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egola Amarr	Posted - 2010.12.15 22:28:00 - [31] one final issue: how can you confirm someone truly "abandoned" the deposit? do you just post and ask, is it implied if the loan is extended longer then the original loan period? also do you guys do cheap buy backs for those of us who aren't using such ships but managed to get it at a steal(in otherwords, us selling to you not as manufacturers but as regular players with one or two ships)?
daisy dook	Posted - 2010.12.15 23:59:00 - [32] Originally by: Cista2 Re: rigs We will be leasing rigged and faction-fitted ships as we develop. In fact that is the best niche we may get - those ships you cannot sell on the market. The leasing will always be free for the client if ships are returned - and we will base the business model on how many ship don't get returned. Want to join your sister suicide ganking corp...
Mielono Caldari SWARTA	Posted - 2010.12.16 03:06:00 - [33] Edited by: Mielono on 16/12/2010 03:06:22 Originally by: daisy dook Originally by: Cista2 Re: rigs We will be leasing rigged and faction-fitted ships as we develop. In fact that is the best niche we may get - those ships you cannot sell on the market. The leasing will always be free for the client if ships are returned - and we will base the business model on how many ship don't get returned. Want to join your sister suicide ganking corp... If they even have that anywhere in their business model then I want to invest in them ASAP. It would show a level of cleverness above and beyond the one they are already showing with this current model. Also for the people saying they are being used in possibly ship speculation, in the end this does not matter since they still recieve the deposit on the ships that were used on speculation and during the period that they were holding onto your deposit they went ahead and bought a new ship to replace the one you purchased and have leased it out at the new speculation price. Then when they recieve a cannot return this ship message they know they do not even have to return your iskies to you. Honestly its a good setup as long as they have a patient backer and a crew dedicated to it working. As well as a godly amount of record keeping and a few traders who know their stuff in the background. Thumbs up I like the idea and recognize some of the roots behind it from some of the people involved. Originally by: Culmen A cat is like that carebear who sticks around only while there's food, and at best kills a few rats.A dog F*cking enforces NBSI, and deep down is slightly disappointed you aren't tak
Sistar2 EVE Free Ship Shop Ltd.	Posted - 2010.12.16 07:05:00 - [34] Originally by: egola one final issue: how can you confirm someone truly "abandoned" the deposit? do you just post and ask, is it implied if the loan is extended longer then the original loan period? also do you guys do cheap buy backs for those of us who aren't using such ships but managed to get it at a steal(in otherwords, us selling to you not as manufacturers but as regular players with one or two ships)? There will be no confirmation of "abandoned" deposits, the business model will be more dynamic. We buy at most a few of each ship type. As soon as 1 ship leaves us, we may go out and buy a new one of the same type etc. We envision a continual going and coming of ships. We just have to make sure never to get into an EVE-bank situation where we have massive debt in ships "out" and clients do not have confidence that we have the finances to buy back ships. Re. ships, you can always pawn a ship with us at a low price. If you have ships regularly, you can be listed as a ship provider through Sistar2 and set your own price. -------------------- Join the "EFSS" chatroom or the Signatures chatroom
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.12.16 07:13:00 - [35] Edited by: Cista2 on 16/12/2010 07:13:47 Originally by: Mielono Originally by: daisy dook Want to join your sister suicide ganking corp... If they even have that anywhere in their business model then I want to invest in them ASAP. Something like this already came up for discussion, it was never considered though. We rely upon the fact that sometimes ships DO get blown up in EVE, but even more we expect some clients will simply keep the ship, or at least keep it for many months. You have to remember we don't receive any isk per se when a ship blows up, in fact we may never find out. Trying to organise gank squads would neither be ethically, logistically or economically sound. Edit: sorry (also in advance) for the alt mixups. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / LLSE Stock Market
Sistar2 EVE Free Ship Shop Ltd.	Posted - 2010.12.16 08:38:00 - [36] The Shop is now advertised (with wrong alt ) on the Sell Forum. -------------------- Join the "EFSS" chatroom or the Signatures chatroom
