Sounds fair.

Yeah... Surely you pay their sub with RL money.

If you don't buy PLEX for your buff alts, the price of PLEX would be less for single account players.

Unless a large percentage of the Elite players are paying for their buff alts with real $ (unlikely) then get ready for the off-grind nerf.

You know if off-grid boosting was nerfed then more CS pilots would be needed in fleets=your character just became more valuable than before. Then if you decide you don't want it anymore, sell it, I am sure there are plenty of buyers then.

Just saying.

They would be worth more than they are now.

OP is totally right. Remember how CCP never nerfed Falcon range and so everyone still has a Falcon alt?



Long-term game balance is far more important for CCP's bottom line than short-term alt subscriptions. CCP isn't dumb and recognizes this. Off-grid boosting is going to be removed and yes, your alt is going to become useless.

Well, you are wrong. Leadership skills would become more valuable since demand would increase by a lot. I am not knocking your ideas or anything but just knocking that part of your argument because it is wrong.

edit; actually, I would knock on your suggestions too if I had the time.

thats not a hard fix.

make it so links only effect ships on grid with them, and they cant be activated inside a pos bubble, and buff the warfare processor sub on tech 3s so they have a comparable or better tank than a CS. If you fit a proper tank to a CS they are already pretty damn hard to kill if you have enough logi to keep them alive.

You mean like they won't ban bots, since they're paying customers or they won't nerf datacore farming, since many people had datacore farming alt accounts and it had been around for a very long time? I'm sorry but your 15 dollars aren't any more important than anyone elses and if you think it buys you a nerf shield, you're delusional. CCP is making the best game they think they can and occasionally changing things just to keep the game interesting. Threats of account cancelation are heard with every major change to the game and are ignored unless they reach massive numbers. On the other hand well constructed counter arguments can change their minds every time.

They need to swap the bonuses for the tech 3 and commandship. Tech 2 is supposed to specialize, while tech 3 is supposed to be generalized (so under this assumption vulture>tengu, but that's not the case). I trained for a vulture on my main but I decided to say f*ck that and got my alt into a tengu.

If you made this change it would really hurt tech 3 cruiser boosting and buff commandship boosting. Also, I want to fly my vulture again.

Stop dreaming, eventually stop taking those things getting you high it might help to face reality: off grid boosting is going to change, and those changes you will not like them doesn't matter how much you dream.

Be reasonable, be a big boy and stop complaining.

I like your ideas, but your premise that CCP wont do anything about the problem is flawed. Or have you forgotten the 1500+ (I'm not sure what the current number is) of RMT accounts that have been banned. So, it is NOT a money issue, more likely a resource issue. I am sure they would love to fix this along with all the other things they have already fixed and are continuing to fix. It might make it into the upcoming patches, who knows.

Well, hopefully CCP realizes that this makes their "player base" (in quotes, as it's often one guy with 10 alts) very fragile.

If that one guy quits, for whatever reason - work, family, illness, loss of interest, better game, etc - they will lose not one account, but ten. If this happened on a large enough scale - like in case of a better game - the population could collapse to unsustainable level virtually overnight.

I mean, we're being given numbers like 450 subscriptions. Does that mean 450k unique individuals? Probably not. It likely means 450k paid/PLEXed accounts. Suppose an average EVE player has 3 accounts. Which I think is not too far from the truth. That means there's only 150k actual players. That's a pretty tiny and fragile population, as the Incarnageddon dip last year showed. It could easily fall 10% or more at the drop of a hat.

In other words, if CCP are smart, they will change game mechanics to encourage MORE PEOPLE, not more accounts. Current off-grid passive boosting encourages more accounts. Which in turns drives away people. I myself am pretty unhappy with being handicapped unless I use an alt account to boost myself. It's not enough to make me quit yet, but in the back of my mind it's yet another minus against EVE. Which I feel is a huge mistake.

More people is always better than more accounts.

Eh, i hate small gang off-grid boosting more than anything.

