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Razor Blue Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.26 17:55:00 - [31] Originally by: Chakarr Edited by: Chakarr on 25/12/2010 17:46:08 Why do I get the feeling the people who keep crying to change marauders are people that don't fly them themselves...? I get a bit opposite feeling... It seems like most people dont know what its like to fly marauder with excellent skills and full gank fit. Rats die like insects in napalm fire. This char has 6 days till Paladin. Already have Vargur and Kronos, and T2 large turrets naturally. I used to have Golem alt too.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2010.12.26 18:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Plus to give a bit of weight to the noctis obsoleting the marauders you need to think about why you bother to loot and salvage as you kill in the first place: Profits vs time spent. How does this come into play then? With the noctis now sweeping missions clean of every single bit of sellable material in record times then all the massive influx of loot and salvage is eventually going to drive its value to much lower than it is now. This means you will eventually get to the point you make more isk just blitzing missions and so make the whole point of the marauders bonus useless to just getting a nice pirate bs and blitzing even faster. This is pretty far off the mark. The Noctis does nothing (or at least comparatively little) to the market value of loot or salvage because the Noctis does not create loot or salvage. Only your mission ship does that. It only affects the market price by potentially allowing you to run your next mission faster, and you're actually reducing your earning potential by coming back to the mission area in the first place. (You are already at the point where you make more isk just blitzing the next mission instead of ever returning in another ship.) Have you even used a noctis yet? Its like a vacuum cleaner for wrecks when properly fit and can clear entire rooms in literally minutes. Then you have to take in the average mission runners mentality which is usually far far removed from the ocd min/max guys that normaly frequent these threads. To that guy the only reason he never salvaged was because he was simply blitzing missions in a medium skilled raven or cnr because he didn't want to take the time off from training his main to do all the level 5s needed to get in an acceptable marauder and couldn't arse himself to slow boat around in a cane or thrasher after the missions was over. But whoa here is the noctis with its super duper bonuses to salvaging that realistically only needs a few additional level 4 skills past his missle spammer ones. So off he runs for the skillbooks and the hull and now docks up after the bigger missions like blockade and such to grab his noctis and clean up. Now before you ocd min/max guys start screaming bloody murder about how it would still make you more isk to just blitz the missions well I have some sad news for you. He doesn't care. How do I know? I asked. Over and over again in various missions hubs that sprout noctis out of the docking bays almost as much as raven hulls. So I watched mission runners go do their same system ae or ge or blockade etc etc and then watch them come back after bookmarking all the rooms and grabbing his noctis to go and salvage it. They don't care about if they are making a bit less isk per hour doing it. They are having fun with a part of the game that was a royal bore the majority of the time even if you had a marauder because you have to juggle so much at once as you kill and salvage. So yeah you can bet your ass and your profits that sooner or later the markets are going to drop heavily for mission loot and salvage making salvaging with your marauder a questionable expenditure of time at best.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2010.12.26 18:46:00 - [33] Edited by: Zhim''Fufu on 26/12/2010 18:46:51 Originally by: Seriously Bored By comparison, Marauders both create new loot & salvage and harvest it at the same time, faster than any Noctis/mission ship combo can. If anything is affecting the market price, it's Marauders, and if so, then they've been doing it for quite a while. There is no way in hell a solo marauder can kill and salvage faster than the relevant dual account pirate bs + noctis combo. If you actually think this then you just disqualified yourself from this discussion. Unless you mean a solo missioner docking up to get his noctis which might techincally be correct but again we are talking about your average everyday 'I need isk for some pew pew mission runners' who wouldn't know or arse themselves to learn all the things they need to know to be an ocd min/maxer. How do I know this you are saying? Again when I was hopping around the mission hubs looking at what undocks I also was active in local asking questions and getting into some interesting conversations about exactly what they thought was the best isk per hour system of running missions. Welp it certainly wasn't soloing in a marauder. ;-D Originally by: Seriously Bored Yet mission loot prices have been affected more by item table adjustments and market speculation in the time I've been playing, and most of the low values have been set for a very long time. The meta4 and some meta3 drops are really what are worth it, and their likelihood of dropping is entirely unaffected by whether you use a Noctis, Paladin, or Thrasher to loot your mission. With a noctis you don't care about what drops as you just quickly vacuum it all up and dump it on the market. Does it really need to be spelled out for you what happens next?
