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Trader Erad	Posted - 2010.12.06 16:58:00 - [1] Hello everybody. I've been playing EVE about a month, as miner. Now, after resubscribing, I decided to try myself in manufacturing. Already a question arises - how can it be profitable? Just to try myself, I bought a blueprint copy of Covetor. Before starting producing I used Excel to count the materials I am going to need, as well as their cost. I immediately saw that the cost of materials is about 1-1.5 million isk HIGHER then average Covetor price on the market. So it's more profitable just to sell mined materials! I take into consideration, that I have low level of Production Efficiency (learning it now). Still, even when I check the "ideal" cost of minerals, I get the number slightly higher then item's cost on market. And if I sell at higher price, no one will ever buy it from me. It seems to be so with every ship better then frigate. It's quite different with drones - selling them seems to be profitable, at least according to Excel (haven't completed manufacturing them yet). Ammunition and rockets seems to bring small profits too. So what do I miss? If it's the situation, why do people even manufacture ships? Selling raw materials is much more profitable! So, veteran gamers what can you suggest? What am I doing wrong? And what items are good for manufacturing, except ammo and drones? And another question is about salvaging - I tried to salvage a few ships and got some weird items. I can't refine them and their cost on market is low. How they can be used? Sorry for noob questions and thanks beforehand!
Imuran The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2010.12.06 17:18:00 - [2] Edited by: Imuran on 06/12/2010 17:19:38 Firstly train Production Efficiency - this will reduce the amount of minerals needed to build items. Try where ever possible to buy minerals on buy orders - as cheap as possible Salvage materials are used in the manufacturing of rigs. Blueprints->Ship Modifications to find the blueprints on the market Train up your accountancy and Broker Relation skills to reduce the cut taken from your sale Make sure you do the maths before you buy the BPC :)
Trader Erad	Posted - 2010.12.06 17:31:00 - [3] Buying too cheap is the same as selling for high price, no one will ever accept it, if there is a better offer. What items are good for manufacturing?
DanceOfEternity	Posted - 2010.12.06 17:38:00 - [4] Edited by: DanceOfEternity on 06/12/2010 17:38:43 Due to the fact that mineral prices are going up extremely quickly you will find that anything with a slim margin is no longer profitable on the market. You're probably doing nothing wrong. Nocxium has just gone up. Zydrine is speculated to go up by 30%. Tritanium either hit a floor or is bouncing back. Pyerite is expected to reach 5-6 ISK per. Go to market discussion and read up on some of the topics if you want better opinions (By all means, do your own research and don't take what I say as the truth). The T1 market takes awhile to compensate. Many players still value their costs at the old prices. Lots of players, like myself (or Reclamation Industries) will look into reprocessing massive quantities of items on the market that are now under mineral value. This also helps keep mineral prices from going crazy. Anything that is Nocxium heavy may be cleaned out pretty quick.
Imuran The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2010.12.06 17:38:00 - [5] Edited by: Imuran on 06/12/2010 17:39:32 Originally by: Trader Erad Buying too cheap is the same as selling for high price, no one will ever accept it, if there is a better offer. What items are good for manufacturing? Did not say anything about too cheap I said as cheap as possible :D It is feasible to make profit on Battlecruisers (just for example) buying minerals in the right place and selling the ships in the right place. I dont do the T1 market much so cannot comment on modules etc but I do know you can make profit on some at least - do your research and maths :D And what the aboce poster said :)
Trader Erad	Posted - 2010.12.06 17:42:00 - [6] Okay, thank you very much, will try to find a station with low ore costs.
Trader Erad	Posted - 2010.12.06 17:54:00 - [7] Wait, I just saw DanceOfEternity post. So you say in the current market situation it's better to reprocess items, instead of selling them? Wow... I sure have to learn things about business.
Imuran The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2010.12.06 17:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Trader Erad Wait, I just saw DanceOfEternity post. So you say in the current market situation it's better to reprocess items, instead of selling them? Wow... I sure have to learn things about business. Reprocessing can be a good source of cheap minerals but this can depend on Price you buy module for (obviously) Having the scrap metal skill Having good standing at the station you reprocess at so you dont loose any to the owners Again its a maths thing - welcome to spreadsheets online
rain9441 Big Head Want Dolly	Posted - 2010.12.06 18:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Trader Erad Wait, I just saw DanceOfEternity post. So you say in the current market situation it's better to reprocess items, instead of selling them? Wow... I sure have to learn things about business. In some circumstances sure. If it costs 50k isk to make a module today and it costed 20k to make the module yesterday, that opens up a big opportunity... Buy it out and put it up for 70k isk per or buy it out, reprocess it, and sell the minerals for 50k isk per. Manufacturers should always be aware of the cost to build an item being the MINIMUM of the two factors: Mineral value and market price! Why build something when you can buy it for less than cost?
