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An idea to help newcomers

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Boffin	Posted - 2005.01.14 12:04:00 - [1] I really don't know if this is an issue or not, but i have been reading through the forums this morning and read several posts where people have suggested that newcomers are put off because they are so far behind on Skill points. Possible Solution Only allow the use of Implants for a set period e.g 1 year. The RP story behind this could be that your brain just can't take using them for any longer. New players could plug in the implants to help catch up, but obviously they would never actually catch up, because once a year has gone by, their implants would then be defunct. I also think this would help encourage established players into PVP, because they would no longer have to worry about losing expensive implants. Any thoughts ?
Lilan Kahn	Posted - 2005.01.14 12:07:00 - [2] skill points hardly matter after 6-8 million skills points from there on you can only use more speciliased items the number of skill points some one have is highly over rated Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
Stront3h	Posted - 2005.01.14 12:09:00 - [3] Originally by: Boffin Any thoughts ? Yes, and the answers no. There should never be the option for new players to catch up those that have invested their time and money to get where they are.
Wendat Huron	Posted - 2005.01.14 12:20:00 - [4] How about I get some extra pay when I come to work late every morning.
seoul	Posted - 2005.01.14 12:23:00 - [5] Originally by: Stront3h Originally by: Boffin Any thoughts ? Yes, and the answers no. There should never be the option for new players to catch up those that have invested their time and money to get where they are. They would never ever catch up !!!
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.01.14 12:47:00 - [6] Edited by: Jim Steele on 14/01/2005 12:46:56 I dont think its the best idea really. Not every old player has implants especially those who do pvp there is simple no point to it! The hardcore skills only add a fractional benifit to your skill set and im sure train the right skills you could become a perfectly good raven pilot at ~4 mil sp's Death to the Galante
Antic	Posted - 2005.01.14 12:51:00 - [7] Edited by: Antic on 14/01/2005 12:52:13 what i have found puts newcommers off is the current system of PVP in the game. Im not saying make newcommers immune. But perhaps give them better info. And dont require missions to go to pirate gank space (0.4) so people that are new and poor dont go get blown to bits by griefers and quit :/ If they dont get a chance to develop their characters and get some months under their hat in the game they wont ever be able to join the PVP part of the game.
Thyro	Posted - 2005.01.14 15:03:00 - [8] Originally by: Boffin I really don't know if this is an issue or not, but i have been reading through the forums this morning and read several posts where people have suggested that newcomers are put off because they are so far behind on Skill points. Possible Solution Only allow the use of Implants for a set period e.g 1 year. The RP story behind this could be that your brain just can't take using them for any longer. New players could plug in the implants to help catch up, but obviously they would never actually catch up, because once a year has gone by, their implants would then be defunct. I also think this would help encourage established players into PVP, because they would no longer have to worry about losing expensive implants. Any thoughts ? Do you mean that everyone that joins today get a free set of skill points to close the "gap" with ones that started in Beta? Do you mean that everyone that joined 1 year ago get also the free set of skill points to close the "gap" with ones that started in Beta? Do you mean that everyone that joined 2 years ago get also the free set of skill points to close the "gap" with ones that started in Beta? Do you see here one problem? for CCP time = $, but for player time = skill points + $ wasted That is the problem! If new joiners get free skill points then all others also deserve same compensation.
Kota	Posted - 2005.01.14 15:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Stront3h Originally by: Boffin Any thoughts ? Yes, and the answers no. There should never be the option for new players to catch up those that have invested their time and money to get where they are. And thats why eve wount never get a lot of new players anymore. Not many want to play in game where others are light years ahead of you and there is no way to "catch" up. Doesn't matter how very little extra skill points mean, but it just does not seem very appealing to new players to start in game where he/she cant never get to same line than others ever.
