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Zaratustra People of Random Nature Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.11.26 16:08:00 - [1] Why is everyone acting like skillbooks are what made this game complicated? Are you all seriously implying that training some skills to level 4-5, which anyone can do at ANY time, is gamebreaking enough for you to quit? Do you somehow think that the newbies will catch up to you in SP now? Do you not realize that you're getting a boost ALSO by getting the SP you spent that time training REFUNDED INSTANTLY? Do you not see that it evens out the newbs getting them immediately, and you getting a refund? Do you NOT want more people to shoot at and ragequit because of you? They are freaking learning skills people. If you're outraged over people not having to learn a few extra attribute points, you really need to re-evaluate yourselves in terms of maturity. You had a shovel and pail in your sandbox, and now you're ****ed that everyone else is getting a shovel and pail right off the bat for their sandbox? I'll let you in on a little secret: Everyone eventually gets a shovel and pail for their sandbox. The difference is if people get their shovel and pail faster, you'll have more people to play with in the sandbox with you. This is a good thing.
RaTTuS BIG Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.11.26 16:10:00 - [2] and this needed another thread because -- Join BIG
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2010.11.26 16:12:00 - [3] don't bring reasoning or logic to the table.. you can't fight stubbornness with it New Eden needs a Public Feature/Idea/Bug-Tracker
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.26 16:21:00 - [4] I'm always up for a survey! Originally by: Zaratustra Why is everyone acting like skillbooks are what made this game complicated? No-one is doing this. Some just recognise that learning skills were one of the many many things which make it complicated. Originally by: Zaratustra Are you all seriously implying that training some skills to level 4-5, which anyone can do at ANY time, is gamebreaking enough for you to quit? I don't think I've actually seen anyone say this... Originally by: Zaratustra Do you somehow think that the newbies will catch up to you in SP now? I'm sure they will, given how inefficient I am when it comes to training. Originally by: Zaratustra Do you not realize that you're getting a boost ALSO by getting the SP you spent that time training REFUNDED INSTANTLY? Some people did apparently miss this. Originally by: Zaratustra Do you not see that it evens out the newbs getting them immediately, and you getting a refund? I do. Can't speak for anyone else. Originally by: Zaratustra Do you NOT want more people to shoot at and ragequit because of you? No, I am a friendly carebear, no-one will rage because of me. :o - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
alittlebirdy	Posted - 2010.11.26 16:54:00 - [5] Wait a boost, what boost, the time I did not have the skills I trained slower, so now I got ass ****ed while noobs will not need to take the time, lower sp/hr even need to log on to change skills as I and many others did... I got no boost I took a lose over a noob... dumbass Kinda funny how people omg plex... bad bad bad... o your all over reacting... O hey we gona plex for remap. O hey we gona plex for in game items... o hey learning skills take to long to train we gona axe them... O hey we cut train time in 1/2 on skills... and so on and so on... you OP fail.
Fulkurth	Posted - 2010.11.26 16:58:00 - [6] Originally by: alittlebirdy Stuff To be fair, a little birdy told me - you fail
Lorieen AQ Militis Seprentia	Posted - 2010.11.26 17:02:00 - [7] I'm not upset that learning skills are going away what bothers me is: Quote: CCP Zulu (our august and esteemed Senior Producer) decided he was totally and completely fed up of being asked when we were going to get rid of learning skills It bothers me cause it just shows if you bother and badger CCP enough you can probably get your way. I think for christmas I should send CCP Zulu a set of water wings so he can keep his head above the surface of all the salty tears that sound like were raining down on him day after day over the learning skills being in game. Score 1 for crying until you get what you want.
Klatho Cron	Posted - 2010.11.26 17:51:00 - [8] I think i cant agree with even one of your points. Horrible post tbh. I had the intention to answer those, but its not worth it. You got everything wrong from the start, and you arent even close to comprehend whats going on in here, and whats the problem. No, i wont explain it. You wouldnt understand it anyway..
