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Mr Dilkington
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:20:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Mr Dilkington on 06/12/2010 12:20:15
You did fall for the scam, you saw and evaded the intial part but failed in your knowledge of game mechanics, hence fell for something else.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:22:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Hopefully the trade system doesn't calculate margin buys into the average price.
Regional average price is calculated only using actual trades completed (and not even all of them, some outliers are filtered out), existing unprocessed orders of any kind have absolutely no effect whatsoever on it.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:23:00 -
[33]
this scam is old news at this point. its a free market and market manipulation happens, if you want to trade in an item you should know more than oooh shiny item with a good buy order over there! taking a quick look at the price graph probably should have given you a clue....
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Aunty Nora
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:24:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Hopefully the trade system doesn't calculate margin buys into the average price.
Regional average price is calculated only using actual trades completed (and not even all of them, some outliers are filtered out), existing unprocessed orders of any kind have absolutely no effect whatsoever on it.
him be right, if the order does not complete, it will not show.
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Forum Guy
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:25:00 -
[35]
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
Apparently they Don't like what it said. Basically the GM said it is a feature working as intended so there is nothing to be done.
Sounds like a feature to me, it does not take much to check what an orders minimum volume is. In Eve you have to be careful, if you are not you get bitten.
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Lillith Starfire
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:34:00 -
[36]
I think you may be able to filter market results to remove minimum quantity buy orders? If so that would be a quick and easy way to avoid this problem in future mebbe!
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Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:41:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 06/12/2010 12:42:27
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
You can detect it by doing as little as 5 seconds of research into what they are selling.
Because nobody ever pays more for an item than it's worth? Come on.
I appreciate the fact that you are desperately defending the scam. Odds are, you probably use it.
I'm not desperately defending the scam, I'm telling the OP how stupid he was and provided a tip on how to get money out of the margin scammers anyway.
And it's not a matter of 'paying more for an item'. It's a matter of realising that when you attempt to supply goods worth a few million to someone offering a few hundred million, they probably don't have your best interests at heart. 
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Billy Kidd
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:43:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Billy Kidd on 06/12/2010 12:44:57
The scam can be done with a minimum buy volume of 1.
For example,
1. You put up a buy order for 4 units of Item X at 100m each.
2. The total escrow is 400m, but with margin trading V, you only have to pay 93m to setup the buy order.
3. You take isk out of your wallet so that you have less than 7m in your wallet.
4. On another character, you put a sell order for 4 Item X at 50m each.
5. Someone buys all 4 Item X, but when he tries to fill your buy order, you can't come up with 100m isk (to pay for even one Item X) from your escrow (93m) and your wallet (less than 7m).
5. Your buy order bounces, your escrow is refunded, and you lose money through taxes, but you filled your sell order so you come out ahead.
So setting up the minimum buy volume to 1 won't protect you all the time.
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Derus Grobb
Minmatar
Selectus Pravus Lupus
Transmission Lost
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:52:00 -
[39]
Rename your thread.
CCP did nothing wrong.
---
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Forum Guy
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:53:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Forum Guy on 06/12/2010 12:54:04
Originally by: Billy Kidd
Edited by: Billy Kidd on 06/12/2010 12:47:16
The scam can be done with a minimum buy volume of 1.
For example,
1. You put up a buy order for 4 units of Item X at 100m each.
2. The total escrow is 400m, but with margin trading V, you only have to pay 95m to setup the buy order.
3. You take isk out of your wallet so that you have less than 5m in your wallet.
4. On another character, you put a sell order for 4 Item X at 50m each.
5. Someone buys all 4 Item X, but when he tries to fill your buy order, you can't come up with 100m isk (to pay for even one Item X) from your escrow (95m) and your wallet (less than 5m).
5. Your buy order bounces, your escrow is refunded, and you lose money through taxes. But you filled your sell order so you come out ahead.
So setting up the minimum buy volume to 1 won't protect you all the time.
Edit: math
Ok thanks, was not aware of this. I never liked margin trading, kind of regretted when I learnt that skill on one character.
So the moral of the story is, if it looks to good to be true it probably is a scam.
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RedClaws
Amarr
Black Serpent Technologies
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.06 13:44:00 -
[41]
A lot of guys here are being asses for no good reason.
The fact is: This "gimmick" is pretty much abusing the game mechanics and CCP should take a look at it. I'm not saying they should remove it but perhaps they can add some more information to the buy order so that the other person can see more clearly that it is a scam.
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:01:00 -
[42]
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
I end up with 23 uselss items because of a glitch.
