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Rifter VS. Punisher VS Incursus

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ARES 003	Posted - 2010.12.15 18:47:00 - [1] Ok ok, so I started out as Amarr and I wanted to fight some people at this station, so I take this rifter's can, he pwns me (im in a punisher), and then tells me I should train for a rifter, so I'm like "ok!", train autocannons, get in my rifter, go fight an Incursus, and was dominated by his superior tank damage and speed. I decide to train blasters and buy an Incursus, guess what? I get BBQed by a rifter. I am just wondering which one is actually the superior and which one I should stick with. I also would like a good fit for which one you recommend pls.
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2010.12.15 18:55:00 - [2] Maybe it is because you haven't been playing very long and so your skills aren't great and you also don't know the right tactics with the ships you're using. I would say just stick with the Punisher. [Punisher, Pwnisher] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Nosferatu II [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] For rigs I usually put 3x Capacitor Control Circuits or 2x Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster and 1x Small Energy Burst Aerator. For ammo bring Multifrequency and Scorch. If whoever you're fighting orbits close, your Multi, if they decide to kite you at 5-8km, use Scorch. Train Thermodynamics so you can overheatd your afterburner and scram when they try to run away, get your gunnery and armor tanking skills up, kill other frigs and die to other frigs.
oldmanst4r Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:02:00 - [3] Originally by: Tony SoXai Maybe it is because you haven't been playing very long and so your skills aren't great and you also don't know the right tactics with the ships you're using. I would say just stick with the Punisher. [Punisher, Pwnisher] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Nosferatu II [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] For rigs I usually put 3x Capacitor Control Circuits or 2x Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster and 1x Small Energy Burst Aerator. For ammo bring Multifrequency and Scorch. If whoever you're fighting orbits close, your Multi, if they decide to kite you at 5-8km, use Scorch. Train Thermodynamics so you can overheatd your afterburner and scram when they try to run away, get your gunnery and armor tanking skills up, kill other frigs and die to other frigs. You are doing it wrong, you want to fit ACs to a punisher. But back to the OP, best frig is the rifter and minmatr are a great PvP race so I would them. Cookie Cutter Rifter Fit [Rifter - Standard Murder] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates 1MN Afterburner II Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II 150mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S] 150mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S] 150mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S] Small Nosferatu II Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I Originally by: CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:15:00 - [4] Originally by: oldmanst4r You are doing it wrong, you want to fit ACs to a punisher. Yea, that would be a great idea without the ability to dictate range
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:43:00 - [5] Yeah no, AC punisher kinda sucks compared to laser punisher IMO. It uses lasers for a reason - range. you cannot dictate range so you are able to shoot at ranges other frigs will orbit at with lasers optimal range. It also gets a cap use bonus to them so crying about how they use cap is kind of worthless when on top of that the Punisher has great cap capacity. I am also sick of hearing rifter this and rifter that.
Roscojameson	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:03:00 - [6] Originally by: Tony SoXai I am also sick of hearing rifter this and rifter that. Well, the rifter is the best all around frigate out there. What do you expect? What I've learned flying in frigate vs frigate fights, the incursus is the best if you can use T2 blasters so you can use null. Otherwise the rifter is just going to kite you to death, and he still might if you don't fly well. It still might be smarter for you to just go Minnie as they are the best race for small skirmishes.
