively neutral on the proposed change.

I would prefer they stay in, because I feel they ad depth, and the lessons I illustrated above, but I'm also happy to receive a bunch of free points next month to dump into Minmatar Battleship V.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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No, I am a friendly carebear, no-one will rage because of me. :o

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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I'm always up for a survey!

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Originally by: Allestin Villimar

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Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.

Originally by: Torothanax

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Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.

Originally by: Lorieen

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I'm not upset that learning skills are going away what bothers me is:

Quote:

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CCP Zulu (our august and esteemed Senior Producer) decided he was totally and completely fed up of being asked when we were going to get rid of learning skills

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It bothers me cause it just shows if you bother and badger CCP enough you can probably get your way. I think for christmas I should send CCP Zulu a set of water wings so he can keep his head above the surface of all the salty tears that sound like were raining down on him day after day over the learning skills being in game.

Score 1 for crying until you get what you want.

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Originally by: The Grimlife

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this game just fell down a big ****ing hole in my eye's and its going to need a big ladder to get out off it. i wouldn't be suprized if eve now loses alot of players due to this learning skill bull****. there is nothing wrong with the lerning skill format as it is. i never whanted the skills gone and im shore alot off other people didnt. i think we need to have a ingame vote about the learning skills and see just how many people want this change.
i vote leave the skills alone.

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Originally by: The Grimlife

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this game just fell down a big ****ing hole in my eye's and its going to need a big ladder to get out off it. i wouldn't be suprized if eve now loses alot of players due to this learning skill bull****. there is nothing wrong with the lerning skill format as it is. i never whanted the skills gone and im shore alot off other people didnt. i think we need to have a ingame vote about the learning skills and see just how many people want this change.
i vote leave the skills alone.

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Quote:

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null

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Originally by: The Grimlife

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It bothers you that the majority of the community
How do we know that the majority asked for this. all we know is what ccp tells us.

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Originally by: Magnus Orin

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Learning skills taught a new player more than just the learning skills.

They also introduced new players to a very important concept regarding this game:

Forward thinking and time investment.

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Originally by: Magnus Orin

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Learning skills taught a new player more than just the learning skills.

They also introduced new players to a very important concept regarding this game:

Forward thinking and time investment.

Learning skills, aside from their attribute bonus, provide players with the incentive to think ahead with their skill planning. They illustrate very clearly that a single player cannot hope to train every skill in Eve in a reasonable time, so you need to think and plan ahead concerning your skill path.

I'm relatively neutral on the proposed change.

I would prefer they stay in, because I feel they ad depth, and the lessons I illustrated above, but I'm also happy to receive a bunch of free points next month to dump into Minmatar Battleship V.

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Originally by: 000Hunter000

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Having done them was a sign to other (leading) members in ur corps u were there to stay, or atleast to stay in the game for a while.

I would always take a player who had done the learningskills more seriously as one that didn't do them 'cuz it was so boring'.

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Originally by: Fulkurth

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Originally by: alittlebirdy

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Stuff

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To be fair, a little birdy told me - you fail

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Originally by: Black Dranzer

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The slippery slope argument is a weak one. Why? Allow me to invoke my personal favourite kind of reasoning, reductio ad absurdum!

So we shouldn't remove learning skills, because that's making the game easier, and that could lead to skill times halved, free **** given out, etc.

Okay, let's take this to the absurd.

We should never buff anything, because if we do, before we know it every ship is going to have the DPS output of a titan.

Actually, we should never try to balance anything, because the ultimate outcome of balance is perfect equality; Each step towards balance is a step towards removing individuality in ships and modules. Before you know it, it doesn't matter what ship you fly because they all do the same damage because they're perfectly "balanced".

Also, we should never add new features, because that might lead to pointless crap being piled on perpetually which could make other mainstream features redundant. They could introduce a new source of minerals which completely kills mining.

We should also never attempt to improve the user interface, because that would attract the kind of people who would not play Eve because the interface is bad. Suddenly you've got a bunch of console players complaining that the UI isn't simple enough and CCP caters to them making combat a one-button affair that autoplays itself. Fight any attempt to make the UI more accessible!

You can take any change and argue that it leads to a slippery slope where everything sucks.

Therefore, we should never change Eve, ever. For any reason. Except to fix bugs. No, actually, we'd better not fix bugs either, because they could become creative uses of gameplay mechanics, and we don't want to take out established things. You don't want to cater to the people whining about bugs, those pussies. They should HTFU or GTFO.

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Originally by: Lorieen

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I'm not upset that learning skills are going away what bothers me is:

Quote:

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CCP Zulu (our august and esteemed Senior Producer) decided he was totally and completely fed up of being asked when we were going to get rid of learning skills

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It bothers me cause it just shows if you bother and badger CCP enough you can probably get your way. I think for christmas I should send CCP Zulu a set of water wings so he can keep his head above the surface of all the salty tears that sound like were raining down on him day after day over the learning skills being in game.

Score 1 for crying until you get what you want.

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Originally by: Culmen

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Char 1 has attributes specced for combat, char 2 has int/mem for science and industry.