Let me guess, some large rigs? Just reprocess them and build something else or resell the raw materials again. |
Billy Kidd
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:02:00 -
[43]
There's only so much damage a person can do though, as trying to juggle more than one scam order gets riskier and risker since failing one order can mean fulfilling others if you're not on top of your game.
The maximum a character can run with absolute safety is 8 orders (one for personal wallet, one for each corp wallet), so you'd need many accounts before you start seriously affecting the market. The restriction of one scam order per wallet plus the steady losses in taxes kinda limit the potential effects of this scam. |
kakmonstret
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:06:00 -
[44]
Yeah a market order should be a commitment to buy. But that would require some sort of loaning mechanism. There is also the problem with throw away alts. |
Reteris
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:50:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Reteris on 06/12/2010 14:51:37
Edited by: Reteris on 06/12/2010 14:51:12
As others have already said, welcome to New Eden, a dark pit of gang wars and lies collectively working in an environment of hostile space and disease. Ever seen Serenity?
That being said, this is the way it was intended. It's part of the life here in New Eden. Get used to it. It happens. If you've ever played Face of Mankind (http://www.fomportal.com/) it's even worse then it is here. This play style is what makes this game unique. They better leave it the way it is.
In all seriousness, it's no different then the stock market in the real world. You buy a ton of stocks hoping to sell it back for a very high price so you can get that new dress for your wife only to have someone else with even more stocks sell the order a second before you and you now have no money to feed your children. And this happens IRL. The game is merely mimicing this behavior. It's wonderful.
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Billy Kidd
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Posted - 2010.12.06 14:51:00 -
[46]
Originally by: kakmonstret
Yeah a market order should be a commitment to buy. But that would require some sort of loaning mechanism. There is also the problem with throw away alts.
Even something as simple as an overdraft charge would fix this problem. Whether this is the right thing to do is another question entirely, since it that could cause problems for people who don't run out of cash on purpose (but that certainly doesn't prevent real-life banks from doing this to customers).
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.06 15:00:00 -
[47]
Originally by: RedClaws
The fact is: This "gimmick" is pretty much abusing the game mechanics and CCP should take a look at it. I'm not saying they should remove it but perhaps they can add some more information to the buy order so that the other person can see more clearly that it is a scam.
The information is already there. Hell, even the OP spotted it easily.
Also, where's the abuse? You're being protected at every step of the way ù that's how the mechanic is set up: you still have the items; he still has his ISK; nothing changes hand. If you chose to buy the items at (far) above market value, so that "still having the items" isn't a good place to be, that's not really his fault, now is ità
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:18:00 -
[48]
Well.. with so much rambling against empty-buying, we'll probably never see empty-selling or futures, or? 
Personally I love the marketing skill as it allows the turning of bigger wheels than I got money for at any given moment.
And as already has been pointed out, there isn't much room for manipulation besides the niche the OP stumbled across.
Hehe.. thinking about it I wonder how the OP will react once he finds out how BIG market manipulation in Eve works.
support
Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
Herping yourDerp
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:45:00 -
[49]
inb4
I BOUGHT A CHEAP FREIGHTOR THEN WHEN I SET DESTINATION IT WAS IN LOWSEC I WENT TO GET IT AND DIED WTFSCAMHAX/QQRAGEQUIT
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Pyro Ninja
Gallente
Loving Pirates
Vera Cruz Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.06 18:01:00 -
[50]
you knew it was a scam, but you spent the isk anyway. You sir are stupid. This scam has been known for some time and the skills used to do it are on the market for you to use as well.
You knew it was a scam but still went through with it and now are crying about being scammed.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.12.06 18:02:00 -
[51]
Someone who loses their ratting ship to a stealth bomber squad jumpbridged by a black-op would also be petitioning and forum raging?...
You fell for the market equivalent. LoL, been waiting for this ever since the scam appeared in MD.
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Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.06 18:32:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Windjammer on 06/12/2010 18:33:26
Easy to avoid. Examine the rare item for its worth. Does it have real value in terms of what it can do or how collectable it is?
Look at the volumes. Is there a lot of actual selling/ buying going on? Real market movement? Does the number of items in the purchase order seem too high? Does it have a minimum number accepted in the purchase that seems suspicious?
I donÆt care for scams in general and this one in particular, but whether you like it or not, itÆs working as intended and, yes, you did fall for it. In fairness, this particular scam was recently on the character selection sidebar a couple of times with full details of how it works. CCP does not often alert players to scams in this fashion.
One of the more interesting features in EVE is that it requires thinking and being alert in the market place. More like a real world effect than a games. With that in mind, if it looks too good to be true, thereÆs a good likelihood that it is.