Niccolado Starwalker Gallente Shadow Templars	Posted - 2010.11.26 18:18:00 - [9] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 26/11/2010 18:18:27 Originally by: Zaratustra Why is everyone acting like skillbooks are what made this game complicated? Are you all seriously implying that training some skills to level 4-5, which anyone can do at ANY time, is gamebreaking enough for you to quit? Do you somehow think that the newbies will catch up to you in SP now? Do you not realize that you're getting a boost ALSO by getting the SP you spent that time training REFUNDED INSTANTLY? Do you not see that it evens out the newbs getting them immediately, and you getting a refund? Do you NOT want more people to shoot at and ragequit because of you? They are freaking learning skills people. If you're outraged over people not having to learn a few extra attribute points, you really need to re-evaluate yourselves in terms of maturity. You had a shovel and pail in your sandbox, and now you're **ed that everyone else is getting a shovel and pail right off the bat for their sandbox? I'll let you in on a little secret: Everyone eventually gets a shovel and pail for their sandbox. The difference is if people get their shovel and pail faster, you'll have more people to play with in the sandbox with you. This is a good thing. I am against it because it strips me for 11 skillbooks! Its like losing 11 good friends, and without my skills I feel so naked - so naked! Originally by:** Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL.
Gallians	Posted - 2010.11.26 18:19:00 - [10] Originally by: Lorieen I'm not upset that learning skills are going away what bothers me is: Quote: CCP Zulu (our august and esteemed Senior Producer) decided he was totally and completely fed up of being asked when we were going to get rid of learning skills It bothers me cause it just shows if you bother and badger CCP enough you can probably get your way. I think for christmas I should send CCP Zulu a set of water wings so he can keep his head above the surface of all the salty tears that sound like were raining down on him day after day over the learning skills being in game. Score 1 for crying until you get what you want. Incorrect. Score one for correcting a horrible design mistake that made the game worse and the demise of which a clear majority supports. There fixed it for you.

Jane Langford	Posted - 2010.11.26 18:19:00 - [11] Edited by: Jane Langford on 26/11/2010 18:22:13 Removing the learning skills is just another step to make things easier for new players. When the players are complaining about the changes its not simply because of that one minor change in the system. I think what annoys most "vets" is that over the years eve became more and more newbie friendly and not nearly as challenging as it used to be in the early days. The game has changed a lot since 2003. While Pilots who started back at that time needed weeks just to get the isk together to get a cruiser. These days in the same amount of time as beginner you can easily sit in a Battleship. PvP was a lot more thrilling for ppl as actually losing ships was really expansive and losses did really hurt at that time. I remember times when T2 turrets did cost 10 to 15 million a piece. And without having lv4 missions, BS rats, Moongoo, no mining ships (and so on) 10 million ISK was by far more money than it is today. The much higher income these days already makes the game much easier and by far less challenging and as the game keeps getting easier more and more ******s keep joining the game. On the one hand you can say that we do profit from idiots joining eve and staying at least long enough to rip them off, but on the other hand it can be quite annoying when those idiots end up being in your own corp (most elite corps have quite high recruitment standards, but even that does not allways help). The idea which ppl liked about learning skills is that the patience to train them does pay off (also back in the days there were just the rank 1 training skills, so overall training was a lot slower). Another thing about learning skills and long training time is that quite a lot new players who think skill levels are the most important thing if you want to be able to compete with other players would quit fast, while smart skilled players realise that experience and skill are much more important and that a 2 mil sp char can beat a 50 mil char if you are smart. Also the "vets" might feel a little bit disadvantaged. You can say that anyone who has trained learning skills will also profit from the changes but believe me: "almost no1 who has 80 million sp or more will profit from the changes". Personally i dont really have any skills left which would be useful in any way since i have all skills for the stuff i use at level 5. (so yeah i get my 2 mil sp back which i can put into some skill i do not need.. hooray).... With those things i just scratched on the surface of all the changes made over the years, which keep making anything the "vets" worked for over many years totally meaningless which most likely is the reason why they get vocal everytime when new changes are announced which again will make the game easier for new players.
Magnus Orin Minmatar United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.11.26 18:24:00 - [12] Learning skills taught a new player more than just the learning skills. They also introduced new players to a very important concept regarding this game: Forward thinking and time investment. Learning skills, aside from their attribute bonus, provide players with the incentive to think ahead with their skill planning. They illustrate very clearly that a single player cannot hope to train every skill in Eve in a reasonable time, so you need to think and plan ahead concerning your skill path. I'm relatively neutral on the proposed change. I would prefer they stay in, because I feel they ad depth, and the lessons I illustrated above, but I'm also happy to receive a bunch of free points next month to dump into Minmatar Battleship V. Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you.
Portmanteau CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.11.26 18:37:00 - [13] Originally by: Magnus Orin Learning skills taught a new player more than just the learning skills. They also introduced new players to a very important concept regarding this game: Forward thinking and time investment. Learning skills, aside from their attribute bonus, provide players with the incentive to think ahead with their skill planning. They illustrate very clearly that a single player cannot hope to train every skill in Eve in a reasonable time, so you need to think and plan ahead concerning your skill path. I'm relatively neutral on the proposed change. I would prefer they stay in, because I feel they ad depth, and the lessons I illustrated above, but I'm also happy to receive a bunch of free points next month to dump into Minmatar Battleship V. Are you implying new players cannot learn forward thinking/ time investment from other skills ? you know that's complete BS right ?
