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Waaaaaagggh	Posted - 2010.12.20 03:10:00 - [1] Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 20/12/2010 03:10:56 Why are people saying eve is dying? Last i checked the subscriber base is increasing...
Zora'e	Posted - 2010.12.20 03:11:00 - [2] Originally by: Waaaaaagggh sorry to sound lke a noob but i'm kinda new to the eve community. why are people saying eve is dying? Last i checked the subscriber base is increasing... Eve has been dieing since the day the servers started up. Get used to hearing it. - - - - - - - - - -
Waaaaaagggh	Posted - 2010.12.20 03:37:00 - [3] so whenever the servers have issues, eve is dying. hmmm
Zora'e	Posted - 2010.12.20 03:38:00 - [4] Originally by: Waaaaaagggh so whenever the servers have issues, eve is dying. hmmm Or whenever someone gets mad about something like a ship loss because they were not paying atention, or claimed lag or any number of other similar things. - - - - - - - - - -
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2010.12.20 03:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Waaaaaagggh Why are people saying eve is dying? Last i checked the subscriber base is increasing... Because they can and something irritated them. No restrictions on making threads after all. Why do people biatch about the weather/traffic/relation/etc etc.
Zeuth Proxy Caldari Nomadic Asylum	Posted - 2010.12.20 03:57:00 - [6] Its the same as saying "Everyone is dying since the day they where born". Its the good old pessimistic outlook on things in which everything will come to a end at some point. It all depends on the actions that are taken to either speed the process up or slow it down.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.20 04:10:00 - [7] Something bad happens so to feel better I need a six page Rant about how X is responsible instead of me, followed by false threats of Rage Quiting while trying to encourage otheres to do the same. Or something along those lines. -- Originally by: NoNah I'm afraid you can't really expect a decent answer as the new generation of posters arrived. Alara and her merry crew just isn't that interested in anything constructive.
Vertisce Soritenshi O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.20 05:09:00 - [8] Originally by: Waaaaaagggh Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 20/12/2010 03:10:56 Why are people saying eve is dying? Last i checked the subscriber base is increasing... For the same reason WoW is dying. Sig.Learning skills vote.
Kobushi	Posted - 2010.12.20 07:08:00 - [9] Same reason EVERYTHING is dying and that include time, matter, energy and everythign else...Entropy will overcome everything in the end.
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2010.12.20 07:09:00 - [10] Everyone abandon ship! Eve is dying! First contract all your stuff to me so I can look after it during the final dying moments!

Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact	Posted - 2010.12.20 07:51:00 - [11] By the emperor, as if the trolls were not enough, now we must face orcs as well. Originally by: Samuel Langhorne Clemens I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.20 08:06:00 - [12] Some people say EVE is dying because they have the perception that only the number of accounts, not the number of players increases. Other people think CCP tries to market the game too much to a very broad audience (through various gameplay changes) at which it will fail (like pretty much any other MMORPG trying to compete with WoW) while driving away the "hardcore" audience that make up the niche EVE could exist in for the last 6 years. But most people just use this statement as a meme or in a purely personal fashion (EVE is becoming uninteresting to me).
Fart Taco	Posted - 2010.12.20 08:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Kobushi Same reason EVERYTHING is dying and that include time, matter, energy and everythign else...Entropy will overcome everything in the end. mother****ing this! we will all meet the great void! there is nothing we can do. we will all cease to exist one day.
Eastman Color	Posted - 2010.12.20 10:49:00 - [14] Originally by: Waaaaaagggh so whenever the servers have issues, eve is dying. hmmm Different things for different people tbh:- Spirit of the game is dying as percieved by those crying, eve's pvp and we keep getting more and more pve content. Aspects of the game keep getting simplerfied. The "good old days of expic conflicts" are long gone. "epic dramas" don't seem so epic anymore "some pirate blowded up my ibis" Just because subscription goes up doesn't mean a game's getting "better" to those that first started playing it\the dedicated core. I mean... Halo is the most average FPS out there and loads of people play it, doesn't make it good.