oldmanst4r Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:10:00 - [7] Edited by: oldmanst4r on 15/12/2010 20:10:56 Originally by: Tony SoXai Yeah no, AC punisher kinda sucks compared to laser punisher IMO. It uses lasers for a reason - range. you cannot dictate range so you are able to shoot at ranges other frigs will orbit at with lasers optimal range. It also gets a cap use bonus to them so crying about how they use cap is kind of worthless when on top of that the Punisher has great cap capacity. I am also sick of hearing rifter this and rifter that. Lasers versus ACs is debatable. What I would say is that I find that lasers have tracking problems at close range with no web, and since you can't dictate range with a punisher I prefer to have the additional real dps and cap that using autocannons gives. Plus, you can still do decent damage anywhere within scram/web range with barrage, especially if you tack on a couple of ambit rigs. Though of course, the main problem with the Punisher is that it is completely unable to dictate range. This makes it impossible to prevent anything you fight from disengaging if they start to lose, so really you are relying on the stupidity of the other pilot to get you kills which I don't find very reliable. You also are unable to disengage yourself, forcing you to commit entirely to every fight. That is why everyone recommends the rifter. You may be sick of hearing it but the rifter can dictate range against any other frig and can fit tank, dps, and a full set of tackle. It is flexible fitting wise, and there are several excellent fits for the rifter, TD rifter, Armor Buffer, Shield/Neut, and active armor. The only frigate than can consistently challenge a rifter 1v1 is the Merlin, and that's a toss up depending on how each one is fitted. I am recommending the rifter because it is the most powerful ship a newbie can get into, the punisher is fun to fly (I love the thing) but it is by no means the best frig. Originally by: CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Roscojameson Originally by: Tony SoXai I am also sick of hearing rifter this and rifter that. Well, the rifter is the best all around frigate out there. What do you expect? What I've learned flying in frigate vs frigate fights, the incursus is the best if you can use T2 blasters so you can use null. Otherwise the rifter is just going to kite you to death, and he still might if you don't fly well. It still might be smarter for you to just go Minnie as they are the best race for small skirmishes. See it is not just the Rifter, but the idea that Minnie are better in skirmishes than everyone else. They may be the best because of their speed but not by a lot. Sacrilege/Curse/Ishtar are all godly at what they do, Ishtar being more versatile than any of them, depending on what you are doing with it you can fit it out in MANY different ways, certainly more than you can fit out a Vagabond or a Huginn. IMO The punisher/rifter/incursus are pretty much as good as eachother (maybe merlin too but not had experience with that one), but I strongly favour the Punisher or Incursus because everyone thinks the rifter is so damn good. An Incursus will (true story) wreck a rifter almost every time but since the only people who fly them usually are noobs (because everyone says rifter is beastin s they train minnie frig) the rifter kills the incursus a lot more. And same goes for the punisher - this one simply outtanks it by so much that the 30 or so more dps from a rifter is irrelevent and after that the only thing a rifter has is speed to gtfo. TLDR rifter is overrated and Laser punisher is beastin.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:30:00 - [9] Frigate combat is not as much a spreadsheet game as for the larger hulls. Player skill plays a significant part in what works and what doesn't. You repeatedly die because you keep switching ships in the hopes of finding the iWin button .. guess what: iWin doesn't exist in the frigate level (Dramiel is pwn'ed by new rocks and uber-tracking guns). Pick a ship you like and fly it constantly until you can find the coffee maker without powering up the lights. Punisher served me very well in a laser/active tank configuration, quite handy to be able to repair all damage for 30s in a 1v1 fight :)
Truculent Misanthrope Amarr Generic Internet Spaceships Trading Corp	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:02:00 - [10] How to Punisher when you don't have to worry about roaming: [Punisher, HowToPunisher] Damage Control II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Gyrostabilizer II 1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I 10K ehp, neut, reasonable dps. Only your mids stop working when you hit 0 cap, guns and tank keep going. Tactic to use it is REALLY simple. Approach target, scram, shoot. Fails epically to anyone who tries to kite but hey, Punishers aren't meant to zoom around. They're bricks. Should smash anyone who tries to slug it out though.

Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:04:00 - [11] Originally by: Tony SoXai TLDR rifter is overrated and Laser punisher is beastin. And then you will meet ab, web, td rifter and you wont land a single decent hit on him lol.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:07:00 - [12] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 And then you will meet ab, web, td rifter and you wont land a single decent hit on him lol. And then he'll...warp away? Unless that was a "pick one or two of these" list. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:10:00 - [13] Edited by: Lugalzagezi666 on 15/12/2010 21:12:39 Yes, he will definitely warp out with scram on him and being 200m/s slower than you. E: Yes, my fault, i meant scram. But you knew it, didnt you?
Yoru Yukhantstev	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:11:00 - [14] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 And then you will meet ab, web, td rifter and you wont land a single decent hit on him lol. And then he'll...warp away? Unless that was a "pick one or two of these" list. He meant AB/Scram/TD not AB/Web/TD, and yes TD rifter will F**k you up.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:13:00 - [15] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 15/12/2010 21:14:03 Originally by: Yoru Yukhantstev He meant AB/Scram/TD not AB/Web/TD That makes a bit more sense. Carry on all... ED for Luls's ED: Yeah, I should have just assumed that. I'll use my brain and not just go directly into smartass mode in the future. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Dante Cowboy	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:16:00 - [16] What's a good fit for an incursus to take on a rifter?
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Dante Cowboy What's a good fit for an incursus to take on a rifter? Ab, web, scram + rails. It will be very close even if you do positioning before fight right.
Herping yourDerp	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:21:00 - [18] you prolly lost the the incursus because it is a t2 ship, with 5 drones, and a better tank its a hard fight for any pilot
Doddy Burning Vendetta	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:23:00 - [19] I would always fly rifter for the speed and versatility, but i would expect to die if i let an incursus get close. In truth the t1 frigates are probably the level at which ccp has found the best balance, it really does come down to the pilot. You will never get good with any ship if you dump it every time you die. Pick one and stick with it.
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:25:00 - [20] Originally by: Dante Cowboy What's a good fit for an incursus to take on a rifter? This is pretty good vs rifters and other ships as well. [Incursus, Incursus] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II 1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Stasis Webifier II Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Hobgoblin II x1 Downgrade to smaller stuff as needed.

Doddy Burning Vendetta	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:26:00 - [21] Edited by: Doddy on 15/12/2010 21:25:56 Originally by: Herping yourDerp you prolly lost the the incursus because it is a t2 ship, with 5 drones, and a better tank its a hard fight for any pilot I believe that would be the ishkur dude. Incursus is the hull the ishkur (and enyo) is based on.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Tony SoXai TLDR rifter is overrated and Laser punisher is beastin. And then you will meet ab, web, td rifter and you wont land a single decent hit on him lol. Very much depends on what you fit. - 125mm AC has no real issues tracking. - Gatling has no real issues tracking. - DLP + 1 rig has no real issues tracking. - MP is screwed against AB, period. Don't even need a TD to mess that one up hard As in all frigate fights it is as much the pilots situational awareness as it is his ability to fit properly. Manual piloting will get you a long way towards rendering a TD worthless, only real exception is if speed difference is astronomical (ie. scrammed MWD, Dramiel).