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.11.26 18:38:00 - [14] Originally by: Crumplecorn No, I am a friendly carebear, no-one will rage because of me. :o ofc ofc I need a scout for my lo-sec mining project, hit me up in-game Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.11.26 18:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm always up for a survey! I like corn, especially corn on the cob. With butter. Lots of butter. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.11.26 19:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Lorieen I'm not upset that learning skills are going away what bothers me is: Quote: CCP Zulu (our august and esteemed Senior Producer) decided he was totally and completely fed up of being asked when we were going to get rid of learning skills It bothers me cause it just shows if you bother and badger CCP enough you can probably get your way. I think for christmas I should send CCP Zulu a set of water wings so he can keep his head above the surface of all the salty tears that sound like were raining down on him day after day over the learning skills being in game. Score 1 for crying until you get what you want. It bothers you that the majority of the community asked for these changes and CCP wanted to implement these changes as well. This was a real issue that needed to be resolved we argued the case in a rational way. Which is more than I can say for those that want to keep them. This was not some minor issue, it had to be resolved. What were the reasons for keeping them: 1) We want new players to leave because more players increase the lag. 2) I'm going to lose a slight bit of efficiency in my training speed. 3) We did them so everyone else should. 4) They added complexity (this one makes me laugh). 5) They gave you a choice (ok, this one makes me laugh too). So have I missed any? Should there be a number 6?
The Grimlife	Posted - 2010.11.26 19:03:00 - [17] this game just fell down a big **ing hole in my eye's and its going to need a big ladder to get out off it. i wouldn't be suprized if eve now loses alot of players due to this learning skill bull**. there is nothing wrong with the lerning skill format as it is. i never whanted the skills gone and im shore alot off other people didnt. i think we need to have a ingame vote about the learning skills and see just how many people want this change. i vote leave the skills alone.
Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse	Posted - 2010.11.26 19:10:00 - [18] Edited by: Syn Callibri on 26/11/2010 19:11:09 Originally by: The Grimlife this game just fell down a big **ing hole in my eye's and its going to need a big ladder to get out off it. i wouldn't be suprized if eve now loses alot of players due to this learning skill bull*. there is nothing wrong with the lerning skill format as it is. i never whanted the skills gone and im shore alot off other people didnt. i think we need to have a ingame vote about the learning skills and see just how many people want this change. i vote leave the skills alone. Rabble, Rabble, Rabble. /moar crumplepopcorn* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tac-Ops Commander
Vertisce Soritenshi O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.26 19:11:00 - [19] Originally by: The Grimlife this game just fell down a big **ing hole in my eye's and its going to need a big ladder to get out off it. i wouldn't be suprized if eve now loses alot of players due to this learning skill bull. there is nothing wrong with the lerning skill format as it is. i never whanted the skills gone and im shore alot off other people didnt. i think we need to have a ingame vote about the learning skills and see just how many people want this change. i vote leave the skills alone. Spelling and Grammar check are your friend. CCP already had an overwhelming consensus from the community...which is why they are removing learning skills. Don't like it? HTFU or leave. Another vote will not change anything. The people that want to keep learning skills are the minority in this. Quote:** null [center] If you like this sig click HERE. Click http://poll.pollcode.com/ClQHE
The Grimlife	Posted - 2010.11.26 19:12:00 - [20] It bothers you that the majority of the community How do we know that the majority asked for this. all we know is what ccp tells us.

Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse	Posted - 2010.11.26 19:16:00 - [21] Originally by: The Grimlife It bothers you that the majority of the community How do we know that the majority asked for this. all we know is what ccp tells us. ...and how do you know that they didn't? Pot meet Kettle...Kettle meet Pot. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tac-Ops Commander
Frozen Pyress	Posted - 2010.11.26 19:21:00 - [22] @The Grimlife Considering that you are the only troll complaining about the removal of learning skills, I'd say the majority supports the removal of learning skills. I have all learning skills at level 5 and I fully support the removal of the learning skills. I get a huge boost in total SP, keep the same attribute points, and I no longer have to hound new Eve players to train learning skills (many had no clue learning skills even existed, due to them not being injected by default). So, new Eve players will be able to train skills as to how they wish and not be told what to train. Truly a win for everyone (except the trolls, of course).
