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trance atlas
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Posted - 2010.12.21 01:41:00 -
[1]
hi i have a few questions, i tired to manipulate a market i bought 95% at x mil and left the one odd ball at y then put mine at 1 below y i have no sales and the item is back at the original price of x mil.
i assume the people who undercut me by 10 mil are trying to get me to buy the stock they have left but i wonder why undercut by 10 mil when 10 k makes you first on the list.
so should i go all in again buy all below me and get my order top dog or wait because they want me to do that , do i need to fill the buy orders so they do not look 10 mil below what they should?
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Hivsen Ng
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Posted - 2010.12.21 02:03:00 -
[2]
You clearly haven't thought out the entire market manipulation thing at all.
Serves you right though.
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Eve Trollin
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Posted - 2010.12.21 02:06:00 -
[3]
At this point you need to sell all of the units you've bought to buy orders while at the same time buying out the rest of the sell orders. Rinse and repeat.
After x days, the manipulation will be a success. |
Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.21 02:11:00 -
[4]
Realistically you need to do a few things to properly manipulate.
1) You need to gauge the size of the market, and know that you have enough isk to buy out several days worth of trade in Jita or several regions, whatever is larger.
2) You need to ramp into the manipulation, unless its unusually rare items.
3) You do need to control both sides of the spread, but you don't need to be the top order on either side.
4) You need to understand the product, know why its used, how, and in what quantities.
And honestly a ton more, but those are the big four things that I can see you just didnt bother to do.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to buy more guidance systems.
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mechtech
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.21 02:18:00 -
[5]
Unless there is an underlying increase in demand that has yet to be reflected in the market price, the manipulation will almost certainly be very short lived. You're going to get stockpiles .01ing you and possibly placing large orders way below you in the hopes you'll buy up their stock. In addition, you get traders doing cross-regional arbitrage, and the sheep who just sell for the normal price for the hell of it.
I've only found success in manipulating an item that is genuinely undervalued do to a shortage in the supply chain or recently increased demand, so my advice assumes your item fits that criteria.
A "round 2" really helps. The 2nd round reinforces the perception that the item is in demand, and can have a couple of beneficial effects. For one it can make people with stockpiles think twice about dumping onto the market, many times they will decide to hold out and see if the price keeps skyrocketing. Another thing it can do is start a bandwagon effect, and if you can cause other traders to jump in, you've scored a hole in one. You can either choose to let them take their turn and watch, or dump into them, either basically guarantees a successful manipulation with the end result of positive profit.
Spamming buy orders is tricky but sometimes necessary. The best thing to do from the buy order side is to throw in some small buy orders and slowly stair-step the price up (people will .01 outbid even a relatively small buy order). If the item genuinely has more demand or a shortage in supply (which is the reason that most manipulations are initiated), let the market breathe too. If you keep your big stack at the bottom of the market 24/7, sellers will get annoyed and will dump into buy orders. It's important to keep buy orders intact.
Never forget manufacturers either, always check the components of what you are trying to manipulate. If you forget this, you risk having 1000 manufacturing jobs immediately going into production which shortly creates a huge oversupply, while you still hold the original stock.
I have a feeling most manipulations lose money or barely break even, but that's just my view. .01ing is too hard for me to deal with to make any short term manipulation pay off. I might sell some of the stock for high prices right after I clear out the market due to other traders jumping in, but it takes rising buy orders from real people to keep the price propped up for long enough to cash out.
I don't make my isk this way like I'm sure many do, but I do believe that some of what I've learned were valuable lessons.
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trance atlas
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Posted - 2010.12.21 02:20:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Hivsen Ng
You clearly haven't thought out the entire market manipulation thing at all.
Serves you right though.
Qurious as to what serves me right? Trying to learn something? How dare I 
Thanks for the other thoughts
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Zeta Zhul
Caldari
Preemptive Paranoia
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Posted - 2010.12.21 03:05:00 -
[7]
Well my advice is this:
1. Buy from all of my sell orders no matter where they are.
2. Sell to all of my buy orders even if you have to buy the inventory from someone else.
Repeat until you've made billions! Billions I say!!
