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ImmutableDark
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Posted - 2010.12.19 09:27:00 -
[1]
Possibly the least surprising thread out of all of the caldari ships are broken threads I'm going to make. I don't see the point in even justifying this thread at all because it is probably the most broken bs in the game at the moment and everyone knows it. Unsupported it has the performance of a tier 1 bs and supported it has the performance of a tier 2 bs. It needs something to web for it and it can't use web drones due to the lack of drone space and weakness of web drones and can't use a web due to the warp scrambler/disruptor using that slot. If you replace the cap booster in the setup I'm about to link with a web then you have another problem... you don't have a cap booster...
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/46451-Brawler-Rokh-Attempt-2.html#loadout
Ok the theory is that a tier 3 blaster fit bs should be able to beat a tier 2 blaster bs hands down no contest because one costs more than the other and one is supposed to be better than the other. Sooo for this example I'm going to use the megathron. I chose a mega from battleclinic that didn't have any faction mods (even though it's stupid not to fit a mega like this) just so nobody complains about how I set it up.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/39565-Megathron-Non-faction-fit-heavy-close-range-PVP-Mega.html#loadout
OK after testing you can get 900dps out of rokh if you play your cards right. Aye not bad for a caldari ship... never orbit in a caldari ship always approach at your optimal which in this case is 6k anything else you do is just too stupid to mention it cuts your dps amazingly. You should orbit ships of a higher class than what you're flying though i.e. orbit a cruiser in a frig etc.
OK after testing pretty much no matter how you cut it you're going to get the full 1074 dps out of the megathron. Woo so which ship is going to win? No-overheat? I prefer to do this the compare ehp way you can do it the compare dps way but it doesn't look as cool. So basically what we do is divide the attacking ships effective dps by the other ships effective dps and multiply it by the attacking ships ehp then we compare the unbuffed ehp of the defending ship with the modified ehp of the attacking ship to see who wins.
1073/900*120572 = 143,748 ehp vs 128884 (no overheat) vs (144,827 overheat).
So if you overheat both of your invulnerability fields you have a chance to beat a megathron by 1.1k ehp in an extremely ideal situation which tested doesn't happen 99% of the time do to the harsh realities of the viability of overheating invulnerability fields, and the fact that the megathron can dictate range due to it's web.
The fix is to add a web slot to the rokh and buff it's ehp to bring it up to the tier 3 properties most tier 3 bses have. This would also make it a viable mission ship. Currently it is not even a tier 2 bs everyone knows why.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.12.19 11:04:00 -
[2]
You can actually fit Neutrons to both the active Rokh as well as the passive Rokh.
Both have a good chance to shred a Mega, especially a blue pilled crystal Rokh.
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Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
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Posted - 2010.12.19 11:16:00 -
[3]
Needs moar web slot
***
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2
WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.12.19 11:17:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: ImmutableDark
Ok the theory is that a tier 3 blaster fit bs should be able to beat a tier 2 blaster bs hands down no contest because one costs more than the other and one is supposed to be better than the other.
Wrong.
Didn't read the rest.
___________
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Aunty Nora
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Posted - 2010.12.19 12:29:00 -
[5]
May i suggest putting pencils up your nose and banging your head down onto your desk.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.12.19 16:17:00 -
[6]
WTB Thread about how the Ibis is broken too.
Okay, Rokh isn't the best ship in the world, but it's best role is sniping. That it can do reasonably well. Reasonably well, not OMGWTFUBERPWN.
The big underlying problem of Caldari gunboats isn't the ships themselves, really. It's hybrids being subpar overall.
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"When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed." - CCP Big Dumb Object |
Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2010.12.19 17:09:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Andrea Griffin
Okay, Rokh isn't the best ship in the world, but it's best role is sniping. That it can do reasonably well.
