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WE ARE FEED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 63 post(s)
Batolemaeus Caldari Money Liberation Services Corp	Posted - 2010.12.19 14:11:00 - [1] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. The amount of bots I've seen on my roams through the drone regions, lowsec and highsec speak volumes about your commitment. Put some meat on the table. How many non-rmt aligned bots have you been banning per region / security level? How many courier macros in magnates? How many market bots? How many courier mission bots in industrials, and how does the QEN look like with them factored out of the statistic? How many drone region macro renter corps have you dropped the hammer on? What's your average time between character creation / discovery / banning? How much isk have you confiscated from the main accounts of known botters? Why did PI hit tq when it was clear that the only way to do PI was with a macro and with functional macros appearing less than 30 minutes after it hit sisi? Why does game design continue to create extremely macro friendly content? Quo vadis, CCP?
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.25 05:38:00 - [2] Originally by: Pr0m Queen rofl guys, don't you understand the real problem? riverini and Majesta Empire are a part of Northern Coalition, this whole deal was brought to you by his site that was already mentioned here, and it all is, in fact, part of media campaign against Drone Region Russian Forces that are currently at war with NC that lasts since dawn of times I might add. Ammount of bots in EVE is annoying, true, but blaming just one party for bot usage is plain idiocy. Whole NC territory is one big blue napfest ideal for botters - why not look there? why not ask some particular individuals, how come they know so much about botting in the fisrt place? nah, that needs too much brain power from your common Joe. In the end it's all just dirty politics and dirty media war tricks EN24 series of articles about RMT is just boiling with hate against russians, while you can't beat them on battlefield or outsmart them or beat their famous tenacity, you decide to make them evil for the rest of EVE community? As for people making a lot of isks daily - I can, if I want or need to, farm few billions in a week just by runnig anomalies using my 4 accounts, of course I do it completely manually by myself, using one marauder, carrier and two battleships to simultaneously do two sanctums and two havens. and farming with stuff like motherships will give you even more. in fact, when i actively farm i can make around 300-500kk isk a day, why would anyone need to use bots when you can have this income? to deal with RMT problem, CCP should start acting against ISK buyers more than against botters, because it's the demand that creates the offer in this case. It's not really cause of bots, I guess bots were created to speed up ISK generation for the GROWING DEMAND of the RMT market. Make no mistake, it's not botters who's creating this problem, it's lazy players who find it easier to buy isk than to farm for it. And if not for PLEX being sold officially, this market would be even bigger, because then all the people who try to fund their EVE adventures by selling PLEXes would just turn to illegal isk sellers. What CCP can also do is to lower PLEX prices a bit, mybe make them 15 days instead of 30 to add more options for people with limited funds that would otherwise (instead of buying PLEX) spend their limited funds on illegal isk. It's just basic economy rules - supply and demand, and I think this is why CCP can't really take any action in current situation. I mean they can do something that would damage EVE greatly or even completely change it, but that would be too much. And there's no way some small simple half-measures can deal with this RMT problem. So guys, just let CCP do their job and just be happy about that you play in one of most awesome and original MMOs ever created. I'd like to highlight this post, because the style of argumentation is amazing. Whenever rampant botting is brought up, and ccp is asked to take action against bots, there is inevitably someone whose line of argument is basically this: "But the NC does it too." Not only is this missing the point, it's also very revealing. Someone is getting mighty defensive whenever botting is brought up. I wonder why.. It's not like botting alliances like Shadow of xXDEATHXx were always targeted specifically. We're talking _all_ bots here. Their people need to be permabanned, the people who give them a place to operate need to be vivisected. Who cares on which part of the map they are? They need to diaf. Especially revealing, by the way, is the RMT smokebomb. RMT is completely detached from botting. These are two separate issues.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.25 05:57:00 - [3] I rarely read kugs tbh.