Umm... Why it's so difficult to just train CS5?

I'm sure someone has already said this: both sides can have OGB's. What is the big deal? It's fair by it's very nature. Anybody can train the skills, buy the hulls and mods. I'm not seeing what the problem is.

The OP points out the issues between T3 versus Command ships boosting, but that's a different issue of fairness based upon training times and functionality. I mean, if you are one of the people who trained command ships, I can see your beef.

Because EVERY SHIP should need to be on grid and be in the danger of combat to affect the combat!

Yeah, limit T3s to squad only. Ok, we have enough Tengu pilots with perfect leadership so we put one into every squad.

Why it's so difficult to see the problem?

So In fleets to 256 your going to have 25 off grid boosting tengues? Good luck with that Idea. What the OP is saying about limiting boosting T3's to squad mmand only is an option that would limit them. The problem that someone else has mentioned was that boosting T3's are damn hard to probe out. If you made it so that Gang links or better yet the Command Processors so that the more links you fit onto a T3 after 1 makes it easier to scan would be a great idea. My 2 cents

Is Tengu T2? No.
Is Falcon T2? Yes.
Is Scimitar T2? Yes.

Any reason why T3s should remain better at boosting compared to command ships? T2 battlecruisers (aka command ships) should be best at boosting.

I don't recall saying CCP doesn't want money, I recall saying that they make more money by fixing their game.

your idea would be the death of the rorq. many people pay for accounts just to use a rorq to support their mining operations. but since the beast is very expensive, has no defense of it's own, and must be in siege mode to do it's job, your idea would guarentee that no one could use the ship again.

I play the game to have fun, yes. Up until 3 years ago, I played it for killmails - pure highscore hunting. Getting a KM just satisfied me and I wouldn't get to sleep without at least 1 kill.


I made my isk elsewhere and used my other sources of income to fund that.

But that's exactly what's wrong with the game - people fly around in lowsec in expensive ships with absolutely no purpose, running high sec l4s, production chains and market alts to fund it, which renders the pvp entirely meaningless.

From a tactical/gameplay perspective, there's almost no point in running small gangs.

Call me a moron, but I think that's just a terrible design flaw in a so-called 'pvp-focused game'.

So what you're saying is that if the person sits there staring at their T3 booster "alt" all the time and pounds D-Scan they can avoid getting probed out? Holy hell, that works in a target painted Marauder too.

-Liang

Ed: I mean it about the Marauder too, BTW. I was running Sansha missions in a Vargur and never got probed out despite the fact I was frequently painted. :) Just to be perfectly clear, I was running missions in hostile space and had standings to nobody at all. And they still couldn't take it down.

You are the one who seems demanding.

I will play eve as i like, and give my opinions, as I like.

Right so becoming good at immersion breaking alt dual boxing becomes the key to eve. Allot of people don't think this sounds fun.

I am addressing the op in this thread. I do not know what your proposal is.

The accute pressure to dual box comes when you try to fight a frigate with your cruiser (let alone another frigate) only to find that frigate can point you at 40k and sensor damp you to 25k and is so fast and agile you can't possibly even target it let alone catch it. So you either need to call for back up and hope they can come or die a slow death. Yay fun times, great game.

Now yeah that might not cause a problem for someone who never undocks unless they are with a fleet to help them blob everyone. But for others who like solo and small gang pvp it sucks.

At this point you're trying to argue that having more accounts (whether controlled by one person or not) in an MMO shouldn't give an advantage and thats going to be a tough sell. I've done plenty of small scale pvp in the (admittedly distant) past, even some solo stuff (ask me about taking out an entire BoB t2 frigate gang in an Oneiros some time) but if I'm flying solo and I lose to 2 people thats my fault for engaging outnumbered, not the fault of the 2 people for breaking the non-existant sanctity of the 1v1.

It doesn't matter if those 2 people are 1 guy and an alt or 2 seperate physical people, its still 2v1. All other things being equal 2 on grid ships piloted by different people should beat 1 on grid ship and 1 offgrid booster.