I'm with you on that Immutable might need to take some Prozac, or Lithium or something... but I'm curious about where the Rokh snipes better than the Mega or Hyperion. Hell, the only reason I can see that it isn't outclassed as a sniper by the Domi is the raw lack of high slots.
The only place I think I can find is Spike L beyond about 220km. Past that point the Rokh is finally coming into it's own, but anything closer and any of the Gallente boats match or beat our poor Rokh.
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I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
Aiwha
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.19 17:31:00 -
[8]
Rohk is beautiful. RAILGUNS, are broken. (And blasters to a degree, but they're at least slightly workable)
Again, fleet ship. It works best when grouped. 250KM range, (terribad unbuffed railgun damage, but meh) Rokh is not broken, you are just bad. And railguns are bad. Buff railguns.
Gullible
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.12.19 17:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Luminos
Originally by: Andrea Griffin
Okay, Rokh isn't the best ship in the world, but it's best role is sniping. That it can do reasonably well.
I'm curious about where the Rokh snipes better than the Mega or Hyperion.
It really doesn't - but again, I did say reasonably well. Not the best.  If you want to snipe and don't have Gallente BS trained up, grab a Rokh.
There's nothing wrong with this, really. The Rifter is the best T1 frigate overall. The Caracal is the best T1 frigate murderer, better than destroyers because of the great range. Dramiel is the best faction frigate for solo work. Zealot is the best HAC sniper.
That doesn't mean the other ships are all bad, they're just not the best overall for a specific role. This is where a lot of people seem to fall down when discussing ship balance. It's okay to not be the best as long as you're still effective.
Personally, I love to fly Caldari for solo PvP. It is more difficult than Minmatar for example, but that just makes the victories sweeter. I'm also a hardcore Sentinel fan. 
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"When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed." - CCP Big Dumb Object |
Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2010.12.19 18:09:00 -
[10]
Or better still, take a Raven if you don't mind 20s Cruise flight times. 
But it would be kind of nice if the range bonus Caldari ships got actually *did* something. Rails and Cruises don't need the extra range, Blasters don't have any optimal to work with, and Torps... ok, I'll give you Torps benefitting from increased range. 
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I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2010.12.19 22:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ImmutableDark
I don't see the point in even justifying this thread at all
You said it. You could say the same for the other 3 to be honest.
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OpheliaCrotchmore
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Posted - 2010.12.20 02:14:00 -
[12]
I agree with ImmutableDark on this one.
The ROKH is a total piece of crap when compared to other battleships.
It needs an EHP buff.
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Spruillo
Gallente
Spruillo Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.20 02:19:00 -
[13]
Rokhs worked just fine last time i lost alt to losec smartbomb camp
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object
When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
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Master Zeuth
SniggWaffe
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.12.20 04:12:00 -
[14]
Your brain is broken.
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ImmutableDark
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Posted - 2010.12.20 06:24:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Andrea Griffin
WTB Thread about how the Ibis is broken too.
Okay, Rokh isn't the best ship in the world, but it's best role is sniping. That it can do reasonably well. Reasonably well, not OMGWTFUBERPWN.
The big underlying problem of Caldari gunboats isn't the ships themselves, really. It's hybrids being subpar overall.
It's like the second worst sniper... and it costs more than better snipers... why are we even discussing this crawp?
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Veliria
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Posted - 2010.12.20 10:21:00 -
[16]
It could use a few small buffs:
Improved sensor resolution, 75mm base is abysmal
It may be a sniper but 75mm base means it takes forever to lock something, especially when you're 250km away and transversal barely affects you, it helps a lot to be able to lock stuff faster.
Enough powergrid for a full rack of 425mms with an MWD added in assuming AWU IV
Where else are 425mm's gonna go? If the 'highest tier' SNIPER battleship can't fit a full rack where else are they going to be used?
More cap, it can't even provide enough cap to run 4 railguns (or railgun cap needs a reduction).
The cap requirements for eight 425mm railguns heavily outweighs the cap the Rokh can provide.