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.27 01:07:00 - [4] Originally by: Consortium Agent What they don't, and can't, tell you is that many of the reports you file are small potatoes. Grunts, if you will. Grunts who, eventually, leave a paper trail to their masters. Since it is ultimately the head of the snake you want to cut off, since cutting off the tail doesn't kill the snake, we have to allow CCP the time and leeway to use the grunts for what grunts are good for - exposing the head of the snake. Killing off a bunch of grunts with the ban hammer is useless if the next day the head of the snake fields a bunch more you don't know about. No, it is clearly better to take the time to build the evidence you need and follow the trail of scum until you hear the head hiss. Then you whack the hell out of the head with the ban hammer and the rest of the snake (the tail - the grunts we report) die with it. Hahaha, right. They had more than enough time to do that, and they ignored the problem. There is no paper trail for a guy running half a dozen bots to finance his supercap, or a botting corp renting a system in the drone regions to produce supers to sell for real money. The "paper trails" have long been exposed, discussed, vivisected, discussed again, archived, dug up, and analyzed all over again. We're long past the stage where incompetence can be a valid explanation for what is happening. It's either ignorance or malicious intend.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.27 04:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Brannoncyll If CCP do not come down on this hard and soon, the arms race will spiral ever further out of control to the point where anyone who wants to compete must bot. Not sure how to break this to you, but that is already the case. The only thing keeping alliances from encouraging their members to run bots is petty idealism.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.28 05:04:00 - [6] Edited by: Batolemaeus on 28/02/2011 05:05:03 Originally by: Arnakoz your logic would only work if there were actually a way to stop bots. simple matter of the fact is that nothing they do will stop it. You're both wrong and right. Nothing CCP will do will stop botting, as they have fully embraced botting. Case in point: PI, that could be completely automated with an autohotkey script. That eliminating botting is impossible, however, is complete bull**. Bots can't even properly compete against a human in Go, let alone in computer games that require any high level strategy. Using game design to make botting completely pointless is not just possible, it's almost a direct result of good game design. It is only when the design is so mechanical and terrible, like with PI, mining, ratting and so on, that bots have any niche to exist. The current situation of mandated botting is a direct result of the incompetence and lack of vision of the CCP "game designers". Originally by:** Lithalnas If you banned by CPUID then the botters would have to change out CPU's every time they are banned or hack the client to auto OK the check. But if i remember correctly, intel implemented these functionalities in a sort of non spoof-able manor to prevent CPU re-branding. Ohi. I'm a virtual machine. Try to identify me.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.28 10:07:00 - [7] Originally by: knobber Jobbler t2 isn't affected by bots other than what botters spend money on. t2 prices might actually go down. Suggestion: Only people who understand how the eve economy works are allowed to partake in this discussion. By the way, PI and ice macros factor heavily into the end price of t2 goods.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.01 04:47:00 - [8] Edited by: Batolemaeus on 01/03/2011 04:47:13 Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Originally by: Opertone to your information - excessive ISK from botting, => inflation, battleships cost 90 mill a piece, then 100 mill, then even 110 mill. As more people get involved in botting, they go on market and buy equipment. They have higher income in ISKs, so casual players find it more difficult to buy equipment. IT can be observed in PLEX and Character market too, influx of ISKs devalues the currency. Everything takes more isk, isk value goes down. Aggravated by the fact that botters devalue minerals (mining bots) at the same time they cause ISK inflation (ratting bots). I'm not smart enough to draw a conclusion from that but I think it's very bad. Both most common bot types devalue minerals. Drone region bots supply most of the high mins, mining bots in w-space and k-space flood minerals into the economy too.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.01 08:36:00 - [9] Originally by: Darod Zyree Edited by: Darod Zyree on 01/03/2011 08:25:34 Originally by: Othran CCP says "Carry On Botting"...... So how do i set up a bot? if CCP isnÆt going to permanently ban any account for using a bot program we can discuss it here right? innerscape is the most used. You can ask Therik in Rhaegor Stormborn in H A V O C, they know how to set it up.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.02 04:48:00 - [10] Originally by: CCP Sreegs I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks. I stated that we in no way endorse this activity and never will. I am pretty clear on these things and that is our one and only policy. Actions speak louder than words, and your continued inaction speaks volumes. Considering how little your gms are doing against known botters, your inaction is but an endorsement to botting. My watchlist of botting characters in Shadow of xXDEATHXx alone broke 100 pilots online after a day of roaming around their space. Some of them have been doing their thing for months. I would also like to highlight the 1d bans gms are using as band-aids against denounced characters. Very effective. You're being laughed at by botters on publicly viewable forums..
