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Noctis - The End of Ninja Salvaging?

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GunsABlazn	Posted - 2010.12.30 13:58:00 - [1] Edited by: GunsABlazn on 30/12/2010 14:02:59 Edited by: GunsABlazn on 30/12/2010 13:58:57 For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. But, the "Noctis" is a pretty convenient way of silently ending that debate. Let me explain. Let's stretch our imagination and say that I am a ninja salvager - just for the sake of argument, of course. I have a really fast ship with multiple salvagers on it - again, just for the sake of argument here. Now let's say a "Noctis" shows up. With a 60% increase in tractor beam range, a (?%) increase in salvaging speed and fit for max. speed this "Noctis" is now able to clean house in a matter of minutes. Meanwhile the poor little ninja salvager is running around chasing wrecks and trying to get them before the "Noctis" can. In short, once a "Noctis" shows up it's pretty much over for the ninja salvager. They might get a few wrecks here and there but not really enough to take the time to continue salvaging that particular mission. So, two questions: 1) Will the "Noctis" put a slow end to ninja salvaging? 2) Should CCP develop a ship with a salvaging speed increase that tops that of the Noctis? P.S. I WILL be getting a Noctis, just so you know. I don't want people answering with "Just get a Noctis for the salvager bonus and fit it for speed." I have had some conversations with some people and it just seemed like the "Noctis" was given TOO much to combat ninja salvaging. What do you think? Thank you very much for your time... this is not a whine or complaint, btw. I'm just curious what other people think about the arrival of the "Noctis" as it relates to the future of "ninja salvaging". Thanks again.
Ivana Twinkle GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:07:00 - [2] And what would stop ninja salvagers from using Noctis too? probe out stuff first, then warp in with noctis. ---
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:09:00 - [3] It won't put an end to ninja salvaging and since it is the specialized salvaging vessel, it might be hard to justify an even faster salvaging speed on any other vessel. You have to keep in mind, that the ninja salvage "problem" is largely due to people trying to maximize their efficiency when doing something. They could have always salvaged as they do a mission, but it often was and still is more efficient to focus on killing and come back and salvage on a different vessel. It has always also been possible to just shoot the wrecks before the ninja salvages them and shooting the wreck is faster than even the noctis, so you aren't changing the big picture in a way that threatens ninja salvaging in any significant way.
Aeronwen Carys	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:11:00 - [4] Originally by: Ivana Twinkle And what would stop ninja salvagers from using Noctis too? probe out stuff first, then warp in with noctis. Erm, you can't tractor wrecks that aren't yours maybe? Making the Noctis useless to ninjas.
Akeirah	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:13:00 - [5] Edited by: Akeirah on 30/12/2010 14:12:52 Got beat to it
Splastastic	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:16:00 - [6] Quote: For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. (Replying to obvious bait) Yes, this is being solved a few times a week, wrecks != yours. Nano Noctis > Random ninja salvager ship?
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:17:00 - [7] Originally by: GunsABlazn 1) Will the "Noctis" put a slow end to ninja salvaging? 2) Should CCP develop a ship with a salvaging speed increase that tops that of the Noctis? 1) No, the ninja salvaging profession probably has been hurt a little, but there are still people who don't salvage their missions. 2) No, a faster salvaging speed is not that useful (plus we're running against the limits of the human with a noctis fitted with 6 tractors and 2 salvagers) so no need to do so. In summary, I don't see a problem here.
CHEERWlNE	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:35:00 - [8] Originally by: Aeronwen Carys Erm, you can't tractor wrecks that aren't yours maybe? Making the Noctis useless to ninjas. Last time I tried, I could tractor other people's wrecks - did it change?
King Gore The Church of Sentcha	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:43:00 - [9] Edited by: King Gore on 30/12/2010 14:43:03 Originally by: CHEERWlNE Originally by: Aeronwen Carys Erm, you can't tractor wrecks that aren't yours maybe? Making the Noctis useless to ninjas. Last time I tried, I could tractor other people's wrecks - did it change? You can't tractor other people's wrecks because they're not yours. - #DEVOUR#
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:49:00 - [10] Originally by: CHEERWlNE Last time I tried, I could tractor other people's wrecks - did it change? You can tractor wrecks belonging to you, your fleetmates, and (I think) your corpmates. No-one else's.