Niccolado Starwalker Gallente Shadow Templars	Posted - 2010.12.20 10:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Waaaaaagggh Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 20/12/2010 03:10:56 Why are people saying eve is dying? Last i checked the subscriber base is increasing... EVE isnt dieing???? It was when I joined in 2005! And still did a year later in 2006! And in 2007 it was certainly dieing, not to mention back in 2008! And ofcource dont forget 2009 and 2010! So its only proper that it will continue this trend in 2011, no??? Seriously? The day someone on the forums tell me that EVE is flourishing and growing; that day I will start to worry! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL.
Nicholas Barker Diabolus Ex Machina The Amazing Onjoi and his Educated Rodents	Posted - 2010.12.20 10:50:00 - [16] It's kinda like a fat man eating more food. ------ 0800-LAG-A-NODE
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.12.20 10:59:00 - [17] The game is always changing. Those who don't like the changes at all, will go to great lengths at rationalizing the fact as game decay. IE some famous and even great players, corps and even web sites have closed down since they did not like EvE going mainstream, losing its "goden age rough game aura" and basically going to be another easy mode MMO driven by RMT. Is EvE dying? No! But once more reference players (with my same tastes) of a certain game era will keep quitting, then I'll understand the time has come for me as well. It'll mean some factors they liked, are just not here any more. IE if I'll keep seeing more botting, more blob centric playing, more "easy mode, just PAY" (be it RMT or some stupid new PLEX-alike garbage), then the game will have died for me, and it'll be time to move on. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Shawshanke	Posted - 2010.12.20 11:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Waaaaaagggh Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 20/12/2010 03:10:56 Why are people saying eve is dying? Last i checked the subscriber base is increasing... EVE is dying due to a lack of pets, we gets no cats, no demons, no bears or birds.... just little green squares
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2010.12.20 11:19:00 - [19] Originally by: Eastman Color ...loads of people play it, doesn't make it good. Not to nitpick but yes actually it is good. To all those extra players who play it. If it was not good for them they would not play it. Just because something is not good for you personally does not automatically make it bad for the many others who join or continue playing.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.12.20 11:24:00 - [20] EVE is dying threads have been posted since the game started and we get regular "why EVE will die out soon/is so small/fail/niche/horribad, if it doesn't cater to 'insert your personal taste here' immediately." -threads. After reading and seeing them being proven wrong again and again for years you reach a point where when another one pops up all you can be bothered to do is to post "EVE is dying!" and just leave it at that.

Aineko Macx	Posted - 2010.12.20 12:14:00 - [21] Because - CCP has demonstrated their incompetence innumerable times on multiple levels - CCP got greedy, putting marketable features over fixing the game - CCP still thinks Second Life is the future and will try to bring the dress-up-crowd into the game - CCP got out of touch with the player base and some of its sections have developed a "lol customers" attitude Funny how CCP is part of all those problems... ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation.
Eastman Color	Posted - 2010.12.20 13:11:00 - [22] Originally by: Lillith Starfire Not to nitpick That's exactly what you're doing Originally by: Lillith Starfire but yes actually it is good. To all those extra players who play it. If it was not good for them they would not play it. Theoretically, you're right but, and here's the but that makes things complicated, If we're talking about halo, How many of those people that think halo is superawesome have play other fps games? How many of them keep playing Halo "because they can pwn in it" rather than others they may not be as good at? How many halo fans got the game with their xbox and didn't bother paying out ú30 a pop for other games? How many other companies have the ability to push a game as much as the larger boys like MS\EA? If we're talking about eve then, How many are on trial accounts? How many of those trial account convert to subscribers per month? How many new trial accounts are created each month? How many accounts of x/y/z months/years are cancelled each month? How many people log in and just chat to people with doing other stuff? How many people log in just to set skills going? These are all statistics I'd be surprised to see in the quarterly econimic review. Originally by: Lillith Starfire Just because something is not good for you personally does not automatically make it bad for the many others who join or continue playing. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good. Look at primark, it's **, it's hideous to visit, they treat people like dirt and it sells cheap as **e yet it's popular.
