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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:36:00 -
[1]
TL;DR? "Check out mah setup"
Most of us are familiar with the "Pantheon" setup popularized by Rooks and Kings in their "Clarion Call" youtube series. The video demonstrated the incredible effectiveness of spider-tanking setups on capital class vessels. However, that video was published in October of 2009, preceding both the change to Titan doomsdays and Dominion-related Supercarrier proliferation.
Since then, the Aeon and Nyx have become the dominant supercarriers in capital ship engagements, and their incredible HP buffers have yielded to buffer tanking resist setups in favor of the active tanking ships of old. Instead, they rely upon cheaper carrier remote-rep support to provide their sustained EHP.
However, with the sheer amount of DPS that post-Dominion titans and supercarriers bring to bear is immense and easily exceeds the capability of a triage carrier to endure. In response, I have created the following Archon fitting which brings the remote-repair tactics even further -- from the strategy of a RR-BS to a true logistics ship, drawing both its capacitor and its reps from similarly equipped fleetmates.
The goals of this ship were twofold: Maximize EHP (to provide appropriate time to transfer reps) and maximize sustained remote repairs. By using only three capital reps and focusing on resists, this setup increases the sustained DPS per carrier from 5000, cited in the R&K video...to over 7000.
I present the Guardian-Pantheon, a supercarrier escort platform with over 2 million EHP 7225 sustained remote rep, complete with requisite ECCM and sensor boosters.
Stats with CR4, EE4, and CC4 implants
[Archon, Guardian-Pantheon]
Capital Energy Transfer Array I
Capital Energy Transfer Array I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
ECCM - Radar II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Einherji x10
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 21:05:00 -
[2]
Really? 144 views and nobody has anything to say? 
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 21:13:00 -
[3]
I'll tentatively take that as a compliment. I had been debating using remote SeBos and ECCMs. Does anyone have any opinions on this?
I'm quite looking forward to seeing what the meta-2 capital modules from Incursion do to this setup, though I am concerned that they may be too expensive for sub-supercapital ships. I suppose it remains to be seen.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 22:40:00 -
[4]
That was my thought, too. Feels good to hear it from someone else, though.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 23:06:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Aamrr on 13/12/2010 23:08:58
 Originally by: Headerman
That said, would a RR carrier have need for a Sebo? What would the locking time be onto another carrier with or without it?
Honestly, not particularly hot. Looks like it'd be about 7.73 seconds to lock another archon with this. And then you've got the 10 second capital armor rep delay...
...well, EHP only goes so far.
With the SeBo, that drops to 4.83 seconds. And since this carrier relies more on remote cap generation than local, midslot cap rechargers aren't that essential. I'd keep the SeBo.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 23:11:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Aamrr on 13/12/2010 23:13:31
I believe you're thinking of either crystal implants or capacitor safeguard rigs -- both of which apply to shields, not armor. The armor rigs mention nothing about not applying to capital ships.
EDIT: Both pyfa and EFT say nothing about it not applying to capital ships, and both of them improve the efficiency of reps when used on carriers. I think you're mistaken? 
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 00:34:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Aamrr on 14/12/2010 00:36:16
I happen to be using Pyfa for my fittings. It's a nice cross-platform program written in python. Right now, it's about to publish its second release candidate. The program in question runs capacitor simulation program that models expenditures and influx, creating a remarkably accurate picture of capacitor generation. Under this model, with the appropriate rigs and implants which DO WORK, the ship should last almost two hours. This assumes that the ship is running all modules constantly. Between delays in switching targets, this is obviously not the case. It will be stable in practice.
What you apparently failed to understand is that this ship participates in a capacitor transfer chain. Project the two capital energy transfer modules in its high slots onto itself -- you'll see that the ship achieves the stability I talked about in my post.
The rigs in question each provide a 20% reduction in the cost of the remote repair modules, with a cumulative effect that each costs only 51.2% of its base cost. The benefits of this should be obvious. Any excess repair or capacitor the fleet generates is free to be passed on to other capitals -- such as the supercarrier I talked about in my opening post.
So as you can see, when participating in a spider tank and capacitor transfer chain, the ship achieves stability. It should be obvious from the context of my post that the ship was intended to be receiving transfers from like-fitted fleetmates. If you didn't follow that, perhaps you should read the post again before you accuse me of trolling.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 00:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: CharmingButIrrational
This ship modification is designed to reduce the capacitor need for a ship's remote armor repair modules at the expense of max velocity.
Note: Does not work on capital sized modules
Funny, I just linked an image from in-game that specifically lacks that quote. Where are you finding your information?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 00:58:00 -
[9]
Because EFT has never been wrong about anything. 
Looks like we need to do some tests. Anyone want to hop on sisi?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 01:21:00 -
[10]
Given what I put together with those rigs, I'm inclined to agree. I wonder if it might have changed in a recent patch, because the information on eve-wiki contradicts what's currently being displayed on the in-game descriptions and the behavior in tranquility.
Stealth archon buff, anyone?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Headerman
Edited by: Headerman on 14/12/2010 02:15:21
I am bored at work and have been doing some EFT'ing with a Nid.