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Rasz Lin
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.21 06:33:00 -
[8]
Sooo, are you the guy that bougt all the Dramiels, didnt list his own (I listed few at 160mil :P but idiots just listed at 80mil immediately after me), and watched how price comes back to 69mil in under 15 minutes? :)
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Caldari 5
Amarr
The Element Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.21 07:48:00 -
[9]
1 Find item that demand or supply is going to change soon
2 Buy entire region
3 List at decently higher price, with a few at 10 and 100 times this price
4 use alt to buy 1 or 2 units of the 10 and 100 times price (plays with the graphs)
5 Buy any new stock that other people put on the market
6 list the new stock at 0.01 isk above your original stock making it look like you under cut yourself
Repeat steps 5 and 6 for a couple of weeks.
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.12.21 08:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Caldari 5
1 Find item that demand or supply is going to change soon
2 Buy entire region
3 List at decently higher price, with a few at 10 and 100 times this price
4 use alt to buy 1 or 2 units of the 10 and 100 times price (plays with the graphs)
5 Buy any new stock that other people put on the market
6 list the new stock at 0.01 isk above your original stock making it look like you under cut yourself
Repeat steps 5 and 6 for a couple of weeks.
this is a very long-term strategy which requires a lot of funds (because you will basically buy out the entire universe as people buy items from cheap sell orders in other regions and haul them to your station to profit from your manipulation/break it).
That's fine if your manipulation has a real foundation in fundamentals and you have the funds to keep it up for a few weeks.
However, most manipulations just seem to exploit the delay with which supply reacts to a price increase and don't last longer than a few days (say 2-5 days). In these cases I would recommend to buy out the neighboring regions and close hubs as well.
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Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2010.12.21 09:40:00 -
[11]
Okay I think it was about a year ago, I went to Amarr to see what Mechanical Data Cores was selling for as I had a bunch to unload. It had only two long standing orders at 560k.
The Average sell in the Domain region was at 400k to 450k but they was all at the research stations abandoned by lazy lazy researching toons.
So I bought all the Mechanical Data Cores from around the region. All of them. Hauled them to Amarr, Added them to my own pile of Data Cores and put the whole lot up for 559,999.99 ISK.
And somehow I managed to sell them all before the pre-patch returnies arrived and reactivated their accounts to flood the market with Mechanical Data Cores.
Took me like 2 minutes from opening the market to deciding to pull the manipulation.
EVE truly does reward he who dares.
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Serene Python
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Posted - 2010.12.21 10:57:00 -
[12]
If you're particularly lazy you can let the lemmings handle raising the price by buying out a large amount of sell orders and start raising the buy order price up gradually so buy orders keep the price up higher. Then when you are tired of holding onto your original stock pile just dump into buy orders(or just list in sell orders) and enjoy the profit
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.21 11:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: trance atlas
Originally by: Hivsen Ng
You clearly haven't thought out the entire market manipulation thing at all. Serves you right though.
Curious as to what serves me right? Trying to learn something? How dare I
Well, let's see... almost everything you could do wrong, you did wrong.
Researching the market ? Nope, apparently not one bit.
Because if you would have done that, you would have noticed there's a high risk more than just a handful of players in it would be ready to dump extra stock.
Carefully stockpiling large amounts of CHEAP items before manipulation attempt ? Nope.
Any pre-manipulation designed to decrease prices so you could buy out stocks cheaper in the first place ? Not that either.
Your only hope was pinned on whatever you purchased at already-increased prices, it seems.
Following or anticipating any particular upswing of the market in the immediate future ? STILL NO.
You simply hoped your quick purchase would be sufficient. It obviously wasn't.
Trying to manipulate others into moving the price in the direction you desired ? Nu-uh.
Again, you tried to do it all yourself, and not only by yourself, but in a single move.
What you did was not a manipulation, it was a "buy and relist" move, and you did it at the worst possible time (when nothing was happening to make people even consider accepting it), without putting any thought into it at all at any particular step.
There was literally almost NOTHING you did right.
That's why the other guy said that "it serves you right".
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
_
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.12.21 11:32:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/12/2010 11:32:57
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: trance atlas
Originally by: Hivsen Ng
You clearly haven't thought out the entire market manipulation thing at all. Serves you right though.