Wendat Huron	Posted - 2005.01.14 15:22:00 - [10] Good riddance then, EVE isn't for everyone, they'd probably want several different servers, rollbacks regularly and +12 flame daggers too.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.01.14 15:28:00 - [11] Are there mmo's that dont have this issue ? -no Why do all mmo's keep drawing new players anyway ? -cause old players will quit, and cause skills arent the end-all of playing these games at all. Sure its frustrating at times, but the end difference is not in the skills but in the experience. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.01.14 15:35:00 - [12] I have no problems playing eve among all these uber skilled multigazillion sp players you people talk about. If newbies want everything right now then theyre looking at the wrong game, tell em to play counter strike. Hell, new players already have an advantage since they can reach 10 mill isk a lot faster then people did right after beta due to Advanced learning skills. --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Boffin	Posted - 2005.01.14 15:40:00 - [13] Im not suggesting that anyone is given anything !!! The idea is that after a specific period of time, 1 year, 2 years or whatever players can no longer use implants, thus slowing the rate that they can learn skills. New players are allowed to use implants for the same amount of time, 1 year, 2 years or whatever which means they can learn at the same rate as established players did in the same period. The skill point gap remains the same, just new players are a little less daunted by the fact that they are so far behind because they know older established players are learning at a slower rate. Im thinking more about the longevity of the game than anything else. Would you join in a year or two if you knew that a large portion of the player base had 80-100 million skill points. Once again, im not saying give new players anything that everyone else hasnt had access to, im just suggesting that after a given period of time the rate at which you learn skills can never be quite as fast as it was in the beginning.
Kota	Posted - 2005.01.14 15:46:00 - [14] How about just stop adding new clones and let players drop skills they dont use/need. That way new player can get to same line with everyone else eventually.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.01.14 15:52:00 - [15] Edited by: Jim Steele on 14/01/2005 15:55:37 Edited by: Jim Steele on 14/01/2005 15:53:18 old players are already learning skills at a lower rate because it takes alot longer to rank out a rank 5 skill then a rank 1 one. This means they just have to be specialised, i have about 12mil sp's which isnt that uber but i still feel capable and reacon i could cause some experinced pros some troubles depending on the way they were setup and if they had 'uber' faction loot on there BS. Basically it all comes down to modules and fittings. You must remeber eve has not just new people joining but also old dogs leaving to do other things. One must remember if 1 solo player wastes a slot on a scrambler to try and hold you thats 20% less cap recharge he will have, or lower resists etc etc etc. EvE is like chess, information on your enemy is vital to stop him. The real key tho is safety in numbers and getting the best from your missile boat. Death to the Galante
Boffin	Posted - 2005.01.14 15:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Kota How about just stop adding new clones and let players drop skills they dont use/need. That way new player can get to same line with everyone else eventually. I do not believe new players should ever be able to achieve parity with older players. I am just worried that the Skill gap keeps increasing because new players cannot afford implants/advanced learning skills etc (especially with current prices.) I agree that theoretically new players can get to 10 million skill points quicker, but how can a new player afford the +3 implants and skills.
Toran Mehtar	Posted - 2005.01.14 15:58:00 - [17] 1. Skill point gain is faster than ever for players. No such thing as advanced learning skills when I started. 2. Directly comparing skill point totals is irrelevant. It takes five times as long to train a skill from level 4 to 5 as it does from 0 to 4, yet usually only makes you 5% better. This is what CCP put in place originally to counter the 'problem' you are pointing out, and it works fine. 3. I didn't play for 10 months to get where I am now. I played for 10 months because I enjoyed it. If new players don't enjoy it regardless of how many skill points they have, then it's not the game for them.
Kota	Posted - 2005.01.14 16:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Boffin Originally by: Kota How about just stop adding new clones and let players drop skills they dont use/need. That way new player can get to same line with everyone else eventually. I do not believe new players should ever be able to achieve parity with older players. I am just worried that the Skill gap keeps increasing because new players cannot afford implants/advanced learning skills etc (especially with current prices.) Eventually it will happen like it or not. It may take years, but it will happen unless CCP increase number of skills in game so much that its not possible.
