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[Proposal] Supercarrier Nerf

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Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.05.06 12:48:00 - [331] Originally by: grumpyguts1 Why nerf it?? why not give the smaller capitals a chance, bring in a Capital neut. This way SC pilots will have to plan a little better, and a small fleet of carriers who plan well will have a fighting chance, something like setting a curse on a BS except BIGGER. Except that a supercarrier's primary weapon system doesn't require cap, and in the case of the Nyx and Aeon their EHP buffer doesn't necessarily require it either. All you do with this proposal is bump the neuting caps way up the target priority list from 'free easy killmail' to 'mild irritant' while doing little to rebalance fleet combat and further cementing 'Capitals Online' by obsoleting one of the few semi-useful roles smaller hulls have remaining against caps. -----------------
guthin aspheirocy Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.05.06 14:53:00 - [332] theres a simple way to figure out that super carriers need to be nerfed. Erebus potential EHP: 36 mill, max dps: 12k (excluding dd) Nyx potential EHP: 36 mill , max DPS: 12.5k hmmmmmmm
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.05.07 07:54:00 - [333] There's an excellent post on another EVE forum (its the one that begins with K and ends with ugutsumen) that I'm just going to quote here: Originally by: Sansa Comfrey Before supercap prolification, you had cap fleets out there of various sizes, but you drop a strong enough subcap fleet on them and they would be in serious trouble. A spidertanking carrier fleet, if big enough, might be able to render itself somewhat immune to a subcap fleet, but not to a dread fleet, and a dread fleet could not protect itself from subcaps and needed subcap (or carrier) support itself. The key here is, for dreads and carriers to operate with any efficiency, they needed, and were vulnerable to, subcap support, and anyone from 1m skillpoints up could contribute to a subcap fleet and have fun. Massed supercaps are not. Not to anything but another massed supercap fleet. People are down on the NC for not matching the DRF's supercap fleet, but it really comes down to - the NC doesn't feel its supercap fleet is strong enough (or logging in enough) to risk a major confrontation with the DRF's because if they lose it, they will have nothing left that can stop them because the subcap "blob" doesn't work like it does on non-massed supercaps or regular caps. DC did the same thing to IT, backed by the NC's supercap fleet; IT (more accurately, the individual corps and pets, not the coalition's command) didn't commit their supers because in all likelihood they would lose the fight and not have them anymore. Every major fight is going to work this way for the foreseeable future. -----------------
David Hassan	Posted - 2011.05.09 00:22:00 - [334] Edited by: David Hassan on 09/05/2011 00:23:01 I agree with the OP, also here is one of my ideas from another thread regarding Super Capitals. Currently, Super Capital ships can be used for 'risk free' ganks. It is not uncommon for a supercarrier to log off with aggro and dissappear before anything but the largest of fleets can dispatch it. My proposal is this: Super Capital ships should never disappear from space. A ship that large should require the infrastructure of an empire to support it. Add a new POS module for 'docking' Supercapitals at a POS. This will keep them safe from bumping. This will force players to have said infrastructure to actually support these behemoths. It might also slow super capital proliferation, as people will actually have to support them logistically with fuel for the POS. This is a rough idea, but I think it has merit.
Pharon Reichter Destructive Influence Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.06.03 09:39:00 - [335] Edited by: Pharon Reichter on 03/06/2011 09:42:05 Originally by: Scatim Helicon There's an excellent post on another EVE forum (its the one that begins with K and ends with ugutsumen) that I'm just going to quote here: Originally by: Sansa Comfrey Before supercap prolification, you had cap fleets out there of various sizes, but you drop a strong enough subcap fleet on them and they would be in serious trouble. A spidertanking carrier fleet, if big enough, might be able to render itself somewhat immune to a subcap fleet, but not to a dread fleet, and a dread fleet could not protect itself from subcaps and needed subcap (or carrier) support itself. The key here is, for dreads and carriers to operate with any efficiency, they needed, and were vulnerable to, subcap support, and anyone from 1m skillpoints up could contribute to a subcap fleet and have fun. Massed supercaps are not. Not to anything but another massed supercap fleet. People are down on the NC for not matching the DRF's supercap fleet, but it really comes down to - the NC doesn't feel its supercap fleet is strong enough (or logging in enough) to risk a major confrontation with the DRF's because if they lose it, they will have nothing