Curious as to what serves me right? Trying to learn something? How dare I
Well, let's see... almost everything you could do wrong, you did wrong.
Researching the market ? Nope, apparently not one bit.
Because if you would have done that, you would have noticed there's a high risk more than just a handful of players in it would be ready to dump extra stock.
Carefully stockpiling large amounts of CHEAP items before manipulation attempt ? Nope.
Any pre-manipulation designed to decrease prices so you could buy out stocks cheaper in the first place ? Not that either.
Akita, when are we going to see a "how to properly manipulate the market" hotlink in your signature? It'll stand well along with the other useful stuff 
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.21 11:49:00 -
[15]
So many things to account for there, it's more an art than anything else.
Well, that, or insanely complicated model with many variables which can at best be guesstimated even if you "probe" for them, others you can only infer from forum posts and so on... so basically, yeah, more art than exact science either way.
And that's just assuming fully silent manipulation, not even going into "psychological warfare" category.
I think it would be just as easy to write a "how to FC a 0.0 fleet properly" guide.
Scratch that, it would probably be easier to write that one instead 
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
_
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Rasz Lin
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.21 13:39:00 -
[16]
I am interested in a working technique for knocking down the price of something with good turnover (1K a day, >1T a day). So far I was unsuccessful :(
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Caldari 5
Amarr
The Element Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.21 14:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Cyaxares II
Originally by: Caldari 5
1 Find item that demand or supply is going to change soon
2 Buy entire region
3 List at decently higher price, with a few at 10 and 100 times this price
4 use alt to buy 1 or 2 units of the 10 and 100 times price (plays with the graphs)
5 Buy any new stock that other people put on the market
6 list the new stock at 0.01 isk above your original stock making it look like you under cut yourself
Repeat steps 5 and 6 for a couple of weeks.
this is a very long-term strategy which requires a lot of funds (because you will basically buy out the entire universe as people buy items from cheap sell orders in other regions and haul them to your station to profit from your manipulation/break it).
That's fine if your manipulation has a real foundation in fundamentals and you have the funds to keep it up for a few weeks.
However, most manipulations just seem to exploit the delay with which supply reacts to a price increase and don't last longer than a few days (say 2-5 days). In these cases I would recommend to buy out the neighboring regions and close hubs as well.
The biggest key point in my way is step "1 Find item that demand or supply is going to change soon"
Past items that I have changed are:
Blue Ice just after the patch that changed the system requirements to play, Which I guessed was going to have a hit on supply as people were not going to be able to play for at least a bit till they bought new hardware RL.(price changed in a number of regions close by as a result of this one, as the region that I changed it in had high sec ice fields)
Just after the QED report that had Drakes as a higher count I doubled the price of Medium Core Defence Field Purges.(at least in my region)
Key things like these you need to keep an eye on Dev Blogs, Reports and other information sources.
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Untraceable Alt
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Posted - 2010.12.21 14:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Rasz Lin
I am interested in a working technique for knocking down the price of something with good turnover (1K a day, >1T a day). So far I was unsuccessful :(
Placing a huge sell order has been known to do the trick. It needs to be huge or someone will just buy you out. You may want to experiment with placing it a few jumps out from the hub.
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trance atlas
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Posted - 2010.12.21 14:18:00 -
[19]
thank you all for your time, i thought that a item that could not be manufactured would be easier to adjust, but obviously i was wrong. research is something that would have helped me it seems but this was a knee jerk reaction to what i assumed was quick isk .
thank you again
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heheheh
Phoenix Club
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Posted - 2010.12.21 14:22:00 -
[20]
yea you really need to know what your trading and all other associated products.
I have seen people try to corner projectiles alot, but they only buy the one type of gun and people just switch to buy other types instead.
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Ava Zarrs
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Posted - 2010.12.22 13:26:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Ava Zarrs on 22/12/2010 13:35:18
Noone manipulates the market as massive as CCP does... just look at the current situation with T2 ships after the learning skill redistribution... If you want to make money try to predict things like this when CCP announces a change. that will make you filthy rich.