So it's about ego. You want to be able to talk about how you fight outnumbered and win, and then brag to all your friends about it what an elite PVPer you are.

Fighting outnumbered is supposed to be hard. "I can't fight outnumbered and win" isn't a balance argument.

Not emptyquoting.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

What else could I get from the fact that you feel entitled to winning many vs one fights? Winning a many-person-vs-one fight is damn near impossible because you're fighting multiple other people who are very likely competent in PVP. Without boosters you could simply look for fights that are less "Nigh impossible", but no...you specifically want to go into fights where it's you against 2-3+ others and win. Why is that?

Moreover, why don't you just fly more expensive ships? Instead of trying to fight outnumbered against ships of your own class (which is folly unless you outplay the hell out of your opponents), why don't you just fly something shinier or bigger...Fly a rupture into a small gang of t1 frigates? Send a Hurricane against a couple cruisers.

There is only one reason why the above isn't acceptable to you. Your opponents would actually get to see your advantage. The killboard would show your advantage.

Moreover, you only need one boosting character for a fleet of virtually any size. It's dumb to say that OGBs are a boost to small gangs when it's far easier for a blob to have boosts.

This is the typical behaviour of the OGB user in lowsec areas. Pretend to be prey, then proceed to demolish the unfortunate dudes who couldn't have possibly known that he's tanking about twice as much as he should while moving 50% faster.

You pay $15 extra per month or ~500 million ISK, as well as the cost of the booster hull, to have that OGB alt. From a cost perspective that's no advantage. The only advantage to a booster alt is that while a more expensive ship or expensive fittings would show your advantage, whereas having an OGB does not.

Example? How does everyone on the field having 30% more shield HP, or more velocity, or longer point range, tip the scales in favor of a small gang?

The game as it stands would be better without boosts at all...And if certain command ships were underpowered to the point that they weren't used, it would still be an improvement over the current situation. The only reason why I would call for a rebalance first rather than just nerfing them into the ground until they can be fixed is that it would be unfair to the people who currently have SP in leadership and dumped ISK into CS/boosting t3s.

I fail to see how that's different than the current situation.

No, my solution is to stop believing you're entitled to have statistical advantages over everyone.

I recall explaining why I thought implants were a poor mechanic. I never bashed you specifically for using them.

Already answered; the statistical advantages from invisible things like faction mods are minor. Even the statistical advantages of things like implants are pretty small relative to cost.


Regardless, there's little point in continuing this since apparently everyone's bitty. CCP and the CSM have already spoken, and OGBs are not going to be here for very long.

I remember making a suggestion that it should not be possible to activate gang links while inside or within 5k of POS shields a while back. Was immediately flammed. Now people are suggesting pretty much the same thing. Funny.

Well I can decide if I want to engage 2 pilots on grid because, well I see two pilots on grid. Thats sort of the point of having boosters....wait for it..... on grid.

Yes, it would be better for the blobbing combat you FW types like. But for people who like small gangs would be immediately worse.

-Liang

it would terribly damage the unprobable boosting alt style of combat
lol

badpost circa 2010

Face it your off grid booster is a crutch. That is why you rarely pvp outside ammamake. That is why you are in every one of these off grid boosting threads trying to justify an obviously bad mechanic.

Just try walking without the crutch you will be able to do it.

Not if they are in a pos in your corps home system.

What is your problem? Seriously leave the crutch behind.

What is the risk in having one in a pos in your home system?

There are no offgrid boosters in a 1v1 unless you have magic guns that can shoot off grid. What you have there is a 1v2.

The problem with offgrid boosting in general is power creep.

People keep arguing how it helps them soloing gatecamps and fighting superior numbers, but will people turn their offgrid alts off as soon as they're not fighting superior ships and numbers? I guess not.