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.12.16 14:43:00 - [37] Looked at your sales thread and I see a problem. Renting a freighter is not that appealing at your prices. It would be easy to just buy a freighter and use the extra ISK saved to purchase and move extra goods. Chances on losing major amount of ISK on buying/selling a freighter is minimal. This sort of service is tailored to exotic ships which are fully rigged. The problem with someone "loaning" a pimp ship is that if the ship is popped the loaner loses EFSS sale price - Jita sell price. As great as the concept is, I personally don't see it being that successful. As an investment I believe it is even worse. The only way the business makes money is by a player defaulting, i.e. not returning the ship. At what point will this profit be recognised? What if the loaner doesn't inform you of the loss. This business model will tend to eat capital rather than generate it,
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.12.16 15:28:00 - [38] Originally by: cosmoray This sort of service is tailored to exotic ships which are fully rigged. We agree, and it is in the pipes. Originally by: cosmoray This business model will tend to eat capital rather than generate it, At the moment we are looking for capital. The capital will be used on ships. How can the capital be lost? All we do is make a guarantee that someone can get a deposit returned, but they have to make the deposit first. The way we can lose money is if prices on ships drop massively, so when a ship is returned the current sell price in e.g. Jita is lower than what we bought the ship for. A second way to lose money is if we give guarantees on ships that are failrigged. So IMO, there is nothing faulty with the business model, and succes depends on our skill at trading ships. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / LLSE Stock Market
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.16 15:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Cista2 Originally by: cosmoray This sort of service is tailored to exotic ships which are fully rigged. We agree, and it is in the pipes. Originally by: cosmoray This business model will tend to eat capital rather than generate it, At the moment we are looking for capital. The capital will be used on ships. How can the capital be lost? All we do is make a guarantee that someone can get a deposit returned, but they have to make the deposit first. The way we can lose money is if prices on ships drop massively, so when a ship is returned the current sell price in e.g. Jita is lower than what we bought the ship for. A second way to lose money is if we give guarantees on ships that are failrigged. So IMO, there is nothing faulty with the business model, and succes depends on our skill at trading ships. I'll be interested to see how this turns out. Well done on a creative idea. Projects Blog
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Horrible Labs SRS.	Posted - 2010.12.16 16:45:00 - [40] Without partnering with a suicide ganking specialist, I don't see where you'll be creating any capital, particularly given that rigs are considered a loss item, once purchased. Your ability to liquidate the ships in the event you need to return capital seems rather limited.
captain foivos	Posted - 2010.12.16 17:20:00 - [41] A deposit...worth more than the hull value of the ship... No, I don't foresee any problems or issues with this business model. Originally by: CCP Zulu You're assuming I read threads before I turdpost in them :)
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.12.16 19:38:00 - [42] Why do I think the plan will eat capital. Lets me give an estimation of how the business will work. 1. Lets say the company buys 5 faction ships and puts rigs on them (doesn't have to have rigs). 2. Lets say the company spends 4B on these faction ships 3. 5 customers come in and "loan" the faction ships placing deposits worth 4.5B ISK 4. Company is sitting on a "potential" profit of 0.5B ISK. 5. That capital deposit has to stay liquid because as soon as a customer comes back you return all the deposit to the customer for the ship. 6. More customers turn up, and you loan out more ships, which requires more capital. Again the deposit has to stay liquid to repay deposits. In this business model you have tied up all your capital without a guaranteed return. The only time you could show a profit is if a customer loses his/her ship. In most cases though if the customer is smart he will replace the ship (put rigs on if it had any), and contract back to you for a small trading profit to reduce his/her losses. Again you will be back with lots of assets and no profits. The only profitable time is if a customer takes a ship and doesn't come back. When will the company know when this time has been reached? There is no time limitation in the sales thread. The company has a lot of assets/capital and very low profit which can not be guaranteed or consistent. As an investment it is very poor. The idea is a good one, but only in terms of a public service.