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.02 14:19:00 - [11] First off, thanks for taking your time to respond. I must disagree with you that game design is not the root cause of the current botting problem. While there are other problems like negligence from the Gms or the python injection hole, they are not the root cause but merely side problems. Even widespread acceptance of bots does have a cause somewhere. If you look at the most common bot types, you'll notice that without exception the automated tasks are those which are extremely mechanical in nature. Mining and PI being the poster childs of mechanical "gameplay". Both can be automated with autohotkey scripts, that's how devoid of interaction they are. The root cause of all botting anywhere is where game design promotes mechanical repetition of steps. Whether it is aiming at heads or moving items from one place to another in regular intervals. Good game design kills off any attemts at automation as a mere side effect. If PI was a pallette swapped settlers 2, you wouldn't encounter any worthwhile bots for it, especially if it was competitive. Good game design requires strategical decisions from the player. It's what some of the most famous games are built on entirely. "Just one more turn" doesn't occur because one wants to do the same repetitive steps over and over again, but because all the time there are decisions that require thought. As you might have noticed, autohotkey is pretty bad at making decisions. More elaborate setups don't get over the stage of branching paths and simple scripts either. So to reiterate, there is a root cause, being game design. The problems that have arisen from that root cause are, however, complex. If you just pull the plug on the drone region bots, the market for highmins will be funny for weeks to months. The problem has been ignored for so long that is has become an integral part of Eve. Untangling it is a pretty difficult job and past precedent of ccp's game design capabilities isn't exactly showing promise. Your gms are universially terrible too. (nice job legitimizing ddosing players via convo requests btw., much appreciated) In closing, I wish you luck fighting against the two most unbreakable barriers Eve has in addition to botting itself. You'll need it.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.02 17:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Burnharder Disclaimer: I've got a degree in AI! The current limitations of AI should be known to you then. You're hitting a brick wall of complexity once you move away from the purely mechanical. Something that quite a few very smart people all over the world are trying to crack, and yet progress is slow. The interesting part of, say, Civilization, is that most decisions you make are neither binary choices, nor is it immediately apparent which is better without an overarching strategy. This also means that the AI, as complex as it is, still can not compete with a human. Not even close. There is no rule saying that all mmos have to be based around mechanical grind; repetition of the same mechanical steps ad infinitum. While you can not eliminate the people who want to automate their gameplay, you can set the barrier very high for them by reducing the mechanical and introducing the strategic gameplay. You could change botting from being superior to humans to being vastly outclassed by humans, which will have tangible effects on the impact those bots have.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.05 08:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Sito Jaxa As an alternative to expecting CCP to rebalance the game for your rifter you could just disengage and warp away from the supercap fleet. Ah yes, the old "just quit the game if you don't want to adapt to mandated botting"-argument. Didn't get any better the last 50 pages though. You might want to think of a better one.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.05 16:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Arnakoz so they have lost a lot badgers. what exactly does that indicate? That their bots don't account for slingbubbles at the pos they safe up on if a hostile/neutral enters local, and that they definitely aren't operated by humans as they would never warp into something repeatedly anchored UNDER THEIR OWN EYES. So yes, they're all bots.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.04.25 09:02:00 - [15] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae P.S. may be the best way is baning of hardware serial numbers... (like ban of that HDD or MB) Let me introduce you to this fun little invention, called the virtual machine...
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.04.25 14:07:00 - [16] Edited by: Batolemaeus on 25/04/2011 14:10:14 Originally by: Furb Killer Sure some will make sure there is absolutely no direct link between their botting account and a clean account, but the vast majority will not go further than proxies to hide their IP, if they even do that, and then hardware identifiers can help to identify their other accounts and also ban them. Tutorials on how to use vmware player to neatly separate your botting account and client from your computer and throw off ccp's data collection habits aren't exactly well hidden, you know? In fact, vm use is widespread amongst people who do not want to run their bots on a separate machine. The few people who don't do this have little impact on the economic damage, as opposed to the big botting operations a la drone region renters. Originally by: Revolution Rising Do people think the trit price went up as a result of something CCP did or just an aftershock of the capital losses in the north? Capital losses have no impact on mineral prices anymore. Everyone is building at maximum capacity and is booked out for months whether the ships die or not.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.04.25 20:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Lelob Staring at a bunch of rocks for several hours on end slowly decrease is not going to be made more interesting by bots being removed. The post was well thought out and entirely correct. That does not mean, however, that bots should be made officially endorsed tools. It means that CCP needs to do some proper game design for once.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.04.26 09:53:00 - [18] Originally by: Rykuss Originally by: Lelob Working for stuff is boring Weak ass argument is weak. On the contrary. What you edited into Lelob's post is the most important weakness of CCP's game design philosophy, embracing hard, tedious work instead of intellectually challenging, interesting design. PI is a very good example of this and, guess what..working macros for PI were available at launch.

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