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Tony SoXai TLDR rifter is overrated and Laser punisher is beastin. And then you will meet ab, web, td rifter and you wont land a single decent hit on him lol. Very much depends on what you fit. - 125mm AC has no real issues tracking. - Gatling has no real issues tracking. - DLP + 1 rig has no real issues tracking. - MP is screwed against AB, period. Don't even need a TD to mess that one up hard As in all frigate fights it is as much the pilots situational awareness as it is his ability to fit properly. Manual piloting will get you a long way towards rendering a TD worthless, only real exception is if speed difference is astronomical (ie. scrammed MWD, Dramiel). This is wrong. Not even a thrasher using 125s will be able to track nearly as well with a TD applied, especially against a rifter. And about manual piloting, this has never worked for me, in frig fights, even when we were both pretty much immobile, I would miss sometimes, so no it will not render a TD useless. Manual piloting is, in my experience, nearly useless. Not nearly as useful as the ability to align and turn on your ab, anyway.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:34:00 - [24] Rifter pilot will just load barrage, optimal script, set "keep at range 7k" and its over. Also rifter CAN outtrack even small acs on hull without tracking bonus and no web.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:42:00 - [25] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 15/12/2010 21:45:10 Originally by: Tony SoXai ... And about manual piloting, this has never worked for me, in frig fights, even when we were both pretty much immobile... I bolded the part that should give you clue as to why it didn't work. Manoeuvring is the single most effective counter to a TD, much more than enhancers and computers, especially on frigate level where everything takes place in a <15km sphere. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Rifter pilot will just load barrage, optimal script, set "keep at range 7k" and its over. Also rifter CAN outtrack even small acs on hull without tracking bonus and no web. Have fun trying to break a Punisher tank with barrage at that range .. hope you brought reloads Scorch allows DLP to hit you for more than you are hitting him, keep at range fluctuates with a few km when speeds are uneven, been there - done that - killed that. Only Rifter I have lost a Laser Punisher to, after I got to terms with the ship class, was an oversize plate bastard with ECM .. almost got him to hull but damn that was a lot of armour.
Major Stuart The Green Cross Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:45:00 - [26] Buffer Tank Merlin > all
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:51:00 - [27] You will cap out eventually, especially you will keep shooting. Its possible you will be able to deagro and jump the gate. And td will cut range of dlps with scorch to maybe 5k. While range fluctuates, you wont get so close to rifter. And only thing you need to do is spamming approach and keep at range/orbit.
Herping yourDerp	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Doddy Edited by: Doddy on 15/12/2010 21:25:56 Originally by: Herping yourDerp you prolly lost the the incursus because it is a t2 ship, with 5 drones, and a better tank its a hard fight for any pilot I believe that would be the ishkur dude. is the hull the ishkur (and enyo) is based on. yea your right i mix up gaylente ships =( anyways delete gaylente, enslave all slavematar amarr own.
Headerman Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.12.15 22:05:00 - [29] Actually, with the new rocket fix, the Kestrel is now one of the toughest frigates to fly. Wouldn't mind trying a Breacher either... but god knows why it has only 2 lows and 2 mediums when all the other missile frigs get more
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.12.15 22:25:00 - [30] Originally by: Headerman Actually, with the new rocket fix, the Kestrel is now one of the toughest frigates to fly. Wouldn't mind trying a Breacher either... but god knows why it has only 2 lows and 2 mediums when all the other missile frigs get more I wouldn't worry about it. If it is anything like the other missile spamming frigates you wont have the CPU to use an extra slot anyway Super-Kestrel, aka. Navy Hookbill, is turning out to be quite the beast. Good range, excellent damage and lots of mids for nastiness = Evil in a can.

Dante Cowboy	Posted - 2010.12.15 23:51:00 - [31] Edited by: Dante Cowboy on 15/12/2010 23:52:09 Edited by: Dante Cowboy on 15/12/2010 23:51:34 Originally by: Tony SoXai Originally by: Dante Cowboy What's a good fit for an incursus to take on a rifter? This is pretty good vs rifters and other ships as well. [Incursus, Incursus] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II 1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Stasis Webifier II Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Hobgoblin II x1 Downgrade to smaller stuff as needed. With a rifter that's keeping you at range, an AB would do no good, right? So why not go with a MWD to maintain range? Of course, I'd prolly have to lose the repper and go with a 200mm plate
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2010.12.16 00:24:00 - [32] Originally by: Dante Cowboy Edited by: Dante Cowboy on 15/12/2010 23:52:09 Edited by: Dante Cowboy on 15/12/2010 23:51:34 Originally by: Tony SoXai Originally by: Dante Cowboy What's a good fit for an incursus to take on a rifter? This is pretty good vs rifters and other ships as well. [Incursus, Incursus] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II 1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Stasis Webifier II Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Hobgoblin II x1 Downgrade to smaller stuff as needed. With a rifter that's keeping you at range, an AB would do no good, right? So why not go with a MWD to maintain range? Of course, I'd prolly have to lose the repper and go with a 200mm plate That is specifically why there is no plate. With the rep instead of a plate you are just fast enough that a plated rifter is unable to kite you.