Char 2 doesn't need to train ship or guns skills, he can just fly the shuttle between factories and labs while char 1 does the hauling.

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Originally by: Dian Rasd

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Originally by: Culmen

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Char 1 has attributes specced for combat, char 2 has int/mem for science and industry.

Char 2 doesn't need to train ship or guns skills, he can just fly the shuttle between factories and labs while char 1 does the hauling.

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And that is somehow different from having two characters now?

The problem you're seeing has nothing to do with learning skills and everything with the rampant alt-usage in eve.

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Originally by: Dian Rasd

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Edit:
I think I got your point. You bemoan that single account alts now can be made easier.

Well, more power to single account users I say, I hate multiboxing.


Edit2:
Point is that to train for practically anything you'd train at least some learning, which makes it a pointless timesink because it is mandatory.
The only merit learning skills have in my eyes is being an isk sink.

Maybe it would be time to bump up npc corp taxes again to compensate? And kickstart the next round of whining of course.

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Originally by: Culmen

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Edited by: Culmen on 27/11/2010 03:25:32

Originally by: Dian Rasd

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Edit:
I think I got your point. You bemoan that single account alts now can be made easier.

Well, more power to single account users I say, I hate multiboxing.


Edit2:
Point is that to train for practically anything you'd train at least some learning, which makes it a pointless timesink because it is mandatory.
The only merit learning skills have in my eyes is being an isk sink.

Maybe it would be time to bump up npc corp taxes again to compensate? And kickstart the next round of whining of course.

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That's pretty much my point, glad you see where I'm coming from.

But as stated I agree, learning skills needed to go, it was just a matter of HOW.
I'm glad their going, heck I'm probably benefiting more then the any newbie.

But I feel the way learning skills are going is taking something out of the game and not putting anything back.
It's a bad precedent, no game grows by REMOVING stuff.
ADDING stuff, yes, REPLACING stuff arguably better, but not REMOVING stuff.

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Originally by: DA6ONET

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*** Warning - Long Post ***
From what I have found nobody has directly addressed this point. Someone please correct if the math is grossly wrong.

Essentially what it boils down to is this. Take a character, 5/5/5 (learning/advanced learning/implants). Optimize primary/secondary attributes for whatever skill he/she is learning (base 15/9).

Skillpoints per hour currently 2772

After they remove learning skills and raise base level, character loses 1 point on the top end (learning skills had that 10% bonus per 10 base) so 32 max primary instead of 33.

Skillpoints per hour after patch ~2700

Now that's about 630k skill points per year loss. That I feel most people with 5/5/5 could live with.

Take the same character but do 0/0/5, essentially what the new system would be for any new player striving to be the most efficient for their skill plan.

Their optimized rate would currently be somewhere around 1780 skill points per hour.

After the update that same character now trains at ~2700sp/hour, a 915+ point swing per hour. That equals over 8,000,000 skill points more per year. So giving a 5/5/5 player 5 million SP for learning skills once and giving someone who didn't do jack with learning 8mil per year more seems like a very drastic change.

I understand the very strong pro of helping new players get into the game faster, but EVE's subscriber base has been growing, not shrinking, so the business need for this move is diminished.

The developer's blog that addresses the issue does not in my opinion adequately address arguments for and against the change other than learning skills were not in line with the producers intent of skill progression when they were introduced and this is karma coming full circle.

Obviously it is CCP's prerogative to bring the game back in line with their goals. In the long run I feel this will be more of a good thing for the game and the community than a bad thing. Who knows though, perhaps years from now the developers will want to implement a new time management choice option similar to the learning skills.

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Originally by: alittlebirdy

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Wait a boost, what boost, the time I did not have the skills I trained slower, so now I got ass ****ed while noobs will not need to take the time, lower sp/hr even need to log on to change skills as I and many others did... I got no boost I took a lose over a noob... dumbass

Kinda funny how people omg plex... bad bad bad... o your all over reacting...

O hey we gona plex for remap.

O hey we gona plex for in game items...

o hey learning skills take to long to train we gona axe them...

O hey we cut train time in 1/2 on skills...

and so on and so on...

you OP fail.

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Originally by: RaTTuS

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and this needed another thread because

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Originally by: Forum Guy

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Originally by: Culmen

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Edited by: Culmen on 27/11/2010 03:25:32

Originally by: Dian Rasd

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Edit:
It's only removing something that should never have been added in the first place. And they are replacing the attribute points that you are losing from the learning skills removal.

If you read the dev-blog then you'll see they have considered everything and are removing them in the fairest way they can.

Having a tumor is adding something but it's not something you would want to keep.

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I disagree, the learning skils (at lvl 5 ) give u 12 points PER atrit, not in total over all atrits , tbh i was so outraged i almost removed all 3 my accounts, feeling f*ed in my behind hard, but reading more about in this tread,i have a question, do i understand correctly that they half the learning time per skill ingame? So a rank 4 becomes a rank 2? If thats true then it compensates good versus the point loss...

Signing off,


CT Tarantula

Gallente ship are the best :P

Evil Taranis :P

Originally by: Culmen

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My reason for opposing learning skill removal in it's current form is this:
It makes attributes and attribute remaps pointless.