Chakarr Anarchistic Carebears Bloodbound.	Posted - 2010.12.26 22:20:00 - [34] Originally by: Razor Blue Originally by: Chakarr Edited by: Chakarr on 25/12/2010 17:46:08 Why do I get the feeling the people who keep crying to change marauders are people that don't fly them themselves...? I get a bit opposite feeling... It seems like most people dont know what its like to fly marauder with excellent skills and full gank fit. Rats die like insects in napalm fire. This char has 6 days till Paladin. Already have Vargur and Kronos, and T2 large turrets naturally. I used to have Golem alt too. So you have the same feeling, not the opposite? Your post makes no sense...my point was that if people did know what is was like to fly a marauder then they wouldn't advocate changing it...btw I do have a noctis alt, and I still think the marauder has a place and certainly isn't obsolete - and I certainly don't like the OP's suggestion.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.26 23:17:00 - [35] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Originally by: Seriously Bored By comparison, Marauders both create new loot & salvage and harvest it at the same time, faster than any Noctis/mission ship combo can. If anything is affecting the market price, it's Marauders, and if so, then they've been doing it for quite a while. There is no way in hell a solo marauder can kill and salvage faster than the relevant dual account pirate bs + noctis combo. If you actually think this then you just disqualified yourself from this discussion. I don't think he's saying that ù he's saying that a solo BS + noctis will be slower than a solo Marauder, and likewise that a dual-account BS + noctis will be slower than a dual Marauder. And he'll be right in saying so. The Noctis is great if you want to collect loot and salvage, but that is all it does. It does not speed up killing. It does not generate any new wrecks. It does not generate any bounties. It does these things so well, in fact, that if matched with most other ships, it will sit idle most of the time. As a combination arse-pull/hunch/experience-guestimate, I'd say that a Noctis is about enough to service 4-5 high-speed kill ships ù maybe less if you want to grab absolutely all the loot, since it can pile up pretty quickly. Anything less than that, and you're better off in a second ship that generates its own income (unless you use it as a parking space for your trade/hauling alt and/or future-mission-alt-to-be). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2010.12.27 05:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Originally by: Seriously Bored By comparison, Marauders both create new loot & salvage and harvest it at the same time, faster than any Noctis/mission ship combo can. If anything is affecting the market price, it's Marauders, and if so, then they've been doing it for quite a while. There is no way in hell a solo marauder can kill and salvage faster than the relevant dual account pirate bs + noctis combo. If you actually think this then you just disqualified yourself from this discussion. I don't think he's saying that ù he's saying that a solo BS + noctis will be slower than a solo Marauder, and likewise that a dual-account BS + noctis will be slower than a dual Marauder. And he'll be right in saying so. The Noctis is great if you want to collect loot and salvage, but that is all it does. It does not speed up killing. It does not generate any new wrecks. It does not generate any bounties. It does these things so well, in fact, that if matched with most other ships, it will sit idle most of the time. As a combination arse-pull/hunch/experience-guestimate, I'd say that a Noctis is about enough to service 4-5 high-speed kill ships ù maybe less if you want to grab absolutely all the loot, since it can pile up pretty quickly. Anything less than that, and you're better off in a second ship that generates its own income (unless you use it as a parking space for your trade/hauling alt and/or future-mission-alt-to-be). Which I explained already in the paragraph directly under the one you quoted. Again I'm not saying that you can make more isk per hour on paper with a solo bs and noctis but the usage trend so far seems to be just that if my sample polling was any indication. So all I am saying is that you are getting lots of mission runners who used to pass up looting and salvaging who now are going back to the bigger missions and literally grabbing every nugget of loot and salvage. So when you have more supply when you used to have less it means that prices are going to drop. This means that your time spent salvaging in your marauder as you kill is going to be worth less and less until it gets to the point you will be making more isk just by blitzing with a pirate bs. This is what people mean by the noctis making marauders obsolete. Unless of course all the newfound salvagers get bored of salvaging even with the noctis and the overall supply of loot and salvage drops again. Now another option if and when the market crashes on mission lootz is to not give the marauders a 40km salvager but to give it a bonus that lets it get better salvage per wreck than a normal ship or even the noctis.