Meaning a mid has to be put into a cap booster, which kinda stacks with the fact you may need another mid for a sensor booster.
Move a mid to a low
4 lows are plenty for a shield tanking sniper or blaster boat.
Another mid means more tank or more freedom in using cap or sensor mods.
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Secondtryatthis
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Posted - 2010.12.20 10:27:00 -
[17]
Originally by: ImmutableDark
because one costs more than the other and one is supposed to be better than the other.
There is no 'better', that's a fallacy of the mind, there is only 'differently orientated'.
In your megathron vs rokh example, you're also missing that the rokh w/ just 2 invuls on has almost 100k ehp, thats *not* including an xl booster + cap injector, which gives it a tank of 700 dps for as long as it can run it. Protip : most plated mega's I've seen only have about 50-60k ehp.
As far it being 'bad' I'd say that's got a lot more to do with hybrids only being 'extremes'... you either have extreme range, or you're extremely close, you either do moderate damage from extreme range, or you do facemelting damage from close range. The rokh does need a little love, but all hybrids need the love a lot more.
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Marivauder
Did I just do that
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.20 10:46:00 -
[18]
thats like saying a huge majority of the battleships are broken because the dominix can beat them
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Killerjock
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Posted - 2010.12.20 13:42:00 -
[19]
The rokh makes a nice mining ship. Outmines a retriever.
Change of career?
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Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2010.12.20 14:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Veliria
Enough powergrid for a full rack of 425mms with an MWD added in assuming AWU IV
Where else are 425mm's gonna go? If the 'highest tier' SNIPER battleship can't fit a full rack where else are they going to be used?
Hmmm.... I think it already can.
*checks EFT*.
Yup, the Hyperion *can* fit a full rack of 425s with a MWD. It's so tight you have to go with Meta4 instead of T2 (and you're basically naked otherwise), but it can be done without a Reactor Control.
______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
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Veliria
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Posted - 2010.12.20 15:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Luminos
Originally by: Veliria
Enough powergrid for a full rack of 425mms with an MWD added in assuming AWU IV
Where else are 425mm's gonna go? If the 'highest tier' SNIPER battleship can't fit a full rack where else are they going to be used?
Hmmm.... I think it already can.
*checks EFT*.
Yup, the Hyperion *can* fit a full rack of 425s with a MWD. It's so tight you have to go with Meta4 instead of T2 (and you're basically naked otherwise), but it can be done without a Reactor Control.
Sniping generally requires the ability to use Spike, so T2 is probably mandatory.
Not that the Hyperion is going to be used for sniping over a Rokh any day soon.
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Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2010.12.20 15:23:00 -
[22]
Hey, nobody specified it had to be Tech 2. But fair enough, if you're going to snipe get a Megathron. At that kind of range who needs tanking bonuses? Especially an active tanking bonus in fleet warfare. 
Not that I disagree on the idea of a few hundred extra grid for the Rokh mind you, but more to point out that as it stands I hardly think the Rokh is the 'premier' sniper.
______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
Veliria
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Posted - 2010.12.20 15:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Luminos
Hey, nobody specified it had to be Tech 2. But fair enough, if you're going to snipe get a Megathron. At that kind of range who needs tanking bonuses? Especially an active tanking bonus in fleet warfare.
Not that I disagree on the idea of a few hundred extra grid for the Rokh mind you, but more to point out that as it stands I hardly think the Rokh is the 'premier' sniper.
The range bonus and optimal of railguns make it the 'premier' sniper when it comes to range and by extension also damage, since you can use higher damage ammo for the same ranges.