Eventually, having a booster alt will divide characters interested in solo and small gang pvp in those having one and those not having one, making offgrid boosting alts a quasi-prerequisite to do either, since everyone will assume a solo pilot or small gang has one and properly blob them as a consequence.

Whilst it helps solo/small gang in the short run at the moment, it raises the entry barrier for successful solo and small gang pvp and thus, hurts that segment of the game in the long run.

Shame there is not any sov or hq related pvp mechanics. So the further you are in light years from your hq, the worse the gang bonuses are. At least for the top notch bonuses. Or even some that can be 'juiced' and fit on smaller ships then deteriorate over time catering to the smaller gang style of guerilla warfare. Dunno, just another terrible idea from the bad corner.

You sound desperate now.

I wouldn't consider it an effort "to drag them around". On the contrary - I think they're quite useful as a cov ops scout with increased survivability compared to a cov ops frig due to more EHP and an interdiction nullifier.



Either I already have a safespot in a system i roam in or I want to make at least a couple on the run before I even jump the cavalry into the system.

A cloaked interdiction nullified T3 is perfect for that. It's not an "effort", it's something I'd even use over the cov ops frigs I used to use before the introduction of T3s if I couldn't fit gang links on it.

Welcome to eve. Most people are not going to turn off their boosts for a 1v1 just so they get a fair fight and more adrenaline. Hell I admit that if I start using the alt I am working on I will not do that either any more than if a frigate engages my cruiser i won't off line a mid slot mod.

That is why what Baron vonDoom said is already happening in groups that do allot of small gang and solo pvp like faction war. Everyone needs to bring your booster alt to a plex or don't bother fighting for it. I'm not saying it happens in every system but it definetely happens in a few systems already. And the number of systems is growing.

They can do that now but its easy to see they are doing that. So they get a reputation for it, and find they get very few fights after that. Plus since these ships have to be on grid people can bait them and kill their rr or falcon.

Booster ships are like remote reps that arent even on grid so its hard to know they are even there.

I absolutely agree that there has to be any advatage to bring smaller numbers instead of a blob - be it mass-based spool timers on gates or anything else.

I think it's a historical thing - band of devs owned goons using bigger ships and T2, goons took over, monopolized the T2 market and called for nerfs to anything big.

Bigger numbers remained entirely unaffected by this and helped any meaningful pvp to become the brainless 'ctrl+click broadcast list, hit F1' fiasco we currently have.

Yes - offgrid boosting is an equalizer for the numberwise over-exponential fleet effectivity we curently face, but hurts even smaller/newer groups way more.

By keeping it for the time being, you're killing off an entire generation of new eve pilots that didn't join via SA forums.

Or they just make it on-grid as the "boost" to blobs will be barely noticable.

P.S: More examples of how the blob is catastrophically boosted pls

Any numbers limit you put on ingame fleets will easily be circumvented breaking down the fleet into multiple small gangs, neglecting any disadaventage using OOG comms. Hence your proposal is naive and futile.

Nevertheless, offgrid boosting hurts the smallest guy first and is flat out a wrong and abusive mechanic. I can live with a complete removal of any gangboosts, but offgrid boosting has to die.


(And in case I didn't mention it before, I have 2 characters with close to perfect leadership skills (never really bothered with information warfare links), CS V and flying multiple T3s with all subsystems @ V).

it will happen, just like this idiotic highsec flagging system they want to bring in so the wow community can feel safe. Dramatize the thing enough, make it sound much worse than it is, an CCP will fold EVERY SINGLE TIME.....They know this, an even mission runners have caught onto the fact now that CCP will bend over backwards if you just make enough of a stink on forums. had 2 guys in Scope yesterday said ninjas should be banned for life an they wanted it like miners where they cant be effected by "griefers"...

SO the off grid booster nerf.... yer, it's coming.

For most of us, its never been an issue, but the minority who dont like it, an want things all cuddles an flowers, will make it sound much more dramatic.

Does the WoW community cry about EVE players this much?