Supposing you have a char with learning skills learned.
You can choose either to setup your attributes for learning Combat or Combat support skills, or you can choose to setup your attributes for industry and science skills.

This is a major choice, you will not be able to re-spec for 12 months.
You can't just use another char on the account because he hasn't trained learning skills.
So you have to hunker down and make a tough choice.

Now with learning skills removed, this difficult decision is removed entirely.
Char 1 has attributes specced for combat, char 2 has int/mem for science and industry.

Char 2 doesn't need to train ship or guns skills, he can just fly the shuttle between factories and labs while char 1 does the hauling.

You can switch between the two attribute sets in the time it takes to log on and log off a character.

This isn't forcing you to make a choice, the choice doesn't matter.
And reducing complexity is a step in the wrong direction.

I have no problem with them removing learning skills, heck I support it.
But I do have an issue HOW they are removing them.
If they added in something that didn't dumb down attributes, I'd be all for it.
But CCP took the sledgehammer over scalpel approach, and I resent that.

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Originally by: Atius Tirawa

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I am not against the changes because it does not give anyone an advantage - and does not shrink the distance between newer and older players.

But

I saw learning skills as a form of quality control: If you are not patient enough to deal with a month of learning skills - then you are probably not what the game needs. But hay, I guess eve is a lot easier now for newer players or something.

Basically, the old learning curve joke that circulated around here over half a decade ago is slowly flattening out - and some of us like to keep it hard - because it was hard for us and thats what makes us better.

But hay, does not change a thing.

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Originally by: Atius Tirawa

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I am not against the changes because it does not give anyone an advantage - and does not shrink the distance between newer and older players.

But

I saw learning skills as a form of quality control: If you are not patient enough to deal with a month of learning skills - then you are probably not what the game needs. But hay, I guess eve is a lot easier now for newer players or something.

Basically, the old learning curve joke that circulated around here over half a decade ago is slowly flattening out - and some of us like to keep it hard - because it was hard for us and thats what makes us better.

But hay, does not change a thing.

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Originally by: Mme Pinkerton

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not arguing that learning skills made this game complicated.

just that they may have scared away certain types of players I would rather not have in my EVE...

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Originally by: Tres Farmer

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Be happy about the influx of players in ships they have no clue to fly and are even more expensive than now to loose (in relative terms).
- it serves PvP
- it serves Industry
- it serves Mining
- it serves CCP in getting more noobs over that learning-skill-bumper

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Originally by: Guttripper

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Originally by: Tres Farmer

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Be happy about the influx of players in ships they have no clue to fly and are even more expensive than now to loose (in relative terms).
- it serves PvP
- it serves Industry
- it serves Mining
- it serves CCP in getting more noobs over that learning-skill-bumper

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Of course, it makes macro miners getting into Hulks faster than ever - tanking both the mineral market and mining profession. This then hurts the Industrial side of the game, since profits will suffer even worse off. And PvP-ing macros is like fighting a hydra in fantasy games - chop off one head and two more appear.

At least this change will have me consider making some suicidal pilots and run rampant.

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Originally by: Guttripper

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Originally by: Tres Farmer

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Be happy about the influx of players in ships they have no clue to fly and are even more expensive than now to loose (in relative terms).
- it serves PvP
- it serves Industry
- it serves Mining
- it serves CCP in getting more noobs over that learning-skill-bumper

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Of course, it makes macro miners getting into Hulks faster than ever - tanking both the mineral market and mining profession. This then hurts the Industrial side of the game, since profits will suffer even worse off. And PvP-ing macros is like fighting a hydra in fantasy games - chop off one head and two more appear.

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Originally by: CinaneK

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1. Learning skills are going away - means i get free "XY" SP points i spend in learning to spend in other skills?

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Originally by: CinaneK

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2. Learning skills are going away - means, all my bonus points in attributes r going away? F.Ex.: before this i was 29 on perception, after this i loose 5 points from basic learning skill, 4 points from advanced perc. learning skill means i will be only on 20 now ? And more interesting for me, if y means it i will learn now everything slower then before? I knew will be more balanced for newbies right now but the freaky 22 days on skill lvl 4 to 5 (skill whit 5x multiplyer) will be now cca 30-32 days ? :)))

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Originally by: Guttripper

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Of course, it makes macro miners getting into Hulks faster than ever - tanking both the mineral market and mining profession. This then hurts the Industrial side of the game, since profits will suffer even worse off. And PvP-ing macros is like fighting a hydra in fantasy games - chop off one head and two more appear.

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Originally by: Atius Tirawa

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I am not against the changes because it does not give anyone an advantage - and does not shrink the distance between newer and older players.

But

I saw learning skills as a form of quality control: If you are not patient enough to deal with a month of learning skills - then you are probably not what the game needs. But hay, I guess eve is a lot easier now for newer players or something.

Basically, the old learning curve joke that circulated around here over half a decade ago is slowly flattening out - and some of us like to keep it hard - because it was hard for us and thats what makes us better.

But hay, does not change a thing.

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