Better luck in the future,
Windjammer
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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.12.06 18:43:00 -
[53]
To OP:
I believe they lose the Brokers fee when the order fails, which is not huge, but something. If I were you I would leave those rigs there in Jita/Amarr wherever and hit the scam daily, its a small loss to them, but it is a loss.
I do think that margin trading should have some further penalty if you fail however. IRL if a trader kept missing their margin calls they wouldn't be allowed to do it for awhile. I am not saying that is the needed change, but something should be done, otherwise its only going to keep being abused, which I do not think was the intent.
Best
AG
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Do you really care what trolls say? If yes, please take a break and head outside, it helps.
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Forum Guy
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Posted - 2010.12.06 18:51:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
To OP:
I believe they lose the Brokers fee when the order fails, which is not huge, but something. If I were you I would leave those rigs there in Jita/Amarr wherever and hit the scam daily, its a small loss to them, but it is a loss.
I do think that margin trading should have some further penalty if you fail however. IRL if a trader kept missing their margin calls they wouldn't be allowed to do it for awhile. I am not saying that is the needed change, but something should be done, otherwise its only going to keep being abused, which I do not think was the intent.
Best
AG
Sounds like quite a good change to me, if they keep missing the margin then it's likely to be deliberate.
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Bo Ganvyllia
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Posted - 2010.12.06 19:39:00 -
[55]
My biggest issue with this is that it's far removed from "trading on margin," which is what is implied by what the skill does.
Buying on margin is, literally, purchasing a stock or commodity by borrowing money. In order to do it, you front a down payment and then borrow the remainder from a broker to complete the transaction. For example, if you purchase $1,000 worth of stocks on 50% margin, you'd pay $500 and the broker pays $500. Obviously, you're betting on the stock increasing in value so that you can repay the broker, recover your initial stake, and walk away with a profit.
Buying on margin has several advantages: First and foremost, if you think you have a good thing on the line, you can purchase a greater amount (and thereby reap potentially greater profits) of the stock or commodity than you would otherwise be able to buy with liquid funds. Second: Buying on margin leaves more of your liquid funds available for use elsewhere instead of tied up in a stock. This allows you to make other moves while waiting for your investment to pay off.
On the flip side, buying on margin also carries greater risk. If the value of the lender's equity drops below some agreed upon number (say 25% of the total value of the position), then you are required to pay cash to the lender to restore their equity to 25%. This is the "margin call." If you don't have the funds to do this, then the lender may immediately liquidate your stocks in order to recover what is owed to them (the full $500 from above). If they get over $500, then they hand you whatever is left. If they don't, however, you still owe them the difference. As you can see, it's possible to get in big debt really quick trading on margin if you aren't careful.
It's the risk factor where EVE deviates from anything remotely resembling margin trading. There's almost zero risk (apart from broker fees already paid up front). The credit ostensibly extended to the buyer isn't really there, otherwise the buy orders would be filled.
What should happen is that margin buy orders should always be filled and the difference between the buyer's initial stake and the creditor's payment becomes the margin call, due immediately. For example: A buy order is placed for 5 items, worth 10 ISK each, on margin at 23.75%. The buyer pays his fees and 11.88 in escrow. If one item is filled, then nothing happens. The amount is drawn from the escrow. If another item is filled, however, then the lender charges 8.13 to the buyer. This continues until the order is completed.
The benefit is that a buyer need not place all of his liquid funds into a buy order. The risk factor if the buyer doesn't have the funds at the time the order is filled is going negative balance. Any income after that goes to satisfying the debt.
Maybe there's some kind of crazy problem with that, but really that's what margin trading should be. Why it isn't I don't know.
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Angeltara
Shadow's of Ezra
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Posted - 2010.12.06 20:10:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Bo Ganvyllia
My biggest issue with this is that it's far removed from "trading on margin," which is what is implied by what the skill does.
Buying on margin is, literally, purchasing a stock or commodity by borrowing money. In order to do it, you front a down payment and then borrow the remainder from a broker to complete the transaction. For example, if you purchase $1,000 worth of stocks on 50% margin, you'd pay $500 and the broker pays $500. Obviously, you're betting on the stock increasing in value so that you can repay the broker, recover your initial stake, and walk away with a profit.
Buying on margin has several advantages: First and foremost, if you think you have a good thing on the line, you can purchase a greater amount (and thereby reap potentially greater profits) of the stock or commodity than you would otherwise be able to buy with liquid funds. Second: Buying on margin leaves more of your liquid funds available for use elsewhere instead of tied up in a stock. This allows you to make other moves while waiting for your investment to pay off.