Buy you¦re orca today for 300 millions and sell it for 450 millions... that¦s what I call a margin :D
Darn.. wish I¦d seen it coming..
-Ava
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Tuborg
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.22 13:37:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ava Zarrs
Does anybody have information on the significant price increase in Command Ships that¦s going on for some days now?
Maybe a case of successfull market manipulation?
-Ava
Probably just a temporary effect due to the learning skill point redistribution. All of a sudden, there are a lot of new command ship pilots out there. Same thing has happened for many other ships with high skill requirements.
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Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
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Posted - 2010.12.22 15:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ava Zarrs
Edited by: Ava Zarrs on 22/12/2010 13:35:18
Noone manipulates the market as massive as CCP does... just look at the current situation with T2 ships after the learning skill redistribution... If you want to make money try to predict things like this when CCP announces a change. that will make you filthy rich.
Buy you¦re orca today for 300 millions and sell it for 450 millions... that¦s what I call a margin :D
Darn.. wish I¦d seen it coming..
This is how CCP operates (well and the incentive they get from us). Every significant change they make shuffles the market and encourages people to buy plexes. It generates excitement among people looking for some isk. It also explains their habit of excessive correction. Why conservatively tweak something, when you can bring the nerfbat down hard and roil the markets profitably?
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Truespeaker
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Posted - 2010.12.22 19:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: trance atlas
Originally by: Hivsen Ng
You clearly haven't thought out the entire market manipulation thing at all. Serves you right though.
Curious as to what serves me right? Trying to learn something? How dare I
Well, let's see... almost everything you could do wrong, you did wrong.
Researching the market ? Nope, apparently not one bit.
Because if you would have done that, you would have noticed there's a high risk more than just a handful of players in it would be ready to dump extra stock.
Carefully stockpiling large amounts of CHEAP items before manipulation attempt ? Nope.
Any pre-manipulation designed to decrease prices so you could buy out stocks cheaper in the first place ? Not that either.
Your only hope was pinned on whatever you purchased at already-increased prices, it seems.
Following or anticipating any particular upswing of the market in the immediate future ? STILL NO.
You simply hoped your quick purchase would be sufficient. It obviously wasn't.
Trying to manipulate others into moving the price in the direction you desired ? Nu-uh.
Again, you tried to do it all yourself, and not only by yourself, but in a single move.
What you did was not a manipulation, it was a "buy and relist" move, and you did it at the worst possible time (when nothing was happening to make people even consider accepting it), without putting any thought into it at all at any particular step.
There was literally almost NOTHING you did right.
That's why the other guy said that "it serves you right".
The guy that just manipulated the hell outta fernite carbide seemed to have done just the opposite... apart from researching the market he seems to have done it in 1 sweep.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.22 19:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Truespeaker
The guy that just manipulated the hell outta fernite carbide seemed to have done just the opposite... apart from researching the market he seems to have done it in 1 sweep.
Yeah, I was looking at that. I was like 'wait what? Unless someone is building a *ton* of JFs, this is really weird behavior'. I think Fernite Carbide is a great choice to manipulate because its profits are so low that very few people actually produce it. The supply chain would take a pretty significant amount of time to make more of it.
BUT, people like me have tons of it sitting around back from when the price was actually reasonable. Tra la la la.
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
- Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Truespeaker
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Posted - 2010.12.23 04:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Truespeaker
The guy that just manipulated the hell outta fernite carbide seemed to have done just the opposite... apart from researching the market he seems to have done it in 1 sweep.
Yeah, I was looking at that. I was like 'wait what? Unless someone is building a *ton* of JFs, this is really weird behavior'. I think Fernite Carbide is a great choice to manipulate because its profits are so low that very few people actually produce it. The supply chain would take a pretty significant amount of time to make more of it.
BUT, people like me have tons of it sitting around back from when the price was actually reasonable. Tra la la la.
-Liang
The Fernite carbide manipulation is based on the minmatar t2 BS prices, which are silly high atm. Even buying Fernite carbide at 50% over standard price, one can make a fortune if you can churn them out fast enough... which is the gamble on this. I myself am kicking myself for selling 5bn of stock just before the patch.... luckily i managed to re-invest it before the fernite price hike.
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