I'd say that 80% of the time that Eve comes up in game design discussions, the WOW players are like "WTF, those guys are ******* nuts and all of them should be locked up under the jail..."

-Liang

As for calling people "carebears", no I dont. carebears are just a silly notion made up some idiot. But I do think you new exactly what you were getting when you signed up to EVE. Demanding it be changed to suit your obliviously "safer" idea of what EVE should be is just flat out stupid.

Your sole argument is "because I would unsub".

And your suggestions are basically to nerf boosting in different ways, so, I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make?

Then at the end you say "stop thinking about your play style" yet half your idea is clearly geared up to your play style.... off-grid boosting is fine so long as its just for a small number of players and after that you are a "noob blobber" and must use a CS on-grid. What?

if I am readning this right, you want 1v1 "fair" fights ?... boosting is just fine as it is. You should remember that there is no such thing as 1v1 an "fair" fights. You do what it takes to win no matter what, end always justifys the means so to speak.

EG...
If I had to bridge 15 Avatars to kill your one vexor, I would do it because it means winning....

I'm pretty sure they're too busy enjoying the most popular MMO in the history of MMOs to give a **** about what some whiny space-douches think.

It makes it easier to read the posts when you're looking at them?

How can you read the forums when your avatar is looking the completely wrong way?

edit: You're asking me about my avatar when just above my previous post sits the most hideous space-creature in all of EVE?

And from your other thread....



Yeah so you want to make a big tough-guy thread about people who fail but when someone does it back to you you get all defensive.



Stop patronising me.

Certainly not, but what's annoying is people claiming that it's hard or risky to use multiple screens and hit dscan every 30 s on one of them, claiming it's a risk to fly an OGB. Who are these people?

Cats licking their own balls?

OP hardly ever did any pvp outside highsec, so his claims aren't surprising - especially the ones where he claims to solo-counter nullsec blobs...

It doesn't matter. This is a grunt alt that wasn't subbed for the best part of the last 3 years. However, you are a highsec pubbie claiming to counter nullsec blobs whilst screwing over RvB newbs with a little help from your OG booster.

Pathetic.

Haha, you're right, cause 4 "people" in the span of 5 minutes found your evidence-less post about me and Diesel being the same dude worthy of a "Like". Keep flailing.

proof you're a paranoid nutjob.

Here - have a like - I wasn't even aware there was such a function on the forums...

I have cleaned this thread of a lot of off topic, troll and personal attack posts. Take very careful note that this kind of behaviour has no place on these forums and they are in fact a breach of the forum rules. If some of you have forgotten what those rules are, please go here and refresh your memories.

A good discussion about changes to the game is always welcome and can be a great deal of fun to read, I for one love to sit and look through all the ideas that players come up with. So please, lets try and remain civil, have a great discussion and leave the insults elsewhere ok? Thank you - ISD Type40.

So - regardless of the OP having been sufficiently discredited as a noob-blobbing highsec-bear, this thread holds some potential.

How would you make solo/small gang viable in this game without blobbing or fags bootisng with alts?

I'm quite aware of that, hence I'm hoping for some cosntructive discusion with people having some basic experience, so I'd appreciate you not posting anymore.

Thank you.

Edit: Absolutely not meant as an insult, but you clearly have neither experience nor a clue considering eve, so please refrain from posting unless it's really as bad as your OGB posts (they're quite cute ) ;).

I didn't read the thread, is there anything interesting apart from the OP's delusional hopes that a broken mechanic working in his favor won't eventually be fixed?

Now **** off back to college and let proper people talk.

A lot of bullshit posting for a nub hiding in jita 4-4 and behind an NPC corp.

thsi diesel guy is -EDIT- complete -EDIT-

No personal attacks, Please. - ISD Tyrozan

[

CCP is a business, and as such won't ban "macroers" and "bots", as they're all paid for accounts.

I heard that a lot from the tinfoil brigade, who harped on about how CCP prefered subs over everything else.

-Entitlement over "I spent over a year training this alt, of course I deserve to be superior".