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[Proposal] Change shield fleet bonus application

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Hack Harrison	Posted - 2010.12.02 09:25:00 - [31] Supported - I want my siege mindlink to give 15% instant, like the armor one!!!
Lucas Quaan Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.12.02 11:48:00 - [32]
Kimiya Alhena Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:22:00 - [33] Edited by: Kimiya Alhena on 02/12/2010 15:23:36 Edited by: Kimiya Alhena on 02/12/2010 15:22:43 Originally by: Ephemeron so what happens if you are fighting in armor, and have a friend keep toggling fleet booster role on and off repeatedly? every time you get 10% shields magically appear in middle of a fight when everyone's in armor You need to understand how shields and armor work in this game, because that's not how either of them work. EVE represents your armor and structure HP this way: Maximum HP - Damage Taken While your shield HP is represented as a single value, Shield Charge. This means that if your maximum armor or structure HP go up, your 'Damage Taken' does not change. Thus, your total armor/structure HP have increased, but only because the maximum changed. As soon as your maximum goes down, they will go down. In comparison, shield charge is not modified by having your maximum shield HP go up. If they moved shield HP to use the same model (Maximum HP - Damage Taken), having a shield boost effect applied would not cause new shields to magically appear out of nowhere, because any damage you take while the booster is active would increase the Damage Taken to your shield, possibly past the limit - such that even boosting your maximum shields would still leave your total shields at 0, because Shield Damage Taken exceeded your Maximum Shields. They could also make it more 'fair' by doing a percentage-based adjustment of your damage taken, so that if you had 100% damage before the effect applied, you have 100% damage after. I don't know if that's necessary, and it's more work, but it wouldn't be hard to do either.
helmeo Redwaffe	Posted - 2010.12.02 16:29:00 - [34] i support this, hate to see my shield goes down every time i jump.
Ogogov Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.12.02 17:12:00 - [35] Originally by: Bagehi Originally by: Ogogov supported. IF armor reps get their effect moved to the beginning of the cycle and armor also gets a magic regeneration feature :) Can shield tanks get an XL extender comparable to the 1600mm plate? Sure, as long as 1600mm plates get their powergrid usage cut by 50% and agility penalty removed :) Quote: Can shield tanks get passive full gamut resist modules comparable to the EANM? Sure! As long as armor gets a great full-gamut active hardener like the Invulnerability field II :) Quote: Can shield tanks get equal HP repped/cap spent to armor (XL shield v L armor and L RR shield v L RR armor Cap shield v Cap armor)? When was the last time you saw an active armor tank being used vs. an RR buffer one? That's right. Hardly ever. The fact that active armor tank bonused hulls such as the Brutix, Myrmidon, Hyperion, Eos and Astarte are nearly always fitted with a passive shield buffer should tell you something. Quote: So shields are OP, despite all their negatives, because the rep comes at the beginning of the cycle. This is your argument. Yep, just the one argument. Plus the other three you ignored. I do think shield bonuses should apply immediately. What I am saying is that won't change the fact that armor tanked ships have a number of severe disadvantages vs. shield tankers and that should also be looked at. The only issue I can think of that really sells an armor tanked ship is the sig radius, which might be a valid tactic if sensor damps were less terrible but provides next to no advantage at all after you've locked the ship.