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ImmutableDark
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Posted - 2010.12.21 03:05:00 -
[24]
If you buff hybrids you buff gallente pvp... gallente pvp isn't really crying out for a buff like caldari pvp is. Yes hybrids have horrible damage projection and this definetly needs a buff somewhere but basically not before caldari pvp gets one. The gallente are definitely capable of kicking our ass in every engagement it just costs them more isk. I don't see why the gallente whinge so much about caldari fleet pvp being overpowered (drake) all the time. That's the way it's supposed to be the caldari blob up to pwn you but in solo combat they get killed. Now the drake is the one caldari ship that can solo but is it better than the other solo bc's? Yeah it probably is... but that's really debateable I'm pretty sure a harb/hurricane/cyclone/brutix are in the same leage as an 82k ehp 560 dps drake which btw is the only way to fit a solo drake. Hams do horrible dps vs an unwebbed target so many fail drake fits out there... the "I'm too good for tackle" drake that has a bigger signature than your average battleship about the same ehp and half the dps ... melts to every bs fit and the lowest priority target in any engagement. Ever been like "HEY THIS DRAKE HAS NO DPS┐!?" it doesn't have a web. Missiles don't work like that if you speed up in any direction they do less dps... yah pvp lesson learned today.
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Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2010.12.21 03:20:00 -
[25]
The ammo difference only starts to help the Rokh once you're out at Lead or farther. Before that, using a heavier ammo only gets you the same damage and more cap usage. And even then you don't see a real benefit until the Rokh is up to Tungsten. But that hardly matters, because as you said, fleet sniping should be based on Spike anyway.
Whether the extra 20-30km out to the lock range limit the Rokh can give you actually matters... I'll have to leave that up to large fleet FCs to say. I'm not seeing the use, but that might just be the inexperience talking.
______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
Diesel47
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Posted - 2010.12.21 05:52:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Diesel47 on 21/12/2010 05:57:01
The rokh while not a bad ship, BUT it does have some major flaws that make no sense.
Here are the two roles a rokh can play: Long range sniper and blaster boat.
Keep in mind that the rokh is suppose to be the premiere/best/strongest/uber sniper BS in the game.
Rokh needs a bigger drone bay.
- To fit some wardens, it IS suppose to be the best sniper BS in the game. Should be able to fit some sniping drones.
- When fitting for blasters, have atleast a set of hammerheads and hobs.
One low slot needs to be moved to mid.
Right now it is 8 - 6 - 5.
Should be changed to 8 - 7 - 4.
- The rokh will benefit greatly from an extra mid, four low slots are plenty for DCU and Magstabs. Mids can be used to fit a web in a blaster fit and can be used for some tank when using railguns (Mid slots taken up by sensor boosters, tracking computers, and microwarp etc).
Last but not least: More Grid!
- Premiere tier 3 sniper BS should be able to fit a full set of 425mm II's without fitting issues. That is just silly.
That is all. 
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ImmutableDark
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Posted - 2010.12.21 11:52:00 -
[27]
Edited by: ImmutableDark on 21/12/2010 11:53:48
Edited by: ImmutableDark on 21/12/2010 11:52:39
Originally by: Diesel47
Edited by: Diesel47 on 21/12/2010 05:57:01
The rokh while not a bad ship, BUT it does have some major flaws that make no sense.
Here are the two roles a rokh can play: Long range sniper and blaster boat.
Keep in mind that the rokh is suppose to be the premiere/best/strongest/uber sniper BS in the game.
Rokh needs a bigger drone bay.
- To fit some wardens, it IS suppose to be the best sniper BS in the game. Should be able to fit some sniping drones.
- When fitting for blasters, have atleast a set of hammerheads and hobs.
One low slot needs to be moved to mid.
Right now it is 8 - 6 - 5.
Should be changed to 8 - 7 - 4.
- The rokh will benefit greatly from an extra mid, four low slots are plenty for DCU and Magstabs. Mids can be used to fit a web in a blaster fit and can be used for some tank when using railguns (Mid slots taken up by sensor boosters, tracking computers, and microwarp etc).
Last but not least: More Grid!
- Premiere tier 3 sniper BS should be able to fit a full set of 425mm II's without fitting issues. That is just silly.