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.27 06:08:00 - [37] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu So all I am saying is that you are getting lots of mission runners who used to pass up looting and salvaging who now are going back to the bigger missions and literally grabbing every nugget of loot and salvage. I still think you're suffering from a bit of confirmation bias. You're seeing all these Noctises in space, and concluding that it's leading to more junk on the market, because you're looking for them. Those same people undocking in the Noctis were undocking in the Hurricane or the Thrasher a month ago. The same amount of loot is getting sucked up either way. I'll say it one more time: the Noctis does not create any more loot or salvage than any other salvage ship. Only mission ships have the potential to generate the extra loot and salvage that would affect market prices, and if the players flying Noctises are not in the mix/max crowd, then they are by definition mitigating their impact on the market prices of these items in the first place. Quote: This means that your time spent salvaging in your marauder as you kill is going to be worth less and less until it gets to the point you will be making more isk just by blitzing with a pirate bs. People were saying this before the last mission loot nerf. It still isn't true. The Marauders are currently fine, will be fine in the future, and don't need a buff of any sort...at least as far as PVE is concerned. All the Noctis has done is change the perceived value of Marauders among the non "min/max" crowd, and made the "min/max" crowd really sick of explaining why the common perception is wrong. Oh well. It'll eventually be cheaper Marauders for those in the know, which I suppose isn't a bad thing after all. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
VIP Ares Minmatar BALKAN EXPRESS B A L E X	Posted - 2010.12.27 11:54:00 - [38] I bet 90% of all this "Marauders are fine, learn to use it" are actually happy Noctis pilots who never had patience and ambition to skill up for Marauder, and now profit from easy salvage.
stoicfaux Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.27 14:51:00 - [39] Originally by: Seriously Bored Those same people undocking in the Noctis were undocking in the Hurricane or the Thrasher a month ago. The same amount of loot is getting sucked up either way. I'll say it one more time: the Noctis does not create any more loot or salvage than any other salvage ship. Only mission ships have the potential to generate the extra loot and salvage that would affect market prices Good point, but probably a little bit off. The Noctis salvages and loots significantly faster than a hurricane or destroyer, which means those folks will be getting back into their mission ships a bit faster, which will generate more salvage and loot. Thus the price of salvage and loot (and loyalty shop items) should drop a wee bit. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Sean Faust Gallente Point of No Return Waterboard	Posted - 2010.12.27 15:48:00 - [40] Originally by: Razor Blue Loot drops were nerfed anyways and Noctis is much more efficient looter so looting/tractoring ability now bit obsolete on marauders. Also its bit too much of a hassle to shoot, tractor and salvage the wrecks during mission. Making marauders able to salvage from longer range would make them better choice for pve over faction battleships. There are two ways you can go about doing it (assuming you're not dual boxing): 1. Use a Marauder and loot/salvage while you kill, going after only the BS wrecks. 2. Use a gankier ship such as a Machariel to wipe the mission out then come back and loot/salvage everything in a Noctis. Personally I prefer doing the first one as it seems to be more efficient. Not every mission is worth going back afterwards in a salvage ship for. So no, Noctis hasn't obsoleted Marauders.