Professor Villinghopper	Posted - 2010.12.16 00:42:00 - [33] Edited by: Professor Villinghopper on 16/12/2010 00:45:57 [Merlin, MERLIN] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Medium Shield Extender II 1MN Afterburner II Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II 200mm AutoCannon II 200mm AutoCannon II Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Merlin does pretty well in the T1 Frigate range. Some the fits have 7k+ EHP omni, or higher to specific common shot types aka, Barrage, EMP, Scorch, Antimatter, Null. Has enough spare fitting to go MWD and keep top sized guns. Can downsize guns if you are worried about tracking, can swap rigs around for more damage if you want more damage, or extenders, very versatile frigate. Can swap DC for damage mod. I personally don't think its worth it because only two of your weapons get bonused per rig/mod, and you have no damage bonused weapons anyway. Play to the ship's strength and tank the hell out of it.
ACE81 Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.16 09:41:00 - [34] [Merlin, MSE] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Warp Scrambler II Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I This is a really nice fit as well pretty skill intensive to fit though. 100 dps 5000 ehp "I want a Secure can thats as big as my Jet can for solo mining :P 27k m3"
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.16 10:26:00 - [35] Originally by: ACE81 [Merlin, MSE] Or you can fit it properly with 3x cdfe and rails/pulses acs and make it pretty good ship...
Sessym Amarr	Posted - 2010.12.16 10:37:00 - [36] Originally by: ARES 003 I am just wondering which one is actually the superior and which one I should stick with. Whichever one is piloted best. And experiment on your own. Don't just take things as they are, try to see the reasons behind. Then you'll be a good frigate pilot. 0= - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 'So grab your guns.'
ACE81 Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:29:00 - [37] Edited by: ACE81 on 16/12/2010 11:30:46 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: ACE81 [Merlin, MSE] Or you can fit it properly with 3x cdfe and rails/pulses acs and make it pretty good ship... [Merlin, Merlin/MSE 3xcdfe] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Scrambler II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rage Rocket Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I you mean this you loose dps and your sig radius is 100m3 bigger then the setup I showed, yes this works but it makes you easy pry for cruisers and low tracking hard hitting small weapons like arti's. "I want a Secure can thats as big as my Jet can for solo mining :P 27k m3"
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:37:00 - [38] 1. you cant use blasters without range control - or you will be kited 2. you cant engage cruisers and up without nos - because you will be simply cap dead in 10secs 3. if for some reason cruiser+ you are attacking doesnt have neut and you manage to get to close orbit /unlikely without ab/, few meters more of sig doesnt matter 4. not that you run mwd all the time
ACE81 Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:46:00 - [39] Edited by: ACE81 on 16/12/2010 11:46:21 Its 100 more m3 not a few and booth are good set ups, I have used booth and I like the one I posted first better as it dose hit harder. "I want a Secure can thats as big as my Jet can for solo mining :P 27k m3"
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:04:00 - [40] Its 100m with mwd running and you wont be running your mwd once you get into scram range. Blasters make no sense on merlin, but if you like it, feel free. Using acs/rails/pulses is ofc better.

Professor Villinghopper	Posted - 2010.12.17 02:12:00 - [41] Fitting a Meta 4 shield extender(the damn thing is expensive) onto a t1 frig kinda defeats the purpose of flying a t1 frig dont' you think?