That is all.
You are stupid first of all, all I care about are final says on subjects and firstly there are a whole bunch of problems with what you've said compared to what I've said. Lets focus on the positive(experimental with me because I'm used to shooting people into the ground).
- The Rokh is supposed to be the premier sniper. (this is true) The caldari are supposed to be the best at fleet pvp they aren't and this leaves Caldari Pilots with nowhere to go pvp-wise which is kind of why they have the best economy in hi-sec because nobody gets to low/null-sec you know (this sucks). They even nerfed the Caldari out of capital ship combat..... what...? It's ****ing stupid is my point.
Things you're wrong about:
- The Rokh is supposed to be the anti-battleship t1 battleship i.e. you have to scale up to beat caldari ships. You know they have the signature radius of the next thing up and don't do anywhere near as much dps therefore die instantly kind of thing. (shield tanking target paints you) This was originally the EVE game desing but seriously the game designers after that sucked major balls and gave into pressure from derps on the forums and EVE turned into WoW. It's full of fail atm.
- Don't move the low slots to mid this nerfs the rokhs dps ... wtf are you doing... we need a web slot with the same dps to bring the rokh up to tier 2 but it's a tier 3 battleship. Nobody has compared the Rokh to a tier 3 battleship yet I think that's justification enough to assume that it's not tier 3 and make CCP give the Caldari a tier 3 battleship after 3 years of NOT.
More Grid...
The Rokh has plenty of grid CPU to go around sometimes I think too much... nothing needs that grade of fitting for that performance. A better idea would be to get some performance out of the massive fitting the rokh is capable of.... clearly this is not the case.
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Diesel47
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Posted - 2010.12.21 13:22:00 -
[28]
Originally by: ImmutableDark
Edited by: ImmutableDark on 21/12/2010 11:53:48
Edited by: ImmutableDark on 21/12/2010 11:52:39
You are stupid first of all, all I care about are final says on subjects and firstly there are a whole bunch of problems with what you've said compared to what I've said. Lets focus on the positive(experimental with me because I'm used to shooting people into the ground).
- The Rokh is supposed to be the premier sniper. (this is true) The caldari are supposed to be the best at fleet pvp they aren't and this leaves Caldari Pilots with nowhere to go pvp-wise which is kind of why they have the best economy in hi-sec because nobody gets to low/null-sec you know (this sucks). They even nerfed the Caldari out of capital ship combat..... what...? It's ****ing stupid is my point.
Things you're wrong about:
- The Rokh is supposed to be the anti-battleship t1 battleship i.e. you have to scale up to beat caldari ships. You know they have the signature radius of the next thing up and don't do anywhere near as much dps therefore die instantly kind of thing. (shield tanking target paints you) This was originally the EVE game desing but seriously the game designers after that sucked major balls and gave into pressure from derps on the forums and EVE turned into WoW. It's full of fail atm.
- Don't move the low slots to mid this nerfs the rokhs dps ... wtf are you doing... we need a web slot with the same dps to bring the rokh up to tier 2 but it's a tier 3 battleship. Nobody has compared the Rokh to a tier 3 battleship yet I think that's justification enough to assume that it's not tier 3 and make CCP give the Caldari a tier 3 battleship after 3 years of NOT.
More Grid...
The Rokh has plenty of grid CPU to go around sometimes I think too much... nothing needs that grade of fitting for that performance. A better idea would be to get some performance out of the massive fitting the rokh is capable of.... clearly this is not the case.
Alright look here kiddy, you don't go around calling people stupid if you are an idiot yourself.
Addendum: You are a moron.
CCP is not going to add another mid slot to the rokh because it will give the rokh +1 slots over all the other tier 3 battleships. If anything they will change a low to a mid. Be reasonable.
The rokh needs more grid, it cannot fit a full rack of 425mm II's without giving up a low for a reactor control II. (Something you'd know if you actually flown the ship.)