Funesta	Posted - 2010.12.06 19:48:00 - [10] One major manufacturing profit margin point that no one's touched on yet: Material efficiency. On the blueprint info, there will be a number for material efficiency and for time efficiency (production efficiency? I forget the name). Blueprint ORIGINALS can be researched in these two categories. Material research is absolutely critical to making t1 stuff for a profit. You only need a material research value of about 15 to produce lots of stuff at a nice profit. At a score of 0, you have 10% wasted minerals. At a score of 15, you waste less than 1%. It makes a huge difference. This will cut most non-tritium mineral requirements down to at or near their minimum. Plenty of idiots go for ME greater than 100, but that's really just a waste of money in most cases. The other stat I mentioned, production efficiency, just reduces the time it takes to manufacture something, so it is less important (but still helpful). Blueprint copies will carry the same ME and PE level as the original they were copied from. So if you bought a blueprint copy with 0 ME, that's not a very good blueprint copy. T2 blueprints are made via a different process, so most of them won't have nice ME scores (I think -4 is the normal value for ME on t2 stuff). I suggest that if you want to start manufacturing, you start smaller. Get a BPO (sold by NPCs) for some t1 item used in your region - ammo is always good. Research the BPO (this will take about 2 weeks to a month at public facilities, or a few hours/days if you have access to a private research facility in a POS). Then, once you have your first BPO researched, you can put out your first product and start researching another BPO in the meantime. Be careful about buying BPCs, but once you get the hang of it on BPOs you'll have a better idea of which ones are worthwhile.

Herping yourDerp	Posted - 2010.12.06 23:19:00 - [11] i dont think manufacturing off BPC's are profitable on the lower levels, the BPC themselves eat your profit, Buy a BPO that is already researched in ME, then build it, transport what you made to a trade hub or mission hub depending on what your selling, i only did a little in manufacturing, i made some ammo and send half to jita other half to another trade hub made little profit, but profit is profit when it takes almost no work
Trader Erad	Posted - 2010.12.07 12:53:00 - [12] Okay, everyone thanks for help. For now I'll stick to ammo manufacturing and mining.
MisterNick	Posted - 2010.12.07 13:41:00 - [13] You can just about start turning a profit from cruiser BPC's, I think. I bought a 5-run thorax BPC the other day and only buy the nocxium, megacyte and zydrine, as the rest can be mined in my home system. Bought the BPC for 300k, make around 3-4mil profit on each Thorax. Not much I know, but I have this huge wedge of minerals lying around and thought i'd put it to some use Also, thought you probably know this already: reprocessing mission loot can be a very nice source of the rarer (and more expensive) minerals.
Darcon Kylote 4 wing Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2010.12.07 15:44:00 - [14] Edited by: Darcon Kylote on 07/12/2010 15:45:37 Originally by: MisterNick You can just about start turning a profit from cruiser BPC's, I think. I bought a 5-run thorax BPC the other day and only buy the nocxium, megacyte and zydrine, as the rest can be mined in my home system. And there you go, that is the reason so much stuff sells below "cost". -- Terminal Impact is recruiting PVPers for fun ops in lowsec/0.0/wormhole space. Visit our website or join ingame channel "the tict pub".
rain9441 Big Head Want Dolly	Posted - 2010.12.07 16:24:00 - [15] Originally by: Darcon Kylote And there you go, that is the reason so much stuff sells below "cost". Buy Reprocess (optional) Sell Profit You make it sound like people selling below cost negatively affects you.
Elizabetha Pith	Posted - 2010.12.07 17:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Trader Erad Wait, I just saw DanceOfEternity post. So you say in the current market situation it's better to reprocess items, instead of selling them? Wow... I sure have to learn things about business. After running missions (which I realise is different from what you want to do) I go salvage the wrecks, I make rigs from the salvage and I reprocess the loot. From the minerals i get from the loot I build ammo to use/sell also Frigs/Faction frigs. Although this is a slow process as I primarily Mission so this is more of a secound income. I must say though that when I started out with manufacture I moved to a Mission Hub where I produced Scourge missiles which sold like hot cakes to the missioners, as well as others turning them into T2 missiles. Perhaps that's something to think about.