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2010.12.17 08:21:00 - [42] Another proponent of the Merlin here. However, I'm not a big fan of the CDFE rigs. I usually fit 2 EM and 1 TH rig instead. They're a lot cheaper, and since autocannon boats almost always use EMP and laser boats deal EM/TH, the extra resists help a more than the extra shield HP. To keep costs reasonable, use the meta-3 extender. If you have great fitting skills, use the T2. I always run with blasters - keep Null in the cargo hold, it's very useful. Eats up Rifter and Incursus pilots, can disengage from Punishers at will because of the web. You'll lose to a long point kiting Rifter sporting Barrage, but it will take a long time to kill you so you can at least make life difficult for him. : > - "When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed." - CCP Big Dumb Object
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui	Posted - 2010.12.17 19:32:00 - [43] On a related note, have any of you veterans out there ever tried using a kiting Rifter with arties instead of autos?
Lemming EVERADIO'FAN Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.18 00:33:00 - [44] Originally by: Tarunik Raqalth'Qui On a related note, have any of you veterans out there ever tried using a kiting Rifter with arties instead of autos? Save that sort of thinking for the Jaguar, which is specifically built for that line of fitting. The only two ships that I've seen effectively run Arty are the Jag (Fights at about 16km from target), and the thrasher (again, 16-20km). Both fits utilize MWD or overdrives on an AB jag. The fits are only really good against frigs though, you wont last long against anything bigger.
Dorian Tormak	Posted - 2010.12.18 00:46:00 - [45] Originally by: Tarunik Raqalth'Qui On a related note, have any of you veterans out there ever tried using a kiting Rifter with arties instead of autos? I'm no vet, but I've had success with this. [Rifter, Tormaks Arty Rift] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Small Armor Repairer II 1MN Afterburner II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S [empty high slot] Small Auxiliary Thrusters I Small Auxiliary Thrusters I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Orbit at 15 km, if they gain range, overheat afterburner and use your web to get back to 15. "don't use aux nanos with armor pumps!!11" yeah yeah but if you're gonna get caught, your gonna get caught with or without the extra 50 m/s, and the explosive resist helps a lot against rifters with barrage. The best kills I got with that are a Wolf (400 plate with 200 autos), a Thrasher (several of these but the rest were noobs), a Harpy (took a while). It has also beaten many punishers and incurses (lost to rail Incursus) and rifters, though some pr0s can still manage to gain range on you even with your speed and web. It also gave one Cynabal a hard time as it couldn't track me cause he was an idiot and I managed to get his shield about a quarter of the way down before his buddies warped in (say sorry). Beats Navy Slicers (6 so far but every one got away), firetails, almost every interceptor it comes across, tristans, you name it this thing has a good chance. I dare you to try it out, it's so fun.
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.18 13:45:00 - [46] The dlp2 punisher is a very fine ship and with good skills and good tactics can go up and win against any rifter except the shield extender rifter which has far too much tank to break fast enough - but aside from this particular rifter setup, a well skilled punisher will best a rifter. the grat thing about hte rifter and most minmatar ships is that thy are very easy to fit - while amarr and to a lesser extent gal ships are harder to fit without really top notch fitting skills. also, acs are imba right now, while lasers have scortch and thats it. . . so the rifter is the easy thing to go for, but for perfection, the punisher yealds better results with more skills. imo -----------
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.12.18 14:47:00 - [47] Originally by: Dorian Tormak [Rifter, Tormaks Arty Rift] The Slicers you claim to have killed with it must have been new to the class and no-tank-nanos. Cannot in my wildest dreams think how a close range fit would ever die to that. How do you suppose you'll survive more than five seconds against a MWD high DPS boat that lives through the two volleys max that hit? Arty Thrasher is easy enough to kill, can not imagine the lower dps/volley arty Rifter is more than a nuisance Originally by: Atius Tirawa The dlp2 punisher is a very fine ship and with good skills and good tactics can go up and win against any rifter except the shield extender ... You'll actually burn through a shield buffer Rifter much faster than a plate buffer. The biggest equalizer that a Rifter has when going against the Punisher is a neutralizer and/or a TD. Either will mess the Puni up, both will make it a forgone conclusion. Is there any other frigate, besides the Punisher, that can survive a Thrasher arty volley without resorting to plate/extender?