Kabaal S'sylistha Caldari Technomage Trilogy Comrades-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.12.02 17:24:00 - [36] Edited by: Kabaal S''sylistha on 02/12/2010 17:24:07 Originally by: Ogogov Originally by: Bagehi Originally by: Ogogov Can shield tanks get an XL extender comparable to the 1600mm plate? Sure, as long as 1600mm plates get their powergrid usage cut by 50% and agility penalty removed :) Confirming poster wants 800mm plate fitting reqs on his 1600mm plates as compensation for allowing shield users to graciously have a model on the equal level. Also confirming poster thinks sig radius has 'almost no effect' other than for lock times, and should be ignored. -More Pewpew, Less QQ-
Ogogov Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.12.02 17:42:00 - [37] Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha Edited by: Kabaal S''sylistha on 02/12/2010 17:24:07 Originally by: Ogogov Originally by: Bagehi Originally by: Ogogov Can shield tanks get an XL extender comparable to the 1600mm plate? Sure, as long as 1600mm plates get their powergrid usage cut by 50% and agility penalty removed :) Confirming poster wants 800mm plate fitting reqs on his 1600mm plates as compensation for allowing shield users to graciously have a model on the equal level. Derp, that was supposed to read 800mm plates - my bad. Also come to mention it 1600mm's should get about 15% PG usage shaved off if you want to make everything exactly the same Quote: Also confirming poster thinks sig radius has 'almost no effect' other than for lock times, and should be ignored. Also confirming troll cherry picked points out and ignored everything else.
Theel Maas The Praxis Initiative Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:12:00 - [38] Makes sense
Bobbeh Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:32:00 - [39] Edited by: Bobbeh on 02/12/2010 18:35:09 While your at it ogo, lets make the DCU give the same amount of resists to armor and shields. Oh and Give Shield tanks an implant set and officer implant to increase shield hp, Or make Slaves not work for caps.... or akemons.... just saying.... Also Give us a mod that increases our shield by a percentage like an energized regenerative plate, would be great for my wyvern. The Biggest Advantage Armor has over shields is Midslots.... Tackle, Ecm, Webs, Sebos. Yes Shield tanks can fit Damage mods but if they cant hold someone down then what use are they. Nyx's and Aeons can Have a point and a web and a sebo and cap recharge mods, the Wyverns and hel's must use PDU's or Power Relays in the lows if they wanna jump this year. not to mention if your not fitting CN PDU's your just terrible.... Shields are gimped at the moment cause you cant count their bonus towards their tank when they jump into an enemy cause its not applied immediately. Since the Biggest Draw back to armor is being slow compared to sig raduis for shields. Which neither really affect supers or capitals, the are mute points then its just a question of Cap regen, Tank, and Utility Mods. Shields generally Get a better sustainable local tank than armor but that doesnt matter (unless crystals worked with caps),Cause noone active tanks supers, there fore they should get an implant set that does work for passive tanking shields. Also have the bonus apply immediately to the top end. I'll be honest if crystals worked with capitals im sure a large portion of the wyverns in eve would switch to local tank with a large buffer. But even ill admit it would be op as pre dominion an active dual amp wyvern has 80% and above resistances and a dps tank of over 12k, with crystals that would be double if not double and a half... 24k to 30k dps tank, plus rr.... So stop with the argument that armor is worse off than shields. because Shields local tank> Armor RR Armor > Shields Shield Buffer + nano> Armor buffer + Nano Armor buffer> Shield Buffer ( If you dont believe it take a look at all the titans and supercarriers in the game and youll see over 70-80% are Armor tanked models not shield models. Also you see Wyverns Fitting Eanms but you dont see Aeons fitting Invulns. cause they know everynoe else is in a nyx or an aeon so they will get armor reps more likely than shield reps. The Basic argument is dont make shields = to armor for caps cause then my aeon is ugly and not 100 times better than a wyvern. And my Nyx isnt Better than the wyvern and hel just cause its armor. Fixing this would make Shield caps and supers have equal footing compared to armor caps and supers.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:46:00 - [40] Originally by: Ogogov Derp, that was supposed to read 800mm plates - my bad. Also come to mention it 1600mm's should get about 15% PG usage shaved off if you want to make everything exactly the same Compare Fittings: L Extender 165 MW 46 tf 800 Plate 230 MW 28 tf Shields have easy grid fitting because shield tanks often have grid to spare (easy to load up on PDS) but CPU is always tight. Making the CPU the hard part of fitting shield components makes it harder to fit. You wanna make those two the same? Great! That benefits shield tankers over armor tankers to have equal CPU/Grid requirements compared to the current fitting reqs. Originally by: Ogogov Sure! As long as armor gets a great full-gamut active hardener like the Invulnerability field II :) Honestly, that would make more sense than having ANP and EANM to me. Always seemed to me like you should have to activate/energize the EANM. I'm sure there's a bitter old vet story behind that that comes from the early days of Eve. Originally by: Ogogov When was the last time you saw an active armor tank being used vs. an RR buffer one? That's right. Hardly ever. Same is said of almost all active tanks in a fleet situation. Shield tankers have some ships that are active tank bonused as well. Often, such ships are used for ratting. Biggest problem there is that hybrids suck, especially for ratting. So, the problem with the Brutix and its like has more to do with their weapons than their active tank bonuses. As to the RR stuff, same imbalance with RR. I fly Basi, Scimi, Guard. Being a Testie, you may be only familiar with shield tanked gangs (hurray for drake fleets) even though you seem to be one of those unfortunates who flies Gallente. Most fleets fly armor RR. There's a reason for this. You can't blame the fail of Gallente ships on armor tanking by the way. When you get into cap ships, you'll be happy you trained Gallente. This signature is useless, but it is red.