Untraceable Alt	Posted - 2010.12.07 23:20:00 - [17] @OP, stick around and read this forum for a couple of weeks. You will soon pick up the most important tricks. As for starting manufacturing, forget about the popular stuff that everyone uses. The competition will be too hard for you to have a chance. Start with the less popular stuff like the second or third most popular ship or weapon in each category. You will find margins to be higher and competition to be less fierce. Of course this means there is less money to be made and longer turnaround times, but at least you will have a chance to compete. Later on when you're ready you can move up the "food chain".
AstarothPrime	Posted - 2010.12.08 09:55:00 - [18] Edited by: AstarothPrime on 08/12/2010 09:56:37 Originally by: Darcon Kylote Edited by: Darcon Kylote on 07/12/2010 15:45:37 Originally by: MisterNick You can just about start turning a profit from cruiser BPC's, I think. I bought a 5-run thorax BPC the other day and only buy the nocxium, megacyte and zydrine, as the rest can be mined in my home system. And there you go, that is the reason so much stuff sells below "cost". Exactly Ppl dont understand that this isnt INDUSTRY profit, yet MINING profit. Driven by the same principle (i dint have it now i have it) I could say: 1) I go to my corp 0sec space 2) I shoot 2 3M ISK belts in 5 minutes 3) I can have a thorax and fit it... im best industrial there is See? True industry profit is based on MANUFACTURING like this: -- wallet balance = before 1) Buy minerals at sell order price in Jita 2) Manufacture 3) Sell product at buy order price in Jita -- wallet balance = after profit = after - before If its anything other then what I just wrote its: trading, mining or fighting profit, not industry profit. I. P.S. Ppl will tell you - you can make buy orders then manufacture - then sell. Why? This is just some extra trouble - sell raw materials and save you some of it.
Mike TheMiner	Posted - 2010.12.08 13:38:00 - [19] If you are mining to produce you will be better off mining, refining, selling the mineral somewhere where you can get a good price, then buying the item you were going to build cheap. This is the case with alot of ships and mods.
Tryaz Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.08 15:36:00 - [20] Edited by: Tryaz on 08/12/2010 15:36:13 I don't mine or produce but I've been reading this thread out of interest and I wonder if anyone who knows the EVE market could answer this question: If you're right (and I'm sure you are) that Mining to produce is often not cost effective then who is it out there who's buying these minerals at such high prices and what are they using them for?

Funesta	Posted - 2010.12.08 15:50:00 - [21] Originally by: Tryaz Edited by: Tryaz on 08/12/2010 15:36:13 I don't mine or produce but I've been reading this thread out of interest and I wonder if anyone who knows the EVE market could answer this question: If you're right (and I'm sure you are) that Mining to produce is often not cost effective then who is it out there who's buying these minerals at such high prices and what are they using them for? People kill NPCs. NPCs drop modules. NPCs did not have to buy minerals to make their modules. Thus, any module that an NPC drops will sell below mineral prices. This includes many guns, drones, and lots of common utility modules. So, if you want to make a profit at manufacturing, you build stuff that gets used up faster than NPCs can drop it (like most ammo), or you build stuff that NPCs do not drop (like ships). Things like small energy transfer array (I get dozens of those from missions) will never be profitable to make.
Shoogie Serious Pixels	Posted - 2010.12.08 16:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Tryaz Edited by: Tryaz on 08/12/2010 15:36:13 I don't mine or produce but I've been reading this thread out of interest and I wonder if anyone who knows the EVE market could answer this question: If you're right (and I'm sure you are) that Mining to produce is often not cost effective then who is it out there who's buying these minerals at such high prices and what are they using them for? People who produce to produce. When I was at the height of my manufacturing career, I was hauling multiple freighterloads of minerals out of Jita every day. I have since gotten burnt out on that and have scaled back. However, if I wanted to start up again, there is no possible way that I could mine enough minerals to keep all of my factories going. In fact, I hate mining. I gave that up years ago. It just isn't interactive enough for me. Since I stopped mining, I have made a lot of isk by examining the markets for what items make profit, buying the materials, building, and selling. While looking for items that make profit, I also find a lot of items selling for below mineral cost. I buy and reprocess them. I love those people who sell me minerals cheaply.
rain9441 Big Head Want Dolly	Posted - 2010.12.08 16:41:00 - [23] Originally by: Tryaz If you're right (and I'm sure you are) that Mining to produce is often not cost effective then who is it out there who's buying these minerals at such high prices and what are they using them for? I put up buy orders for 100's of millions of minerals. I produce ammo, drones, modules, and ships. I can go through 200 million ISK worth of minerals a day no problem. I sometimes put in an extra penny or 3 on the buy order to coerce people to bring the minerals to my station (So I don't have to haul them). The reason mining for minerals to produce is not cost effective is because you actually have to mine them. Mining in high sec is a waste of time and effort. That's why I manufacture!