left that can stop them because the subcap "blob" doesn't work like it does on non-massed supercaps or regular caps. DC did the same thing to IT, backed by the NC's supercap fleet; IT (more accurately, the individual corps and pets, not the coalition's command) didn't commit their supers because in all likelihood they would lose the fight and not have them anymore. Every major fight is going to work this way for the foreseeable future. So basically you are whining because you cant kill 300 supercaps with 1000 characters with 1 milion sp each ? MMOS have allways been like that those who aquire enough wealth and xp are marching over the noobs. Supercaps require a vast ammount of wealth and xp to have, and to hold them, and an equal ammunt of ingame experience -> just look al all yours and NC noobs that lost them in sanctums, pos jb's and other embarrassing places. What you ignore in the whole NC war is that the anti-nc fleets didnt come only with supercaps , their subcap fleets ( our fleets ) already wiped the floor with yours in most battle before bringing out the supers. in fact there was never ever any super only battle from DRF and friends, we just had well balanced fleets, while you didnt and mow you cry. You didnt even have the guts of jumping into our fleets supercap blobbed or not. 500 including supercaps vs 900 subcaps + whatever supercaps you caould have gathered .... and you didnt even try. It's not supers broken , it's your alliances. as far as dropping lonly supers in low-sec just take a look at rooks & kings tactics , there's a lot you can learn from them.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.06.03 10:42:00 - [336] Originally by: Pharon Reichter ...MMOS have allways been like that those who aquire enough wealth and xp are marching over the noobs.... The day Eve can be compared directly with the mass-consumer products out there is the day I (and most vets I reckon) bugger off Problem with supers is that they require abnormally high numbers or supers to counter which is contrary to all other areas of Eve .. there is no trick or gimmick that allows you to bamboozle a 50+ SC swarm. We had all the theory-crafting in the pre-SC buff discussions, think it took 10+:1 (dreads:SCs) to kill the damn things, and that is before factoring in RR. Remove eWar immunity .. solves practically all issues (solo-logistics, lowsec ganks, swarm RR etc.) with SCs without making them POS ornaments.
Pharon Reichter Destructive Influence Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.06.03 11:39:00 - [337] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Pharon Reichter ...MMOS have allways been like that those who aquire enough wealth and xp are marching over the noobs.... The day Eve can be compared directly with the mass-consumer products out there is the day I (and most vets I reckon) bugger off Problem with supers is that they require abnormally high numbers or supers to counter which is contrary to all other areas of Eve .. there is no trick or gimmick that allows you to bamboozle a 50+ SC swarm. We had all the theory-crafting in the pre-SC buff discussions, think it took 10+:1 (dreads:SCs) to kill the damn things, and that is before factoring in RR. Remove eWar immunity .. solves practically all issues (solo-logistics, lowsec ganks, swarm RR etc.) with SCs without making them POS ornaments. Wrong 2 times. Eve has more to do with other mmo's than you would like to admit. there are some differences but as a concept it's still a MMO. 50 sc's w/o support will die from an organised fleet of 500 bs'es And if you calculate means that they (sc'es) arent cost effective to use. Ofc noone uses 50 sc's w.o support that's why they seem invincible. Buy why do you think noone uses 50 sc's w/o support ? btw you have never used a sc in lag have you ? just pulling out fighters might take anywahere from 10 to 20 minutes and that in low lag. So no sc's arent very good against bs'es.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.06.03 12:07:00 - [338] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 03/06/2011 12:07:29 Originally by: Pharon Reichter ...Eve has more to do with other mmo's than you would like to admit. there are some differences but as a concept it's still a MMO... Sure it is an MMO, but you are comparing it directly to the genre as a whole, a genre which has all but expunged non-playground themes. - Name the mass market MMO where a relative noob has a snowballs chance in hell of besting an oldtimer through skill/decisions. - Name the mass market MMO where a majority of items are made solely by participants. - Name the mass market MMO where an 'early' weapon is not automatically obsoleted by all subsequent weapons (in Eve terms: ship classes). - Etc. Etc. Ad Nauseum. And yes of course you can defeat SC's by blobbing the snot out of them, big whoop. Does that mean that should be the yardstick of balancing though? If so all of Eve should be revamped to fit this new paradigm, I am sure Eve will be much better off with just 2-3 large entities vying for control .. people who don't want that can just go back to WoW or whatever childish game they came from, right?