Killerjock	Posted - 2010.12.20 13:17:00 - [23] Edited by: Killerjock on 20/12/2010 13:19:34 Originally by: Eastman Color If we're talking about eve then, How many are on trial accounts? How many of those trial account convert to subscribers per month? How many new trial accounts are created each month? How many accounts of x/y/z months/years are cancelled each month? How many people log in and just chat to people with doing other stuff? How many people log in just to set skills going? That is actually not very important in my view. IF I continue paying for my subscription that means I'm planning to USE those skills one day. Even if I just logged in for skill updates, why pay $15/eu15 a month if that's just bits accruing in a server I won't visit again? What does count is how many active accounts there are. Those are the people that, now or later, will play eve again. New subs and cancelled subs as well. But I recently started an alt and there was a big bunch of new players doing stupid things in the training system, so I'd say there's still quite some new player coming in. Hell, I just had my first eve-versary ;) Eve ain't dying. Quote: Just because something is not good for you personally does not automatically make it bad for the many others who join or continue playing. Agreed. -- EDIT: failquote.
Nomad Vherokic	Posted - 2010.12.20 13:49:00 - [24] I'd rather die first and grow younger. At the end of my life I'd end up as an orgasm...
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.12.20 14:06:00 - [25] Its just what whiners says when they are gutted at a loss of some sort, eve is most certainly not dying, as you can see for yourself if you check your numbers, its going to keep going up too, the internet is flashing up more EVE ads than ever before.
Indeterminacy THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.20 15:23:00 - [26] Repent! The end is nigh! fake edit:damn wrong forum.
Tyber Zaan	Posted - 2010.12.20 15:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Aineko Macx Because - CCP has demonstrated their incompetence innumerable times on multiple levels - CCP got greedy, putting marketable features over fixing the game - CCP still thinks Second Life is the future and will try to bring the dress-up-crowd into the game - CCP got out of touch with the player base and some of its sections have developed a "lol customers" attitude Funny how CCP is part of all those problems... 1. [CITATION NEEDED]- If you are referring to lag/macro issues. They cant fix these things with a flick of a switch you know. If you are referring to server crashes, EVE actually has one of the more stable servers Ive seen. 2. ORLY? Source for this statement? Are you actually inside CCP and are being shown their priorites on a list? No, your just pulling crap out of your ass. 3. WAAAAAH! I HATE INCARNA CCP STOP MAKING IT NOW AND FOCUS ON WHAT I LIKE WAAAAH! 4. Funny, last I checked CCP was constantly adding things players asked for, example, Rocket rebalancing, T2 ammo rebalancing, and other small stuff. Just because they aren't giving you what YOU want NOW doesn't mean they are "out of touch". TL;DR- Eve is not dying, HTFU
Dante Marcellus Minmatar Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team	Posted - 2010.12.20 15:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Brian Ballsack Its just what whiners says when they are gutted at a loss of some sort, eve is most certainly not dying, as you can see for yourself if you check your numbers, its going to keep going up too, the internet is flashing up more EVE ads than ever before. THIS. I can't go ANYWHERE without seeing an ad for EVE. Not to say that's a bad thing, I just find it weird that, say, when I'm looking for a good recipe for chicken marinade, I see adverts telling me to pwn the universe. <<<< PaxCorpus This wasn't the road home -- This was a road littered with questions that would inevitably lead to an answer.