Gallians	Posted - 2010.11.26 19:25:00 - [23] Majority here, confirming I support learning skills removal.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.11.26 20:03:00 - [24] Originally by: Magnus Orin Learning skills taught a new player more than just the learning skills. They also introduced new players to a very important concept regarding this game: Forward thinking and time investment. You can say the same thing about ignoring the warning when entering lowsec.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.11.26 20:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Magnus Orin Learning skills taught a new player more than just the learning skills. They also introduced new players to a very important concept regarding this game: Forward thinking and time investment. Learning skills, aside from their attribute bonus, provide players with the incentive to think ahead with their skill planning. They illustrate very clearly that a single player cannot hope to train every skill in Eve in a reasonable time, so you need to think and plan ahead concerning your skill path. I'm relatively neutral on the proposed change. I would prefer they stay in, because I feel they ad depth, and the lessons I illustrated above, but I'm also happy to receive a bunch of free points next month to dump into Minmatar Battleship V.
000Hunter000 Gallente Industrial Exploits	Posted - 2010.11.26 21:05:00 - [26] Now, the removal of the learningskills is not something which will make me quit, now don't get me wrong, i don't like it at all, i think it gave the game that lil more depth, if u did the learningskills to a certain level, it meant u took the game seriously enough... U don't have levels in eve, but i always thought of this as the next level. Having done them was a sign to other (leading) members in ur corps u were there to stay, or atleast to stay in the game for a while. I would always take a player who had done the learningskills more seriously as one that didn't do them 'cuz it was so boring'. Anyways, i hope i'm wrong, but i'm just afraid we will get a huge flood of young people who don't take the game very seriously and will quit just as easily as they started. I'm seriously hoping i'm wrong though... ________________________________________________
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.11.26 21:17:00 - [27] Edited by: Forum Guy on 26/11/2010 21:24:53 Edited by: Forum Guy on 26/11/2010 21:18:59 Edited by: Forum Guy on 26/11/2010 21:18:03 Originally by: 000Hunter000 Having done them was a sign to other (leading) members in ur corps u were there to stay, or atleast to stay in the game for a while. I would always take a player who had done the learningskills more seriously as one that didn't do them 'cuz it was so boring'. So if they log in to their character add another learning skill and log out to go and play EQ2 for example. After a few months you met them in game and you say hey I see you've done the learning skills I'm going to take you seroiusly. The old saying springs to mind, 'don't judge a book by its cover'.
alittlebirdy	Posted - 2010.11.26 23:33:00 - [28] Originally by: Fulkurth Originally by: alittlebirdy Stuff To be fair, a little birdy told me - you fail I am sorry the understanding of what is going on is past your level of comprehension. OP's alt? lol haha nice to know ccp caved because people cried... I'm sure they will say "omg joke" but... just lol So when we fixing the lag ccp, removing t2 bpo's cause I mean... this REALLY shows make it easier for noobs if that is the goal... well hot damn, removing t2 bpos will make noobs get into invention that much easier!
Black Dranzer Caldari	Posted - 2010.11.26 23:53:00 - [29] The slippery slope argument is a weak one. Why? Allow me to invoke my personal favourite kind of reasoning, reductio ad absurdum! So we shouldn't remove learning skills, because that's making the game easier, and that could lead to skill times halved, free **** given out, etc. Okay, let's take this to the absurd. We should never buff anything, because if we do, before we know it every ship is going to have the DPS output of a titan. Actually, we should never try to balance anything, because the ultimate outcome of balance is perfect equality; Each step towards balance is a step towards removing individuality in ships and modules. Before you know it, it doesn't matter what ship you fly because they all do the same damage because they're perfectly "balanced". Also, we should never add new features, because that might lead to pointless crap being piled on perpetually which could make other mainstream features redundant. They could introduce a new source of minerals which completely kills mining. We should also never attempt to improve the user interface, because that would attract the kind of people who would not play Eve because the interface is bad. Suddenly you've got a bunch of console players complaining that the UI isn't simple enough and CCP caters to them making combat a one-button affair that autoplays itself. Fight any attempt to make the UI more accessible! You can take any change and argue that it leads to a slippery slope where everything sucks. Therefore, we should never change Eve, ever. For any reason. Except to fix bugs. No, actually, we'd better not fix bugs either, because they could become creative uses of gameplay mechanics, and we don't want to take out established things. You don't want to cater to the people whining about bugs, those pussies. They should HTFU or GTFO.
Barkaial Starfinder Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost	Posted - 2010.11.27 00:34:00 - [30] I have Athazagoraphobia.



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