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.12.17 10:09:00 - [43] Originally by: cosmoray The only profitable time is if a customer takes a ship and doesn't come back. When will the company know when this time has been reached? There is no time limitation in the sales thread. That's right, but we will slap one on there soon. One model could be: every 1st of the month we will send a notification, and the client must tell us if they will still be using the ship. 3 weeks later a new notification if they didnt respond, or they lose the right to the deposit at the turn of the month. Another, maybe better model, is to make a principal agreement with each client the time they want to have the ship. For instance, if the agreement is 3 months, then there is a window from 2 to 4 months where they are allowed to hand back the ship. Then everybody knows from the start where we're at. We can then use the capital smartly, knowing how much debt we will have outgoing next month and next month etc. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / LLSE Stock Market
Samroski Games Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.17 12:01:00 - [44] Originally by: Cista2 Another, maybe better model, is to make a principal agreement with each client the time they want to have the ship. For instance, if the agreement is 3 months, then there is a window from 2 to 4 months where they are allowed to hand back the ship. A 30 day grace period for a loan of 90 days is 33%. For a loan of 30 days, the grace period ends up as 10 days. Seems reasonable. Though for shorter loans a minimum of one week grace period should be reasonable. The client should of course have an option to extend the period if necessary.
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.12.17 16:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Samroski Should actually be interesting to see what the actual no-show/return figure ends up as. If it is more than 10%, the profits could be significant. We'll find out if we get any customers We now have a working trade corp, a great crew, and finances. And out there are tens of thousands of players that are contemplating buying a Raven or a Charon with all the few isk they have. They will use us if they find out we exist, especially since we are offering very low prices as introduction. We will be on MD, in Sell Orders, in your face, in a store near you, and even in Jita local from now on. We work hard to get this going. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / LLSE Stock Market
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.12.17 17:54:00 - [46] Originally by: Cista2 Originally by: Samroski Should actually be interesting to see what the actual no-show/return figure ends up as. If it is more than 10%, the profits could be significant. We'll find out if we get any customers We now have a working trade corp, a great crew, and finances. And out there are tens of thousands of players that are contemplating buying a Raven or a Charon with all the few isk they have. They will use us if they find out we exist, especially since we are offering very low prices as introduction. We will be on MD, in Sell Orders, in your face, in a store near you, and even in Jita local from now on. We work hard to get this going. Why would you want to loan normal T1 ships? The loss after insurance would be much smaller than the loss after loaning from you. T1 ships tend to hold value in a fluctuating market better than faction or T2 ships. This idea only really works with exotic ships, and I am not sure how many people will embrace the idea of paying more for a ship than its worth on the market tab. Most investors or people in MD can afford the ships outright, so it is an ask to get new players into the fold.
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.12.17 18:16:00 - [47] Edited by: Cista2 on 17/12/2010 18:19:01 Edited by: Cista2 on 17/12/2010 18:17:33 Originally by: cosmoray The loss after insurance would be much smaller than the loss after loaning from you. Thanks for your comments so far, they have been extremely helpful in helping us see how we can better handle our outstanding liabilities. I must however repeat, that for the client there is never any "loss", that's why it is called Free ship shop. Originally by: cosmoray Most investors or people in MD can afford the ships outright, so it is an ask to get new players into the fold. Yes, it is a problem getting the message out to the new players. I remember clearly when I had saved up for my first Hurricane, I would definitely have used this shop back then every time I wanted a new ship, destroyer, cruiser, anything. Heck, I didn't even know what a buy order was back then, and there are many new players like that out there. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / LLSE Stock Market
Kei Darker	Posted - 2010.12.17 18:47:00 - [48] Confirming that I am the first and most loyal customer of EFFS. Ships possessed from EFFS: Crane - Acquired December 17th - Jita 4-4
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.12.17 19:04:00 - [49] Originally by: Kei Darker Confirming that I am the first and most loyal customer of EFFS. Ships possessed from EFFS: Crane - Acquired December 17th - Jita 4-4 That's brillant! Could you please post on the sell thread, because that is the forum where we want to get things going (MD is already drooling). ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / LLSE Stock Market
Turat	Posted - 2010.12.17 22:33:00 - [50] i like this idea but i was going to loan a providence from you then they spiked to 740 yet 3 jumps away its 649, i do not plan on holding on to the ship for long but thats 100mil and thats alot of invention. does a option exist to remedy this situation ?