Aineko Macx	Posted - 2010.12.20 16:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Tyber Zaan 1. [CITATION NEEDED]- If you are referring to lag/macro issues. They cant fix these things with a flick of a switch you know. If you are referring to server crashes, EVE actually has one of the more stable servers Ive seen. Nobody said anything about lag/macro. Even without those there are innumerable displays of incompetence. And it's not only technical issues you know. Quote: 2. ORLY? Source for this statement? Are you actually inside CCP and are being shown their priorites on a list? No, your just pulling crap out of your ass. Dude, it's official, but I guess you've been living under a rock. Quote: 3. WAAAAAH! I HATE INCARNA CCP STOP MAKING IT NOW AND FOCUS ON WHAT I LIKE WAAAAH! Oh, so you hate Incarna. I don't know if I'll hate it, but what is known gives reason for concern, especially considering CCPs track record and slim chances of fitting second life inspired gameplay into the eve universe. Considering the risk and the development resources put into it it is an unwise business decision to say the least. Icarna can safely be called CCPs white elephant. I believe Incarna will be a turning point for eve, either CCP will somehow make it work, or it'll really die down from there. Just look at how all the disappointments have resulted in a net decrease of player accounts in recent times. At least that is a language that CCP understands. Quote: 4. Funny, last I checked CCP was constantly adding things players asked for, example, Rocket rebalancing, T2 ammo rebalancing, and other small stuff. Just because they aren't giving you what YOU want NOW doesn't mean they are "out of touch". "Out of touch" was the consensus TL;DR of all that was said, revealed and discussed around the CSM summit, but you must also have forgotten all that already. Now CCP throws players a bone or two for pacification of the community after the massive outcry, and you too seem happy. And yes, from internals we DO know that customer support sees the forum and vocal players mainly as a nuisance. Quote: TL;DR- Eve is not dying, HTFU Cool, you found a way to place last years meme in the thread. If I didn't care for the game I wouldn't be debating it with gentlemen like you. In the end I would like to be an optimist in regards to Eve, but after all the stunts CCP pulled, it is difficult. ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation.
Sixtina KL The Shoop Group	Posted - 2010.12.20 16:41:00 - [30] Edited by: Sixtina KL on 20/12/2010 16:41:07 c.f.: Ruined Forever __________________________________

Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.20 17:03:00 - [31] They say EVE is dying, because EVE is killing them. This is how awesome it is. --
tradechat	Posted - 2010.12.20 17:42:00 - [32] Edited by: tradechat on 20/12/2010 17:42:04 Could probably just be more RMTers, afk miners, and multiboxers that seemingly half the playerbase are that are inflating the numbers.
Dudeista	Posted - 2010.12.20 17:46:00 - [33] EvE is the hardest MMO to get a grasp of, and that's the main reason preventing it from growing even more. What if all the sims-features would let new players be easily introduced to EvE, providing an easy to understand content instead of waiting for months overwhelmed by our usefulness? More players means more money, which means more resources. All your "resource-whine" is utterly wrong in the long term. You guys are scared about losing all your hardcore features, but it ain't gonna happen. I don't think they would like to lose all their hardcore players, but instead I guess they want to open their world to a larger audience by adding choices and depth to an already deep and hardcore game. And that's what I like about EvE; Choices.
tradechat	Posted - 2010.12.20 17:53:00 - [34] They'd have a very long road ahead of them then. If you take missions for example, the difficulty range is so wide in level 2 missions for example, that it's ridiculous. You can get The Voting Trail and kill 5 NPCs, or get Recon and get inundated with 250k bounty ships and everything else. And with the whole "don't trust anyone else" motto, I don't doubt the difficulty that new players would have trying to get help in the missions.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.20 17:58:00 - [35] Originally by: Dudeista ... I don't think they would like to lose all their hardcore players ... You have no idea. To me it seems as if CCP is willing to sacrifice anything and anyone only to get a higher number of players into EVE. If it means to turn EVE into Hello Kitty, because it gets them more subscriptions then they will do it. Did you read the thread with all the CCPers who play EVE? They are a big bunch of carebears. --
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.12.20 18:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Dudeista EvE is the hardest MMO to get a grasp of, and that's the main reason preventing it from growing even more. What if all the sims-features would let new players be easily introduced to EvE, providing an easy to understand content instead of waiting for months overwhelmed by our usefulness? This is a good thing, Its like a filter that gets rid of most of the idiots and impatient. If they cant get their head around it, or cant be bothered to wait, then it is clearly not the game for them.