Tryaz Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.11 09:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Funesta People kill NPCs. NPCs drop modules. NPCs did not have to buy minerals to make their modules. Thus, any module that an NPC drops will sell below mineral prices. This includes many guns, drones, and lots of common utility modules. So, if you want to make a profit at manufacturing, you build stuff that gets used up faster than NPCs can drop it (like most ammo), or you build stuff that NPCs do not drop (like ships). Things like small energy transfer array (I get dozens of those from missions) will never be profitable to make. Thanks, that makes alot more sense, I never considered NPC module drop
Trader Erad	Posted - 2010.12.14 12:44:00 - [25] Again, thank you for help, I am still reading the thread, so if you have more advices, please post.
Nicky's Tomb	Posted - 2010.12.14 14:16:00 - [26] High Sec T1 Manufacturing for sale is a minefield. I have looked into it many times over my few years in the game. Manufacturing for yourself, like ammo, isn't even that viable. Just sell the minerals and buy the ammo. Don't ever manufacture stuff that gets dropped as loot. The only way to make stuff profitable in manu is to train most of the relevant skills to 4 or 5, grind standings with the corps who own the factories etc. etc. Research your blueprints ME which takes weeks etc. and spend hours and hours watching the market, reading the news and reading market discussion. Then more hours and hours on spreadsheets. Where manu becomes more essential is in Low and Null sec. I seen T1 frigtes being sold for 1.2Mil in 0.0 where I was. Now, hauling down a batch of 30 frigates was only for jump freighters. But you could fairly easily jump down a blueprint and all you need is a miner and some balls and you can make the frigates. Trouble then is that the jump frieghters can always undercut your price.
Dr BattleSmith PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2010.12.18 02:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Trader Erad So what do I miss? If it's the situation, why do people even manufacture ships? Selling raw materials is much more profitable! So, veteran gamers what can you suggest? What am I doing wrong? And what items are good for manufacturing, except ammo and drones? There are margins on larger ships and such but generally the whole thing is a waste of time once everything is factored in. Best return on investment is building your own ships to PvP in. Building ships to sell and for other people to fly is pretty much wasted time.
Eve Industrialist	Posted - 2010.12.18 16:07:00 - [28] Erad, A lot of your noob questions about industry can be answered by https://eve-industrialist.com/ For example, to find out which blue prints are profitable (and what ME and TE) to research them to, I use this page https://eve-industrialist.com/eve-industrialist/building.eve Try searching for Frigates or Cruisers to start with. Pro industrialists often make their own spread sheets, which takes a lot of time and is uber-geeky. You can get similar answers from this app, and this works inside the eve-app. Uses Eve-central Jita prices by default, which may not reflect your local prices, but you do have the ability to enter your own prices.
Starch Thornwald Peniston Manufacturing	Posted - 2010.12.19 19:39:00 - [29] A few points already touched on above, but: Research your blueprint's Material Efficiency. This is easy to do, especially if you join a research alliance. Some markets, like ships, are really crowded. Lots of people want to be glamorous and make fancy ships. Do some research (for example, eve-profits.com) to find something that has better profits or less competition. Good luck!
Velicitia Open Designs	Posted - 2010.12.20 21:49:00 - [30] Edited by: Velicitia on 20/12/2010 21:50:42 Originally by: Darcon Kylote Edited by: Darcon Kylote on 07/12/2010 15:45:37 Originally by: MisterNick You can just about start turning a profit from cruiser BPC's, I think. I bought a 5-run thorax BPC the other day and only buy the nocxium, megacyte and zydrine, as the rest can be mined in my home system. And there you go, that is the reason so much stuff sells below "cost". +1 MisterNick -- you're not taking into account the opportunity cost of the minerals you mine. the Trit, Iso, and Mex that you mined doesn't have a cost of zero, but rather a cost of how much you can sell it for. Using a 0/0 (ME/PE) print you need approx 575k Trit, 145k Pye, 10k Iso, and 37.5k Mex (player skill of PE5) to build that Thorax. There are buy orders for all minerals in that system, let's say 2, 5, 55, 25 (trit,pye,iso,mex, respectively). That's approximately 3.1 million isk sunk into the Thorax. so, assuming your "profit" of 3-4 mil didn't account for this -- you're down to somewhere between -900k and 100k isk profit. If you're on the low-end of the 3-4m "profit" you should probably consider just selling the raw minerals. NOTE -- this assumes you're getting 100% refine and no station taxes on your refining as well. If you're not, you're losing somewhere between 5-55% of your mined minerals due to inefficiency/tax. That's not free either.



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