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2010.12.17 22:41:00 - [51] DonÆt get me wrong Cista2, I like your idea of a ship rental shop, and I think there is a market for it in EVE. However, your business model is faulty, and it hasnÆt been scrutinized properly. As it stands, I see it as business waiting to fail. Originally by: Sistar2 In short: The Shop letÆs you borrow a ship for a deposit and return the ship to retrieve the same deposit any time you want. A business that makes no money is bound to fail. If you want to run it as a charity, thatÆs fine, but who is going to cover the business losses? You or the shareholders? This has not been specified anywhere in your business plan. Originally by: Sistar2 But however does EFSS make money if the ships can be borrowed for free? Answer: The deposit may be higher than the value of the ship. Although you can get the deposit back in full, we dispose of it while you are in posession of the ship. If the ship is not handed back we keep the deposit. Obviously, if the customer returns the ship, you make no ISK. This represents a loss in opportunity cost to shareholders. You later said: ôThe Company earns money when ships DON'T come back.ö Again, you are blinding yourself. Profit = Deposit û Ship Replacement Cost (or Ship Acquisition Cost). Therefore, you stand to loose ISK even if the ship doesnÆt come back. There must be a penalty for not returning the ships; otherwise ships are likely not to come back when you stand to loose ISK. It must be made clear that you are running a rental shop, not a hedge fund. In addition, rigs are a direct cost to you, and because you canÆt remove rigs without destroying them, they represent a loss to your business. In addition, there are issues with liquidity that have been pointed out by cosmoray. I have several ideas to address this issue. For this business model to succeed you need to generate enough income to cover potential losses, employee salaries, management fees, and unrelated costs. In addition, it is imperative that you either include rental fees, or have arranged for some form of charitable contributions. Otherwise, I see nothing but a total failure. Regards, Block Ukx BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.12.17 22:57:00 - [52] Originally by: Turat i like this idea but i was going to loan a providence from you then they spiked to 740 yet 3 jumps away its 649, i do not plan on holding on to the ship for long but thats 100mil and thats alot of invention. does a option exist to remedy this situation ? Try sending a mail to Oxianes about the price. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / LLSE Stock Market
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.12.17 23:11:00 - [53] I have been trying to get my head around this business model and how it would make money. I do like the idea, but it doesn't lend itself to a viable business. Business Model 1. Lets say EFSS loans out ships with a deposit at 10% over Jita price (or what EFSS pays). 10% over Jita price is close to max or it makes sense to purchase. 2. Lets say that for every 10 ships loaned out 1 will default. (Remember that even if ship is destroyed it is profitable for loanee to purchase the ship and trade to EFSS to get the deposit back) 3. If the above default rates are correct the company will earn a return of 1% on capital for every 10 ships loaned (10% of 1/10th of the ships loaned is 1%) 4. If the default rate is 25% the return will be 2.5% for every 10 ships loaned. Capital/Assets 5. If total asset base is say 10B ISK, spread over 20 ships the average ship is worth 500M ISK. 6. Using above criteria the return will be approximately between 100 - 250M ISK over agreed rental period (rental period is time EFSS states at which point loan is defaulted). Return On Capital (Profitability) 7. Current rental agreement seems to be 1 month with 1 month grace. 8. Profitibility will be between 1-2.5% / rental period (months) 9. Current return is approximately 0.5% - 1.25% per month in best case scenario Is that sort of work worth what the business is expected to make? If the business is going to be run as a charity to help players that is great but as a business I can't see it being successful.