Typhis Deterious Crista Research	Posted - 2010.12.21 03:35:00 - [37] Eve isn't dying but the hamster that runs the servers is. [url="http://www.trinitynova.co.uk"
Jask Avan	Posted - 2010.12.21 04:38:00 - [38] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Dudeista ... I don't think they would like to lose all their hardcore players ... You have no idea. To me it seems as if CCP is willing to sacrifice anything and anyone only to get a higher number of players into EVE. If it means to turn EVE into Hello Kitty, because it gets them more subscriptions then they will do it. Did you read the thread with all the CCPers who play EVE? They are a big bunch of carebears. Someone's bitter.
Seul Manus	Posted - 2010.12.21 12:43:00 - [39] Edited by: Seul Manus on 21/12/2010 12:46:24 It may be a tangent but I have never seen the player number on Trinity over the 55,000 mark, CCP has around 300,000 subscribers, so either most don't play the game [much], or the server couldn't handle all 300,000 players at once. Maybe the reason Eve seems in some quarters to be dieing is because not enough ppl are playing the game, and it needs to be freshened up to be made more accessible to more people instead of just catering to a cozy little niche.
Eastman Color	Posted - 2010.12.21 14:00:00 - [40] Originally by: Seul Manus Edited by: Seul Manus on 21/12/2010 12:59:30 Edited by: Seul Manus on 21/12/2010 12:46:24 It may be a tangent but I have never seen the player number on Trinity over the 55,000 mark, CCP has around 300,000 subscribers, so either most don't play the game [much], or the server couldn't handle all 300,000 players at once. erm... you know eve's a global game right and we have these timezone things?

Seul Manus	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:05:00 - [41] Originally by: Eastman Color Originally by: Seul Manus Edited by: Seul Manus on 21/12/2010 12:59:30 Edited by: Seul Manus on 21/12/2010 12:46:24 It may be a tangent but I have never seen the player number on Trinity over the 55,000 mark, CCP has around 300,000 subscribers, so either most don't play the game [much], or the server couldn't handle all 300,000 players at once. erm... you know eve's a global game right and we have these timezone things? Yes, and even when I am playing in the American evening time zone as most of CCP's subscribing players are American, there is still only 54,000 max at any one time on Trinity.
Guthwulf	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:26:00 - [42] Originally by: Seul Manus Originally by: Eastman Color Originally by: Seul Manus Edited by: Seul Manus on 21/12/2010 12:59:30 Edited by: Seul Manus on 21/12/2010 12:46:24 It may be a tangent but I have never seen the player number on Trinity over the 55,000 mark, CCP has around 300,000 subscribers, so either most don't play the game [much], or the server couldn't handle all 300,000 players at once. erm... you know eve's a global game right and we have these timezone things? Yes, and even when I am playing in the American evening time zone as most of CCP's subscribing players are American, there is still only 54,000 max at any one time on Trinity. Personally I play on Tranquillity ;). Like all things eve will fade away eventually. That eventually however looks like its going to be a long way away. Hell I've been playing since 2003 and still enjoy the game how many games last that long and still do. Eve has outlived most mmorgs and long may it continue. IF you don't like it give me your stuff and get lost :). What? are you still here! It canÆt be that bad after all. If all the people who said they were going to quit after pouring vitriol and hate on ccp actually quit then we might have a problem. The truth is they donÆt and we all suck up and carry on playing our fave game regardless. Well her's hoping were all still playing in 2011,12,13,14 hell 2020 :) Guthy
JoBa70	Posted - 2010.12.21 16:37:00 - [43] as you can see, eve is clearly dying
Kraal Jarik	Posted - 2010.12.21 17:21:00 - [44] Quote: Why is Eve dying? Because of stupid threads on the forums, that's why.