Riley Moore Sentinum Research	Posted - 2011.06.03 13:22:00 - [339] Originally by: Pharon Reichter So basically you are whining because you cant kill 300 supercaps with 1000 characters with 1 milion sp each ? MMOS have allways been like that those who aquire enough wealth and xp are marching over the noobs. Supercaps require a vast ammount of wealth and xp to have, and to hold them, and an equal ammunt of ingame experience -> just look al all yours and NC noobs that lost them in sanctums, pos jb's and other embarrassing places. What you ignore in the whole NC war is that the anti-nc fleets didnt come only with supercaps , their subcap fleets ( our fleets ) already wiped the floor with yours in most battle before bringing out the supers. in fact there was never ever any super only battle from DRF and friends, we just had well balanced fleets, while you didnt and mow you cry. You didnt even have the guts of jumping into our fleets supercap blobbed or not. 500 including supercaps vs 900 subcaps + whatever supercaps you caould have gathered .... and you didnt even try. It's not supers broken , it's your alliances. as far as dropping lonly supers in low-sec just take a look at rooks & kings tactics , there's a lot you can learn from them. So it's perfectly acceptable to say, release a ship that costs 1 trillion isk, can one shot any ship every 60 seconds and has 5 billion EHP, so it needs 1000 supers to kill it or 50.000 sub caps to kill it? I mean, If I manage to buy it, I sure as hell deserve to be invincible right? And what if an alliance manages to buy 100 of them? It's bad game design to have the only counter to a ship type being the same shyp type in bigger nrs. You can not counter a 300 man supercap fleet because the servers do not allow it. --- Sentinum Research Store
Cyrus Doul E0 Corp	Posted - 2011.06.03 17:27:00 - [340] Originally by: guthin aspheirocy theres a simple way to figure out that super carriers need to be nerfed. Erebus potential EHP: 36 mill, max dps: 12k (excluding dd) Nyx potential EHP: 36 mill , max DPS: 12.5k hmmmmmmm Even with the DD its only a 5000 DPS push with the 10 minute timer. And that is assuming that you are shooting at a target that can take the 3 mil damage everytime, DD is only weapon in the game that deals overkill damage really, Or at least measurable overkill. (>1000 wasted damage points)

Pharon Reichter Destructive Influence Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.06.03 17:42:00 - [341] you wholly missed one of the points. wich is supers arent invincible. shure blobs of them are hard to fight but that is tue and was true for any ship out there. they are currently on top of food chain so yes it's hard to fight a blob of them but not harder than fighting a blob of anything that would be any blob of whatever is there on top. one of the things that attract people in this games atr the massive fights. take any of the points you mentioned in previous posts and you will find it in a certain way implemented in other mmos. except the massive fights. on this no other comes any colser. this is a predsposition to blob. on the other side one thing that trully is common to all mmos is that an older player has advantage to newer players. supers are hard to come by and that's what it's all about. if they would be that easy everyone would get one and end of storry. but for the ammount of effort to get one they Are not OP everyone whines about the fact that if some alliances would not have had the ammount of supers they would not won the battles they did. fact is if we nerf the supers those alloances would have still won. noone denies that. and if they do the killboards show the storry. but making supers useless once again wont fix anything. tl;dr blobs of enough anything will allways win small ammounth of supers ( ex: lowsec) learn to deal with them : look at rooks & kings
Wyatt 3arp	Posted - 2011.06.03 19:00:00 - [342] Edited by: Wyatt 3arp on 03/06/2011 19:02:32 No. -One fitted SC costs 8000% the price of one fitted battleship. -It takes about 2 years to get a char ready to use one properly, an then you have to keep one acc. acting as an exclusive alt or holding alt. -There is no insurance. -Cynojammers can be protected with supers, caps and subcaps against subcaps alone. So doesnt matters how many supers one enemy can gather. RL skills and tactics are still the big factor. The only thing that should be adjusted IMO is the logofsky/self-destruct mechanics (when agressed OFC). Make the timers related to the mass of the ships, from frigs to titans. Any other adjustment should be done with carriers and dreads. They should be more relevant in a supercap fight.
Azver Deroven Pitch Black. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2011.06.03 19:37:00 - [343] I have a dream, dream where carriers and sc's send their fighters away from themselves while they sit and do what carriers do, lead their fighters from wherever they are hiding. A dream, where this is countered by convops working together to pinpoint their location, and by SB's that bomb them with something that brings their bombers in frontline to grinding halt, or simply denies reloading from them. I know its nonsense but thats how I'd like to see them done. But man's got a right to dream, amirite? Random giberish beside, I do think there's a problem, and this might be the fix, or this might be too much or not enough. But doing something is better than not doing anything, and we've tried that before. ---------------------------------------------------- My views do not represent those of my alliance, corporation or myself. Trully, sometimes I manage to confuse even myself.
Heavenly Blues	Posted - 2011.06.08 19:44:00 - [344] I agree that supercaps in general need some serious tweaking. I agree with the idea that they should not be able to disappear with a log off. For the most powerful fleet weapons in eve to disappear with a log off is game breaking. You should have to find safe harbor and defend that harbor if you want to keep your super / doomsday weapons in service.