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.12.17 23:11:00 - [54] Edited by: Cista2 on 17/12/2010 23:16:26 Originally by: Block Ukx Obviously, if the customer returns the ship, you make no ISK. This represents a loss in opportunity cost to shareholders. Not entirely correct. In the time frame that we have the deposit in our posession, we can buy other ships that are leased to other clients who may lose their ships although this particular client comes back. That is business opportunity. Originally by: Block Ukx If you want to run it as a charity, thatÆs fine, but who is going to cover the business losses? You or the shareholders? This has not been specified anywhere in your business plan. Au contraire, it is stated clearly that Cista2 has nothing to do financially with the succes of the company, and will not profit. I have donated some isk, and I am working as ceo, but financially the company must set its own sails now. Edit: that Cista2 is not involved financially with the company is stated on the share sale thread as information for investors. The investors will have to carry the burden. And the crew get shares as salary as well. Originally by: Block Ukx Therefore, you stand to loose ISK even if the ship doesnÆt come back. There must be a penalty for not returning the ships Yes, after comments from Cosmoray we now have a set return date for every ship. The return date is decided by the client, but there is a window surrounding the date. The ship cannot be returned outside the window. Beyond a certain threshold the deposit is lost. Knowing the time of return of each ship allows us to dispose better over our capital, and in addition it tells us which ships we will have more of in the coming month for instance. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / LLSE Stock Market
Vorekk Gallente LowBall Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.12.18 00:56:00 - [55] Originally by: Lecherito if a pilot has enough to purchase the ship and then some...why not just purchase the ship himself and avoid the "rental fees" ? After skimming the topic, it is my understanding that there are no rental fees. Also, you will almost always lose money if you purchase a ship, use it, then sell it once its no longer useful to you (especially if the ship is rigged). OP's corp will "sell" you a ship, then when you return it, you get your deposit back. Costs you nothing, unless you lose the ship. IE buy a Punisher from them for 100,000 ISK. You lost the ship? They skim the profit. You return the ship? You lose nothing. And yes the Punisher is a bad example. --- Join Lowball Heavy Industries. Small, focused fleets - lots of high intensity action, the EVE way.
Kei Darker	Posted - 2010.12.18 04:47:00 - [56] Originally by: Cista2 Edited by: Cista2 on 17/12/2010 23:34:43 Originally by: cosmoray Remember that even if ship is destroyed it is profitable for loanee to purchase the ship and trade to EFSS to get the deposit back Hold on. That was clever. And bad. Maybe even really bad. I am going to sleep on that. Simply put, it is profitable for both EFSS and the customer in this case. Because the difference is used to invest in the meantime, thus profit, amiright? It's a win-win.
Sistar2 EVE Free Ship Shop Ltd.	Posted - 2010.12.18 07:54:00 - [57] There were upwards of 5,000 viewers on the 4 threads, but hats off for Cosmoray who pointed out the fatal flaw. Of course he is right, every single ship will be returned to us for a full deposit return, unless the pilot has left New Eden. If it blows up he can buy and return another. Even if the pilot loves his ship and sleeps in it when he gets home at night, he can still buy another and "return" that one to EFSS. This makes the whole buyback guarantee an act of charity, and the aim was to make money. What can you say, it's EVE. I am closing this shop. My apologies to Dezolf, Liberty and Ramingo, who were already doing a hell of a good job. I wish you lots of success. -------------------- Join the "EFSS" chatroom or the Signatures chatroom
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.12.18 07:56:00 - [58] The guarantee on the ship sold to Kei Darker is maintained by myself. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / LLSE Stock Market

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