xavier69 Gallente Stark Enterprises LLC	Posted - 2010.12.22 01:56:00 - [45] Edited by: xavier69 on 22/12/2010 02:02:29 Quote: Other people think CCP tries to market the game too much to a very broad audience (through various gameplay changes) at which it will fail (like pretty much any other MMORPG trying to compete with WoW) while driving away the "hardcore" audience that make up the niche EVE could exist in for the last 6 years. Hit it on the head CCP has decided to go the way of the raid morg how long before we raid Sashi NPC guy ? Eve was never about large groups doing raid style morg putting that in eve pretty much sells it as another cookie cutter I Stand firmly behind the statement HTFU CCP live by what you preach Look what you did to PI and the base resources Pre PI robotics per unit 6-8k Post PI 68K you done $%&@ up hard These resources people relied on this wasnt added fluff you messed with base core require fuel and resources with no clue as to how to properly do it Its obvious to me you have no economist working for you any longer or you wouldn't have Botched that so terribly So people woke up and found that there gas went from 2 bucks a gallon to 80 bucks per gallon in real world people would die in your world people just Bailed XOXOXOXO
Joe Phoenix	Posted - 2010.12.22 02:17:00 - [46] Subscription base is going DOWN. The number of ACCOUNTS is increasing. There is a big difference, combine that with uncontrolled griefers, thats why EvE might be dying.
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.22 03:24:00 - [47] Edited by: AkJon Ferguson on 22/12/2010 03:25:24 EVE may or may not be dying but it's undoubtedly getting worse. The main problem is CCP. Would you let your 6-year old brother tinker with your new computer? Well, that's a pretty good analogy for watching CCP mangle EVE. A game as complex as EVE requires a tremendous amount of intellect, vision, integrity and competence to develop properly. CCP is lacking in all of these areas. What CCP lacks in substance they try to make up in style, but that act gets old very fast. The best talent undoubtedly gravitates toward the next big game and maybe a 2003 game just can't compete effectively for that talent, but until that talent arrives, EVE will continue its painful decline. My biggest issues are: Bots/macros everywhere CCP favoritism (lack of integrity) CCP actively cheating (lack of integrity) Ignoring the overwhelming near-unanimous wishes of customers (commit to excellence) Lag Allowing stuff like insurance fraud, PI arbitrage and bots/macros to dominate the economy Bait and switch of marketing the game to long-term players and then screwing those players over by making the game easier and easier (lack of integrity) Microtransactions (I don't want to subsidize your haircut when I buy my GTC, thanks.) Pee in the sandbox (nonconsensual pve, 11% tax, 'live events') Eighteen months (huge slap in the face to the player base) Like I said, EVE may or may not be dying but I'll prolly be here when it dies.
Figaro Fortunato	Posted - 2010.12.22 07:05:00 - [48] Because the GM's are arrogant bastards.
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.	Posted - 2010.12.22 07:52:00 - [49] Originally by: Waaaaaagggh Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 20/12/2010 03:10:56 Why are people saying eve is dying? Last i checked the subscriber base is increasing... Is it? Or is it mostly existing players grabbing more accounts? WTB honest subscription reporting.
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.22 07:52:00 - [50] bcause pve carebears want to turn it into wow-easymode pve game with multiple servers. -----------

Pickles Wong	Posted - 2010.12.22 19:06:00 - [51] I had no idea it was. I've been at it for years. If anything, it has gotten more entertaining. My characters have done the whole gamut from trading to null-sec alliances. If it wasn't rewarding, I'd be long gone. You cant ask for a company to do more in terms of upgrade and development. What's not to like? As for a viable business model, it seems to me that CCP has more going for it in terms of costs vs revenue than most fortune 500 companies. I can't see everything they are grappling with, but on the surface it looks good.
lateralvelocity	Posted - 2010.12.22 19:15:00 - [52] EVE died years ago
Geirdriful	Posted - 2010.12.22 20:10:00 - [53] Been hearing that one since 2003
Tau Dades Caldari Even End of the Universe	Posted - 2010.12.22 20:30:00 - [54] Because of Drake!


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