Oosel	Posted - 2005.01.14 16:16:00 - [19] skills although needed arent always the be all and end all.....i know of one of our players who has been here from day 1 retail who was only last week relieved of one of his shiney bs by 3 players none of which were over 4 months old....... skills help yes but actually knowing the game and bieng prepared far outweigh skills advatage alone... at least now when you start you have skill calculators and a far easier time than those of us who started on day 1 and had a far more difficult few months just to even get in cruisers let alone a bs so i think newer players who come now can actually get into eves myriad of twists and turns far sooner than long term players did........ for those who were around at the time of the mara/passari massacres im sure they would agree
Kerm	Posted - 2005.01.14 17:56:00 - [20] The main problem for newcomers like any game is figuring out what to do and how to do it. Remember some many months back when there was talk about corps being able to become certified noob friendly school corps? The corps that did this would get ISK for about 4weeks or something while training the noobs and some of that cash would go toward the noobs skills & ships also. It was a good idea as it would let the new players know they were entering a corp that would actually help them, as alot of newcomers are often wary of other players when they first start. Of course if a player doesnt want to be helped that much then he/she didnt have to join one of these. The idea never got pushed through though. But as Oosel said "skills help yes but actually knowing the game and bieng prepared far outweigh skills advatage alone..." is very true.
VaNessa Oney	Posted - 2005.01.14 18:00:00 - [21] New players can train skills faster then the old players were ever possible to do because from the moment you start you can begin with training all your learning skills and then your advanced learninsg skills. Thats way you will begin training faster then the old players did unless they had implants. So sorry newbees but you already have it better then we ever did, you should have started playing eve sooner and that your personal mistake that you dod not
Tadius Rhain	Posted - 2005.01.14 18:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Toran Mehtar 1. Skill point gain is faster than ever for players. No such thing as advanced learning skills when I started. 2. Directly comparing skill point totals is irrelevant. It takes five times as long to train a skill from level 4 to 5 as it does from 0 to 4, yet usually only makes you 5% better. This is what CCP put in place originally to counter the 'problem' you are pointing out, and it works fine. 3. I didn't play for 10 months to get where I am now. I played for 10 months because I enjoyed it. If new players don't enjoy it regardless of how many skill points they have, then it's not the game for them. Well said. At least, that's the way the game should be. I do have a small comment to add to your second point, though: Some skills require level 5 of another skill. This is becoming more common with new skills introduced to the game. Also, the number of cross-professional skills is increasing. For example, new mining equipment requires skills related to refining. Example - Weapons specialisation. Am I the only one that can imagine insane combat advantages at tech level 4 and corresponding huge skill requirements? Each time a skill is introduced that has a prerequisite skill at level 5 OR a cross-professional skill, it takes considerably longer for a new player to peak in a single profession. And it reduces the strength of the argument you pose in your second point. ____________________________________________ Ideas Lab - Forum Search Feature - Sign me!
OffBeaT	Posted - 2005.01.14 18:40:00 - [23] Edited by: OffBeaT on 14/01/2005 18:48:45 Edited by: OffBeaT on 14/01/2005 18:46:26 Originally by: Lilan Kahn skill points hardly matter after 6-8 million skills points from there on you can only use more speciliased items the number of skill points some one have is highly over rated omg, lilan. you still playing this game. i haven't seen you around in a real long time. its good too see your still around. you still a pirate these days? i help them myself. like i said befor its not the skills so much that gets them in the end. its the fact that they have a real hard time making any isk on there own like most of us take for granted with higher skills. i always help them buy giving them isk and skills too keep them going. i find its one of the best ways too keep them going while they tuff out the early first two months. we all can easly aford too give them a frig or cruiser. i find most players will help a noob that way. i do anyway.
Sorja	Posted - 2005.01.14 19:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Stront3h There should never be the option for new players to catch up those that have invested their time and money to get where they are. This shows most of the vets state of mind. Nice move
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2005.01.14 21:37:00 - [25] While I am against something that would make time invested in the game meaningless, I am in favor of something to give new players a 'jumpstart'. My own idea is CHEAP learning drugs that only help folks who have less than 2 million skill points, and get progressively less effective the closer to 2 million skill point you get.
teh tumblew33d	Posted - 2005.01.14 21:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Stront3h Originally by: Boffin Any thoughts ? Yes, and the answers no. There should never be the option for new players to catch up those that have invested their time and money to get where they are. This is a game and new players are also paying money to play. If new players don't have a way of catching up just a little bit, this game might seem slightly retarded, and many new players will leave after a week.