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2010.12.27 16:18:00 - [41] Edited by: Zhim''Fufu on 27/12/2010 16:26:18 Originally by: Seriously Bored I still think you're suffering from a bit of confirmation bias. You're seeing all these Noctises in space, and concluding that it's leading to more junk on the market, because you're looking for them. Those same people undocking in the Noctis were undocking in the Hurricane or the Thrasher a month ago. The same amount of loot is getting sucked up either way. I'll say it one more time: the Noctis does not create any more loot or salvage than any other salvage ship. Only mission ships have the potential to generate the extra loot and salvage that would affect market prices, and if the players flying Noctises are not in the mix/max crowd, then they are by definition mitigating their impact on the market prices of these items in the first place. I still think you're suffering from a bit of forum warrior bias. Again I have yet to state that the noctis replaces the marauder or generates loots. But what it does do is convince players that would never arse themselves to salvage before into salvaging now. Which means that wreck fields that used to rot in space are now getting vacuumed up in short order. This is backed up by my weekish long trek through the various mission hubs watching a pilot in a bs undock then come back and then go back out in a noctis along with probing out missions and observing the action first hand. Once I identified enough of them I started asking questions in local and sending private convos to them. The consensus from the ones that responded is that they all pretty much said this is the first time they have felt like salvaging was worth it. Just sayin. Originally by: Seriously Bored People were saying this before the last mission loot nerf. It still isn't true. The loot nerfs effected everyone equally with reduced isk per mission. This actually had the effect of driving even more players away from salvaging so it didn't really effect profits in a noticable way as the drop in availibility drove up prices so it balanced out to about the same as before in isk per hour terms. The noctis while still effecting everone has had the opposite effect as even more players want to salvage because its so quick and easy to clean even the largest mission clean in a fairly short time. Now tell me what happens next. Originally by: Seriously Bored The Marauders are currently fine, will be fine in the future, and don't need a buff of any sort...at least as far as PVE is concerned. All the Noctis has done is change the perceived value of Marauders among the non "min/max" crowd, and made the "min/max" crowd really sick of explaining why the common perception is wrong. Oh well. It'll eventually be cheaper Marauders for those in the know, which I suppose isn't a bad thing after all. Well the vast majority of mission runners that gave an opinion don't care about your min/maxer sensibilities and will happily go on doing it the inefficient way because to them it doesn't seem inefficient. Rage as you will, it's not going to do you any good as the vast milling herd could care less and will happily dump their noctis full of loot in full undercutting glory.
Chakarr Anarchistic Carebears Bloodbound.	Posted - 2010.12.27 17:53:00 - [42] Originally by: VIP Ares I bet 90% of all this "Marauders are fine, learn to use it" are actually happy Noctis pilots who never had patience and ambition to skill up for Marauder, and now profit from easy salvage. Er, no - at least not in my case anyway (Linkage) You'll note I haven't even bothered to train salvaging to V, and I still think Marauders are fine. (saying that I wouldn't oppose a salvaging buff in addition to it's current bonuses )
Jask Avan	Posted - 2010.12.27 20:09:00 - [43] Hell of a lot faster to get in a BS+Noctis than Marauder. Hell, I'm still months away from Marauder.
VIP Ares Minmatar BALKAN EXPRESS B A L E X	Posted - 2010.12.29 08:07:00 - [44] Originally by: Chakarr Originally by: VIP Ares I bet 90% of all this "Marauders are fine, learn to use it" are actually happy Noctis pilots who never had patience and ambition to skill up for Marauder, and now profit from easy salvage. Er, no - at least not in my case anyway (Linkage) You'll note I haven't even bothered to train salvaging to V, and I still think Marauders are fine. (saying that I wouldn't oppose a salvaging buff in addition to it's current bonuses ) You are in other 10% ;)
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.29 08:52:00 - [45] Originally by: VIP Ares You are in other 10% ;) Me too! Me too! -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -

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