And the problem with the rokh's DPS sucking is a problem with railguns.. Not because it has (Or will have) not enough low slots. Hybrids need a fix, not the rokh.
And how am I wrong about signature radius again? I don't remember even mentioning that.
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ImmutableDark
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Posted - 2010.12.21 13:32:00 -
[29]
Edited by: ImmutableDark on 21/12/2010 13:34:55
Originally by: Diesel47
Originally by: ImmutableDark
Edited by: ImmutableDark on 21/12/2010 11:53:48
Edited by: ImmutableDark on 21/12/2010 11:52:39
You are stupid first of all, all I care about are final says on subjects and firstly there are a whole bunch of problems with what you've said compared to what I've said. Lets focus on the positive(experimental with me because I'm used to shooting people into the ground).
- The Rokh is supposed to be the premier sniper. (this is true) The caldari are supposed to be the best at fleet pvp they aren't and this leaves Caldari Pilots with nowhere to go pvp-wise which is kind of why they have the best economy in hi-sec because nobody gets to low/null-sec you know (this sucks). They even nerfed the Caldari out of capital ship combat..... what...? It's ****ing stupid is my point.
Things you're wrong about:
- The Rokh is supposed to be the anti-battleship t1 battleship i.e. you have to scale up to beat caldari ships. You know they have the signature radius of the next thing up and don't do anywhere near as much dps therefore die instantly kind of thing. (shield tanking target paints you) This was originally the EVE game desing but seriously the game designers after that sucked major balls and gave into pressure from derps on the forums and EVE turned into WoW. It's full of fail atm.
- Don't move the low slots to mid this nerfs the rokhs dps ... wtf are you doing... we need a web slot with the same dps to bring the rokh up to tier 2 but it's a tier 3 battleship. Nobody has compared the Rokh to a tier 3 battleship yet I think that's justification enough to assume that it's not tier 3 and make CCP give the Caldari a tier 3 battleship after 3 years of NOT.
More Grid...
The Rokh has plenty of grid CPU to go around sometimes I think too much... nothing needs that grade of fitting for that performance. A better idea would be to get some performance out of the massive fitting the rokh is capable of.... clearly this is not the case.
Alright look here kiddy, you don't go around calling people stupid if you are an idiot yourself.
Addendum: You are a moron.
CCP is not going to add another mid slot to the rokh because it will give the rokh +1 slots over all the other tier 3 battleships. If anything they will change a low to a mid. Be reasonable.
The rokh needs more grid, it cannot fit a full rack of 425mm II's without giving up a low for a reactor control II. (Something you'd know if you actually flown the ship.)
And the problem with the rokh's DPS sucking is a problem with railguns.. Not because it has (Or will have) not enough low slots. Hybrids need a fix, not the rokh.
And how am I wrong about signature radius again? I don't remember even mentioning that.
The railgun fix is a fricken gallente projecting through idiots thing... no offense you need your brain checked. The rokh is clearly not a tier 3 ship FIX IT is my simple message if you have a problem with that then pick a fight with me otherwise shut the f up. The midslot suggested fix was to bring it up to tier 2 level... that's how broken the ship is.
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Diesel47
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Posted - 2010.12.21 13:43:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Diesel47 on 21/12/2010 13:43:56
Originally by: ImmutableDark
The railgun fix is a fricken gallente projecting through idiots thing... no offense you need your brain checked. The rokh is clearly not a tier 3 ship FIX IT is my simple message if you have a problem with that then pick a fight with me otherwise shut the f up. The midslot suggested fix was to bring it up to tier 2 level... that's how broken the ship is.
All Tier 3 BS are balanced in amount of slots. Rokh isn't going to get an extra one, sorry stop being an idiot.
Powergrid needs to be addressed, drone bay needs to be addressed, and too many low slots needs to be addressed. DPS problem is because of the railguns.
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