Lazarus Vex	Posted - 2011.06.08 20:50:00 - [345] I think that when the only counter to x is "bring more of x" then it needs to be re-examined. It leads not only to stale gameplay but also a much less tactical environment.
lwxsky oli Minmatar FACTS on EVE	Posted - 2011.06.09 01:36:00 - [346] nerf ehp so 100 sieged dreads can one shot alpha kill a super carrier.
Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.09 01:56:00 - [347] CCP plan to nerf them anyway, so why not?
Alias 6322A	Posted - 2011.06.09 18:07:00 - [348] Question: I can see how these nerfs would be useful and they make sense...but... ...you're also trying to bring dreads back from being obsolete. Explain how these nerfs help out dreads? The only change I see that helps some is the reduction in FB dps, meaning a dread might compete. If these changes aren't going to improve dreads any, then we need to also be looking at ways to buff/change dreads such that they aren't obsolete anymore. The main problem I see with Supers is their only counter is more supers...which is highly unusual in any game. I like the ideas for reduction of drone capacity/ehp so that supers could be made 'toothless' with a well-built enemy fleet of subcaps.
Dr Screamm	Posted - 2011.06.09 18:45:00 - [349] I DO NOT SUPPORT this nerf at all...... I am a capital AND supercarrier pilot. As many other pilots here have stated, supercapitals cost a HUGE amount of isks, BILLIONS not forgetting that the fit often costs even more than the ship itself. As was said by CCP at FANFEST 2011 SUPERcarriers are meant to be SUPER, and the financial investment and time that many players have dedicated in-game in order to own and fly a supercarrier MUST be protected by giving us the ability to indeed field those powerful ships, and to be able to leave the field as well. The vast majority of those who want this nerf are pilots who just hate supers simply because they either cannot afford them OR they just ruin their killing game. Supers are destroyed every day in EVE, they can still be obliterated, why should a simple fleet of tiny ships that cost very small sums of isks be able to take down a ship worth BILLIONS!!!!! I am TOTALLY against it!!!!
Sarina Rhoda	Posted - 2011.06.09 20:55:00 - [350] Edited by: Sarina Rhoda on 09/06/2011 20:59:32 Originally by: Dr Screamm I DO NOT SUPPORT this nerf at all...... I am a capital AND supercarrier pilot. As many other pilots here have stated, supercapitals cost a HUGE amount of isks, BILLIONS not forgetting that the fit often costs even more than the ship itself. As was said by CCP at FANFEST 2011 SUPERcarriers are meant to be SUPER, and the financial investment and time that many players have dedicated in-game in order to own and fly a supercarrier MUST be protected by giving us the ability to indeed field those powerful ships, and to be able to leave the field as well. The vast majority of those who want this nerf are pilots who just hate supers simply because they either cannot afford them OR they just ruin their killing game. Supers are destroyed every day in EVE, they can still be obliterated, why should a simple fleet of tiny ships that cost very small sums of isks be able to take down a ship worth BILLIONS!!!!! I am TOTALLY against it!!!! Pretty confident this is a troll but o well. Lets imagine a ship that costs 1trillian. It is indestructible. can insta pop anything. has 0 signature radius. and goes 30kms with perfect agility. But its fine cos it costs 1 trillion so why should anything be able to kill it yer? To create balance cost effectiveness should always go down as price increases otherwise you just have the standard tier issues where everything beneath the top tier is useless. IMO to balance super caps you need a combination of a lot of the ideas already posted in this thread. I would say 5 drone limit but +3 per DCU (make DCU passive). separate drone bay for Fighters/FBs and regular drones. Slaves no longer work in combination with Supercaps This makes them pick between dps and survivability mods. Means they can't release endless swarms of drones. Slightly reduces the obscene EHP. Balances the armour supers more with the shield supers

Icantspellwell	Posted - 2011.06.10 00:51:00 - [351] So funny that this topic is mostly supported by nc and goons who loved to throw supercapitals around without a care in the world but are now losing or are going to lose their space. I didn't see any of you complaining when you dropped supers religiously for a week on bs gangs. So on to some common sense: 1 super costs the same price as approximately 100 abaddons at 200 mil each. That super would die alone. Why shouldn't it take numbers to match in the investment for the supercapital? Quit crying because 10 supers costing 180 bil not including the subcap fleet they are usually with forced your fleet to run away. "So it's perfectly acceptable to say, release a ship that costs 1 trillion isk, can one shot any ship every 60 seconds and has 5 billion EHP, so it needs 1000 supers to kill it or 50.000 sub caps to kill it?" Let's do some quick math real quick. 1000x 18 bil hmm k hang on i got dis (carry the 4 here) ah yes **** 18 trillion isk super capital fleet. Learn math 1 trillion isk in 18 bil supercapitals is 55. well under what has been seen by many fleets. Or 20 titans at 50 bil whereas you are giving it the equivalent of 138 titans in ehp. So yes if someone got 18 trillion isk for a ship that every 60 seconds could pop a mom then thats great. totally unrealistic and never going to happen but great.