Fer Blanc	Posted - 2005.01.14 21:54:00 - [27] seems to me that people who have played the game since the beginning should _want_ people like me (on trial account) to play, each new player represents a tiny bit of new content being added to the game...not to mention a tiny bit of revenue for CCP which will continue investing it in this game while the player numbers are there. I'll admit that the real time training skills is quite daunting to someone starting the game right now. I know people that say they would like to start the game but that single item keeps them from even trying it. responses on this thread have both heartened and depressed me...I am enjoying the game so far, what limited amount I have played. we'll see I suppose. -- fer
Prince Yellow	Posted - 2005.01.15 00:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Tadius Rhain Originally by: Toran Mehtar 1. Skill point gain is faster than ever for players. No such thing as advanced learning skills when I started. 2. Directly comparing skill point totals is irrelevant. It takes five times as long to train a skill from level 4 to 5 as it does from 0 to 4, yet usually only makes you 5% better. This is what CCP put in place originally to counter the 'problem' you are pointing out, and it works fine. 3. I didn't play for 10 months to get where I am now. I played for 10 months because I enjoyed it. If new players don't enjoy it regardless of how many skill points they have, then it's not the game for them. Well said. At least, that's the way the game should be. I do have a small comment to add to your second point, though: Some skills require level 5 of another skill. This is becoming more common with new skills introduced to the game. Also, the number of cross-professional skills is increasing. For example, new mining equipment requires skills related to refining. Example - Weapons specialisation. Am I the only one that can imagine insane combat advantages at tech level 4 and corresponding huge skill requirements? Each time a skill is introduced that has a prerequisite skill at level 5 OR a cross-professional skill, it takes considerably longer for a new player to peak in a single profession. And it reduces the strength of the argument you pose in your second point. Tadius is right. Being a newbie myself I can tell you I WILL NEVER be able to catch up to ANY of you vets. The people who say "skill isn't the be all, end all" I'm sorry but your just flat wrong, and you can't relate to the problem. Plain and simple this game is designed around skill and the different combos of skill levels. The thing that makes Eve different from any game is it factors in REAL LIFE ACCOUNT AGE (just log-in change skills) and not REAL LIFE TIME INVESTED (power gaming)! I can sit here and play Eve 16 hours a day [not that I ever would or have] but I still won't EVER catch up in skill points. Isk doesn't mean **** in this game, that isn't the problem. The problem is this game totally ignores in-game time invested. Take ANY MMO(RPG) the more you play the better your character is, it makes sense. Solution is very simple, CAP THE STUPID SKILL POINTS FOR A CHARACTER! People running around with the limit of 32 mil points [highest clone] is retarded!
Sorja	Posted - 2005.01.15 01:00:00 - [29] Edited by: Sorja on 15/01/2005 01:00:54 Originally by: Prince Yellow CAP THE STUPID SKILL POINTS FOR A CHARACTER! That solves nothing. Vets may have 100 Mio skillpoints, more power to them. What would be wellcome is some way to learn faster for newcomers. Vets say they had to spend the time, but they are wrong, and here is why. When they started the game, the advanced learnings did not exist, but tech II ships and items did not exist neither ! So, when tech II went in, they only had to train the skills they didn't already had maxed. Now, when a player comes to Eve, he has to spend wayyyyyy to long on learnings and advanced learnings (which are a pain to master, since they don't have any immediate use), has to master all the skills the vets had to master, plus the new required skills for tech II, plus the forthcoming required skills for the soon-to-be-released new ships/modules. On the other hand, vets already have most relevant skills maxed, so they are always ahead. Hence why the skill system, while not bad, is not good
Clericuzio	Posted - 2005.01.15 01:06:00 - [30] I am a just over a month old, and have 1.5mil sp and yet I feel like I can play the game just as well as people who have been around longer. At the moment I'm in a Ferox, in 0.2 rat hunting, and giving the occasional griefer a run for his money, but thats because from the start I decided to go caldari combat specialisation, and I know for a fact with my setup and SP i can kill a ferox of someone with 6mil sp Skill points arent the be all and end all of this game --------------------------------------------- 2004.12.08 16:17:56 combat Your AFK at belt stupidity perfectly strikes your wallet wrecking for 10.43 million isk.

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