Ogogov Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.12.02 19:18:00 - [41] Originally by: Bagehi When you get into cap ships, you'll be happy you trained Gallente. I'm sure even their cap ships will be heavily nerfed soon. By that point I might not if this is the way things are going :( With the plates the problem is compounded by the fact that the repper modules and bonused weapons on armor tanked ships are also power grid hungry. Oftentimes they can't compete with the DPS/tank that shield ships (in particular Drakefleets) can pump out, as the choice between tank and damage appears to be a far sharper one. Although I'm sure that's more down to me being terrible at this game than anything else. I'm not saying that I don't support the idea of the FC/fleet bonus being applied immediately, but it just seems alot of the arguments leave armor tanked ships (especially Gallente ones), out in the cold.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.02 19:50:00 - [42] Originally by: Ogogov Originally by: Bagehi When you get into cap ships, you'll be happy you trained Gallente. I'm sure even their cap ships will be heavily nerfed soon. By that point I might not if this is the way things are going :( With the plates the problem is compounded by the fact that the repper modules and bonused weapons on armor tanked ships are also power grid hungry. Oftentimes they can't compete with the DPS/tank that shield ships (in particular Drakefleets) can pump out, as the choice between tank and damage appears to be a far sharper one. Although I'm sure that's more down to me being terrible at this game than anything else. I'm not saying that I don't support the idea of the FC/fleet bonus being applied immediately, but it just seems alot of the arguments leave armor tanked ships (especially Gallente ones), out in the cold. CCP said they are aware of the hybrid weapons problem. Based on when CCP acknowledged the projectiles as having a problem and when they fixed them... give hybrids another year and they may be useful once more. Even after the semi-recent nerf, the Moros is still possibly the top dread. Thanny/Nyx don't have whine threads about them, so I wouldn't worry about these still being worthy training goals (though the recent super carrier nerf hurt Nyx pilots more than other scarrier pilots). Drakes are definitely the toe-to-toe, knock down bruiser when it comes to sub-BS fleets. There are a lot of different types of fleet compositions though that do not favor the drake. Again, Gallente ships are out in the cold for reasons other than their tank (some of those ships need a complete rework I think - Brutix being one). TL;DR - Fixing the shield bonus does no damage to Gallente ships that they weren't already feeling (and CCP is aware of). This signature is useless, but it is red.
Fuujin GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.02 21:00:00 - [43] Just realized something completely obvious that kinda negates most of the arguments here. The bonuses aren't changing--they already exist. The ships people are whining about--passive tankers--are the ones already able to regen the shield and take advantage of it as long as they're not immediately jumped. Its the ships that are functionally equivalent to armor tankers--buffer shield tanks--that see the most pain from this. So the "drake!!!11" argument is pointless--the drake is the ship least hurt by the current mechanic.