Alias 6322A	Posted - 2011.06.11 00:41:00 - [352] Quote: I DO NOT SUPPORT this nerf at all...... I am a capital AND supercarrier pilot. As many other pilots here have stated, supercapitals cost a HUGE amount of isks, BILLIONS not forgetting that the fit often costs even more than the ship itself. As was said by CCP at FANFEST 2011 SUPERcarriers are meant to be SUPER, and the financial investment and time that many players have dedicated in-game in order to own and fly a supercarrier MUST be protected by giving us the ability to indeed field those powerful ships, and to be able to leave the field as well. The vast majority of those who want this nerf are pilots who just hate supers simply because they either cannot afford them OR they just ruin their killing game. Supers are destroyed every day in EVE, they can still be obliterated, why should a simple fleet of tiny ships that cost very small sums of isks be able to take down a ship worth BILLIONS!!!!! I am TOTALLY against it!!!! Maybe it's just me...but why did you support the topic then?
Jessica Autumn	Posted - 2011.06.12 03:40:00 - [353] This sounds like a " Super's arn't Fair " post by people who either, don't want to fly them so they support any nerf to them, have died to them multiple times, or some other lame reason, theres a reason Supers are considered to be the Most powerful and destructive ships in the game....cause they are? Thats why they cost 18-60 Billion isk, but now these guys want it to be " Fair " i wanna kill a Nyx with my Abaddon HERP DERP!...plz so If you don't want to deal with super's go to empire and Care bear. BTW....if you want to be honest a single NPC empire state probably have more Super's than the entire DRF and its freinds combined, If you can afford to fly it then fly it, and dont Ruin other players experience.
Zxmagus GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.06.12 05:55:00 - [354] It really is getting to the point of another titan manifesto is coming soon. It's very simple to alot of people that supers being dropped with zero support obliterating anything is game breaking to the point of absurdity. Cap gameplay is very boring ,allways has been in eve it's do you have more if check yes you win and the long awaited super cap critical mass has been reached that was warned oh so long ago.
Rip Minner Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries	Posted - 2011.06.12 08:06:00 - [355] Originally by: Zxmagus It really is getting to the point of another titan manifesto is coming soon. It's very simple to alot of people that supers being dropped with zero support obliterating anything is game breaking to the point of absurdity. Cap gameplay is very boring ,allways has been in eve it's do you have more if check yes you win and the long awaited super cap critical mass has been reached that was warned oh so long ago. So true but at least they have to push more buttons then the old DD Titans did. :) Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.
Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.12 18:17:00 - [356] Originally by: Jessica Autumn This sounds like a " Super's arn't Fair " post by people who either, don't want to fly them so they support any nerf to them, have died to them multiple times, or some other lame reason, theres a reason Supers are considered to be the Most powerful and destructive ships in the game....cause they are? Thats why they cost 18-60 Billion isk, but now these guys want it to be " Fair " i wanna kill a Nyx with my Abaddon HERP DERP!...plz so If you don't want to deal with super's go to empire and Care bear. BTW....if you want to be honest a single NPC empire state probably have more Super's than the entire DRF and its freinds combined, If you can afford to fly it then fly it, and dont Ruin other players experience. CCP have already agreed that Supercarriers need a nerf though. The only interesting debate is about how they're going to do it.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.06.20 06:22:00 - [357] Yet another nerf supercarriers suggestion on a random blog. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.06.20 06:27:00 - [358] Originally by: Alias 6322A Maybe it's just me...but why did you support the topic then? You can support the discussion without necessarily being in support of the proposal. Film at 11. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
xttz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.06.20 09:45:00 - [359] Originally by: Zxmagus It really is getting to the point of another titan manifesto is coming soon. yo
Needa3 Minmatar BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.06.20 19:19:00 - [360] goonswarm tears are fun cry some more now that BFF is failing all of the sudden the things are overpowerd all eggs in the "blob out the system" basket got you screwed ... which is good about time the WoW players got back to WoW



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