On the flip side, buying on margin also carries greater risk. If the value of the lender's equity drops below some agreed upon number (say 25% of the total value of the position), then you are required to pay cash to the lender to restore their equity to 25%. This is the "margin call." If you don't have the funds to do this, then the lender may immediately liquidate your stocks in order to recover what is owed to them (the full $500 from above). If they get over $500, then they hand you whatever is left. If they don't, however, you still owe them the difference. As you can see, it's possible to get in big debt really quick trading on margin if you aren't careful.
It's the risk factor where EVE deviates from anything remotely resembling margin trading. There's almost zero risk (apart from broker fees already paid up front). The credit ostensibly extended to the buyer isn't really there, otherwise the buy orders would be filled.
What should happen is that margin buy orders should always be filled and the difference between the buyer's initial stake and the creditor's payment becomes the margin call, due immediately. For example: A buy order is placed for 5 items, worth 10 ISK each, on margin at 23.75%. The buyer pays his fees and 11.88 in escrow. If one item is filled, then nothing happens. The amount is drawn from the escrow. If another item is filled, however, then the lender charges 8.13 to the buyer. This continues until the order is completed.
The benefit is that a buyer need not place all of his liquid funds into a buy order. The risk factor if the buyer doesn't have the funds at the time the order is filled is going negative balance. Any income after that goes to satisfying the debt.
Maybe there's some kind of crazy problem with that, but really that's what margin trading should be. Why it isn't I don't know.
This doesn't save the OP who invested in a scam expecting not to be scammed, BUT it hits the nail on the head perfectly with the overall issue behind marginal buying in EVE. This is exactly how margin trading works in RL, and should work in Eve since many of the other Trade skills are based on RL market/business dynamics. I'm sure there would/may be development issues and established game mechanics that would need to be addressed with this type of change, or they could simply change the name of the skill to "Madoff Buying".
Great post Bo! You see people, there are intelligent people in Eve.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.06 20:14:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Bo Ganvyllia
Maybe there's some kind of crazy problem with that, but really that's what margin trading should be. Why it isn't I don't know.
The main problem is that "credit" doesn't quite exist in EVE, and that getting your wallet into the red instantly locks you out of doing a fair amount of things that might bring it out of the red againà
àand, kind of ironically, that being in the red is entirely pointless since you can just biomass the character and start with a fresh 5k ISK, so any such credit function (under the current system) would just cover any expense you could think of and you'd never actually need any ISK. They'd have to rejigger the entire economy and the concept of character wallets to make it work, which is probably a bit more work than it's worth.
But yes, margin trading in EVE does almost the exact opposite of what the name suggests: it protects the buyer from buying more than he can afford and it protects the buyer from handing over stuff to someone who in the end can't afford it.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.12.06 20:29:00 -
[58]
Perhaps it is time to move the rational part of this thread to F&I
AG
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Do you really care what trolls say? If yes, please take a break and head outside, it helps.
====================================== |
Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.06 22:11:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tippia
àand, kind of ironically, that being in the red is entirely pointless since you can just biomass the character and start with a fresh 5k ISK
Wrong, recycling alts to get rid of negative wallet balance (or negative sec. status) is an exploit and will lead to a ban.
In any case, CCP could re-code the wallet so it operates without locking, down to, say -100 mil or whatever, so the scammer can still function and "borrow" from himself. This would also allow newbies to have the -100 mil in funds to play with, right at the beginning of the game where ISK is needed most.
But, anyway, this is CCP. I guess we can discuss this in 18 months, and then maybe they'll conceptualize something in another 18 months after that... you get the idea.
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Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.06 22:40:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Billy Kidd
Edited by: Billy Kidd on 06/12/2010 12:52:23
The scam can be done with a minimum buy volume of 1.
For example,
1. You put up a buy order for 4 units of Item X at 100m each.
2. The total escrow is 400m, but with margin trading V, you only have to pay 95m to setup the buy order.
3. You take isk out of your wallet so that you have less than 5m in your wallet.
4. On another character, you put a sell order for 4 Item X at 50m each.
5. Someone buys all 4 Item X, but when he tries to fill your buy order, you can't come up with 100m isk (to pay for even one Item X) from your escrow (95m) and your wallet (less than 5m).
6. Your buy order bounces, your escrow is refunded, and you lose money through taxes. But you filled your sell order so you come out ahead.
So setting up the market filter to a minimum buy volume to 1 won't protect you all the time.
Edit: math
7. I acquire the items from a third party (or possibly just make them myself). I put a sell order up for 90 million and take your escrow. I can then bounce another sell order to remove your ****ty buy order if I feel like it.
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