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.12.03 00:10:00 - [44] Edited by: Captain Mastiff on 03/12/2010 00:12:46 Supported, it is so annoying to board a non passive/boosting ship in space for example a buffer ship in space and suffer a massive shield deficit. I.E my cheap cruiser intercepting stabber relies on a shield buff to keep it alive for long enough yet if I board it whilst in space I only have around 20% of its potential shield and unless I dock which is impossible in some situations or wait for its recharge to charge the shield which would take around 2 days then it is rather nerfed. It's about time they changed this as shield buffered ships are heavily nerfed due to this. The passive recharge only realistically applies to drakes and or possibly Onyx's. Finally, reduce shield extender bonus nerf! I would much prefer a speed nerf than a sig radius boost on my Onyx, making me the size of a battleship isn't cool.
Alias 6322A	Posted - 2010.12.03 00:14:00 - [45] Looks like the topic got derailed a bit... All the OP asked for was instant change just like armor. Shield-oriented gangs shouldn't be penalized for having a different tank setup. Shield values should be changed instantly and brought to 100% just like armor is. That's all there is to it. It doesn't break the game balance anyways, in fact it probably improves it as logistics don't have to blow cap fixing your shield/you don't have to wait for full shields everytime you change system. If you were entering a battle directly from another system, the bonus is significantly smaller as while your recharge goes up (from a higher shield HP from bonus), you don't actually have the increased hp and thus you start the battle with an almost negligible bonus. Support.
Bobbeh Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.12.05 22:57:00 - [46] bump
UltraViolet A	Posted - 2010.12.05 23:02:00 - [47] test
Aphrodite Skripalle Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2010.12.06 13:52:00 - [48] +1 If you put a ship from carrier maintenance into a pos ship maintenance and someone boards the ship who is in fleet with shield bonus this will happen: 1. all fitting is offline (although everything was online while storing the ship into the carrier) 2. you have less shields .. eg. 61% only. 3. if there are anchored but offlined ship maintenance arrays around you, there is a good chance you online one fit and all your cap is depleted although you used the fitting service of the online array. 4. be happy to have an armored tank ship. you can directly warp to your hostile target and kill. Shield buffered passive tanke ship setups are pretty much useless in this moments you need them fast. Quite unfair and really needs to be fixed.
roho816	Posted - 2010.12.08 15:39:00 - [49] Sounds good. Doesn't change the actual bonuses, just lets the ships benefit from them across jumps. Supported.
Bobbeh Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.12.16 20:38:00 - [50] Bump it up
BloodMia	Posted - 2010.12.27 11:04:00 - [51] Originally by: Reed Tiburon This is obvious and should have been done long ago. As simple as that... just take a look at current supercap distribution, haters must be blind not to see that there's an issue. Sokratesz and the author of this thread maid have laid one's finger on this obvious, you don't think so ? So, heavily supported
ItsMeMarioo	Posted - 2010.12.27 12:47:00 - [52] Support IF the drake is nerfed
Decus Daga	Posted - 2010.12.28 02:19:00 - [53] Ｄａｍｎ　ｒｉｇｈｔ　ｓｕｐｐｏｒｔｅｄ
BloodMia	Posted - 2010.12.29 10:16:00 - [54] Originally by: Fuujin On top of this free HP boost, armor tankers even have an implant set to improve their armor total even more. That's fine; shield and armor tanking are different and I like the diversity (raw HP vs regenerated). But for gang bonuses the difference in behavior is just too disruptive to be remotely equated. I've just noticed this, and I need to point it again: "raw HP" implant like "Slave" does affect capital, but the "regenerated" counterpart, the "Crystal", doesn't (cause it affect the module and not the ship). So diversity, well, I also like that, but it's another big disparity between cap/supercap user, at least as obvious as the other "shield applying bonus" issue. Keep moving on, we'll bring this to the top
jake sisko	Posted - 2010.12.30 20:39:00 - [55] As cap shield pilot, supported of course! Character Sheet Link: http://eveboard.com/pilot/jake_sisko
Anubis Xian Word Bearers of Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.31 05:03:00 - [56] Armored Warfare Mindlinked pilot says supported. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.

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