Honestly, you're not going to get much better with that ship. Nice work, but...it's no Archon, and with a rep/sec to EHP ratio like that, it'll get primaried rather promptly.
One of the advantages of the Archon setup I linked above is that it's not an attractive target to primary -- you're just not going to be doing much damage to a ship tanked that heavily. The Nidhoggur, lacking the resist bonus and capacitor of the Amarrian hull, can't really compete.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Headerman
Damage Control II
Faction smartbomb to get rid of the clouds of ECM drones. Also, deplorable lack of ECCM. :(
-Liang
I agree with you Liang, I really do, but the Nidhoggur is just so capacitor constrained...
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:47:00 -
[13]
I would drop the damage control for a capacitor power relay, to be honest. You're already painfully low on capacitor stability as it is, and the damage control actually gives less tank than an EANM would.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 03:09:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Septu Resheph
varying amounts of rage
And yet you still don't get it. You just don't. With the appropriate skills and implants, including the remote repair augmentor rigs, this ship only consumes 503 capacitor per second. It's receiving 200 cap/second for each capital energy transfer projected onto the ship. 99.7+200+200 ~= 500. Stable.
You might as well criticize a twin-guardian for generating "only" 20 capacitor per second. It's the same principle -- one which you stubbornly refuse to understand.
--
And FYI, you can be racist by saying positive things about a group too. The "asians are good at math" stereotype is an example of this. It's still stereotyping, whether you want to admit it or not.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 03:57:00 -
[15]
Does anyone know off-hand how much low-grade slave implants cost? A couple of the cheaper ones might not be a terrible investment, either.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 04:09:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Aamrr on 14/12/2010 04:09:26
Funny -- first I'm criticized for T2 fitting a billion isk ship, now the IN EANMs are too expensive. I've been toying with the idea of only using one of them, since it's 87% effective, while the second is only 53% effective.
Also, I'm not quite sure what you mean about the slave implants. Isn't the sansha supercarrier a shield tanker?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 04:17:00 -
[17]
Oh, so you're entirely impartial. Good to know. 
In any case, I think I'm going to start training for an archon. The biggest problem will be finding an alliance with fleetmates willing to dedicate two energy reps to the spider tank.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 04:48:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Septu Resheph
<snip> ignoring this as we've spent quite enough time this already </snip>
#2) lets go into simple math for your tiny brain to comprehend, try to follow.
Capital Energy Transfer Array. 1350 cost per activation, duration 10 seconds, target cap bonus 2000. Now I know this is difficult for you to comprehend so get out your calculator so you don't hurt yourself 2000 (transferred amount) -1350 (activation cost)= 650 effective Cap bonus after figuring the cost of activation of said module. Now this next part may go over your head because I know its complicated for you, 650 (effective bonus) / 10 (duration) = 65 effective cap per second.
Now I know this is a difficult concept for your tiny brain to comprehend but what the hell are we missing here because we are obviously not seeing eye to eye. I must be missing something. Please do explain this to me instead of your pathetic attempts to insult me.
I wasn't claiming that it gave 200 net capacitor per second. I claimed that it gave gross 200 cap per second. And it does. 2000 capacitor/cycle * 1 cycle/second = 200 cap/second.
And indeed, two of these transfers plus my inate 99.7 regen gives the 500 capacitor per second that I had claimed.
Now, if you're contesting my claim that only 503 capacitor per second is necessary, perhaps you should remind yourself that skills like (capital) energy emission systems reduce the cost of these modules, as does the Squire 'EE4' implant I mentioned in my post.
Or do I need to explain the difference between "gross" and "net" to you? 
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 05:19:00 -
[19]
My, what a charmingly eloquent argument. More ad hominem attacks; couldn't have seen that coming.
Let the record show that with the appropriate skills, rigs, and implants, my ship gets in 499.7 cap/sec, and burns 503. Certainly not stable, but close enough for practical purposes.
With that now quite thoroughly established, I'll let the sustained 7000 EHP/sec tank figure stand.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 06:52:00 -
[20]
...point conceded.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 17:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Indeterminacy
Hey I don't fly carriers but, did you get rid of those complete useless rigs yet?
Quote:
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
...
Note: Does not work on capital sized modules
Given the page-long discussion we had over this, I'm going to assume you're baiting me for a response. I'm going to point you to the previous page of discussion, current-game-screenshots, and sisi tests, then leave it at that.
With that said, I'm anticipating that the new Incursion meta-2 capital modules will free up a fair bit of capacitor on this ship. Assuming I'm able to free up a midslot from cap recharge, what should I put on instead -- perhaps a web or point?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:06:00 -
[22]
Good point on the mindflood boosters. They completely slipped my mind (I guess I disregarded them because of the drawbacks). Low-grade slaves would be quite nice for this ship, possibly even saving it from a doomsday, but I'm not sure if they're cost effective, as I don't have the numbers on them. For that matter, a ZET500 +3% armor implant wouldn't be a bad idea either. Still, those talismans WERE impressive...
As for gang links, I'd probably prefer an unscannable legion for that job, but if you're forced to put it on a carrier, I suppose that's better than nothing.
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