TaluxA	Posted - 2010.12.18 14:55:00 - [48] Merlin can get about 3500 EHP just with shield rigs and a DCU, not sure if that'd survive an arty shot. But it opens up some kinda cool fitting with the extra mid.
Yvella Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.18 18:53:00 - [49] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Tony SoXai TLDR rifter is overrated and Laser punisher is beastin. And then you will meet ab, web, td rifter and you wont land a single decent hit on him lol. web, scram and rails isn't even a fight. rifter will just die horribly and be lucky to get the incursus to armour
Dorian Tormak	Posted - 2010.12.18 20:10:00 - [50] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Dorian Tormak [Rifter, Tormaks Arty Rift] The Slicers you claim to have killed with it must have been new to the class and no-tank-nanos. Cannot in my wildest dreams think how a close range fit would ever die to that. Yeah about half of them were fit like that. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Dorian Tormak [Rifter, Tormaks Arty Rift] How do you suppose you'll survive more than five seconds against a MWD high DPS boat that lives through the two volleys max that hit? Arty Thrasher is easy enough to kill, can not imagine the lower dps/volley arty Rifter is more than a nuisance This can be a problem true enough, but not always, generally only when it's a particularly fast ship. MWD merlins (especially the duel mse versions) are too easy to keep at range, samge with duel mse jags (though the tanks are tough, somtimes even to the point of unbreakable). Ranis? Things like that you're not supposed to be able to fight anyway tbh and things like MWD scram web rifters, well, no **** can really win against everything, and my arty rifter dies to those the same way a plate/AB rifter dies to mine. Arty rifter isn't insanely awesome, but as for my fit I think I did a pretty good job.

ARES 003	Posted - 2010.12.18 20:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Tony SoXai Maybe it is because you haven't been playing very long and so your skills aren't great and you also don't know the right tactics with the ships you're using. I would say just stick with the Punisher. [Punisher, Pwnisher] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Nosferatu II [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] For rigs I usually put 3x Capacitor Control Circuits or 2x Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster and 1x Small Energy Burst Aerator. For ammo bring Multifrequency and Scorch. If whoever you're fighting orbits close, your Multi, if they decide to kite you at 5-8km, use Scorch. Train Thermodynamics so you can overheatd your afterburner and scram when they try to run away, get your gunnery and armor tanking skills up, kill other frigs and die to other frigs. Thanks for this fit. I've been using a cheaper version of it to fight people in Dodixie, and it has beaten Thorax, Stabber, Rifter and a Hurricane so far. The only problem is keeping up your speed, especially against something like Stabber, make a wrong move or your ship suddenly stops for some reason and suddenly your armor is going down. Also cap is very important, nosing your enemy throughout the fight is awesome and even though the stabber had a neut on me I was able to win the fight before my cap totally depleted. It loses some fights but wins some fights. As a newer player I rate that setup 5 stars.
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2010.12.18 20:49:00 - [52] Yeah, surprisingly, it has a much tougher time fighting other frigates than cruisers and such. For this reason I would tend to fit CCC rigs on it for better cap stability and management when going up against them. Not only do they keep you stable-ish in those scenarios but also allow you to have better cap when overloading the SAR against other frigs. Congrats on the kills BTW.
Veliria	Posted - 2010.12.18 23:25:00 - [53] [Merlin, Rawrr] Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Light Electron Blaster II, Null S Light Electron Blaster II, Null S Rocket Launcher II, Foxfire Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Foxfire Rage Rocket Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I 100 DPS, 8.6k EHP. If you swap the Mag stab for a DCU II, you get 10.4k EHP and 88 DPS. Might not do a lot of DPS, but it has a mean tank for a T1 frig. It even gets a little bit of passive recharge.


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