Fulbert Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Ivana Twinkle And what would stop ninja salvagers from using Noctis too? You cannot use tractor beams on wrecks that don't belong to you. So the Noctis will salvage 3 times faster than any ninja ship, especially ninja Noctis (slow ship + no beams = no ninja salvage). -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:54:00 - [12] Originally by: GunsABlazn For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. snip After the introduction of salvaging there was A TIME OF ABOUT 3-6 MONTHS were the wrecks belonged to the one shooting the rats and people didn't salvage (dangerous, I remember myself running from flashy people several times) and rigs were expensive. CCP didn't like that and so the wreckage became FFA, so that anyone who bothered could salvage them without the danger of being shoot at. Now rig prices began to fall and CCP was happy. As time flew by the ones shooting rats (reeaallly clever people, I tell ya) recognise that they could make real hard cash from those salvage if they would have the sole monopoly on it, they want the wheel of time turned back. support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX
KaarBaak Minmatar Seatec Astronomy	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:54:00 - [13] Originally by: King Gore Edited by: King Gore on 30/12/2010 14:43:03 Originally by: CHEERWlNE Originally by: Aeronwen Carys Erm, you can't tractor wrecks that aren't yours maybe? Making the Noctis useless to ninjas. Last time I tried, I could tractor other people's wrecks - did it change? You can't tractor other people's wrecks because they're not yours. I've always wondered why the "you shouldn't be able to salvage my wrecks" crowd hasn't pounced on this tidbit before? It is a bit inconsistent with the "you don't own the wreck, just the loot" concept, isn't it? KB Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances. --Herodotus, Histories
stoicfaux Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:02:00 - [14] Originally by: GunsABlazn Meanwhile the poor little ninja salvager is running around chasing wrecks and trying to get them before the "Noctis" can. Unless, of course, the ninja salvager shows up in a Noctis with a full set of salvagers and orbits your Nocits in a race to determine who can start their salvagers first. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
GunsABlazn	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:05:00 - [15] Originally by: Tasko Pal Originally by: GunsABlazn 1) Will the "Noctis" put a slow end to ninja salvaging? 2) Should CCP develop a ship with a salvaging speed increase that tops that of the Noctis? 1) No, the ninja salvaging profession probably has been hurt a little, but there are still people who don't salvage their missions. 2) No, a faster salvaging speed is not that useful (plus we're running against the limits of the human with a noctis fitted with 6 tractors and 2 salvagers) so no need to do so. In summary, I don't see a problem here. I think the main reason people did not salvage their missions was the time that it took to do so. Now that they have a "Noctis" the time issue has become somewhat mute - it is a salvaging "beast". Since it's inception into the market, there have been 3,507 "Noctis" sold, just in the Heimatar region alone. While I can't prove that the number equals an increase in people who are salvaging their missions, I CAN say that the number increases the likelihood that players/corps that once saw no added benefit to salvaging their wrecks are at least trying it out. As one of the people I talked to said: "I didn't think that I wanted one, but then a friend of mine loaned his to me and I was hooked." This kind of progression would lead me to believe that, say a year from now, the ratio of people who don't salvage their missions:the people that do will have shifted dramatically from what it was just a little over a month ago. Point being, the number of people that don't salvage their own missions will be few and far between, imo.
Phrana2	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Splastastic Quote: For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. (Replying to obvious bait) Yes, this is being solved a few times a week, wrecks != yours. Nano Noctis > Random ninja salvager ship? Sorry, this was in reference to "criminal tagging". The argument is whether or not salvaging a wreck that did not result from your "pew pew" actions should be a criminal offence. Just to clear that up.
Drykor Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: GunsABlazn For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. snip After the introduction of salvaging there was A TIME OF ABOUT 3-6 MONTHS were the wrecks belonged to the one shooting the rats and people didn't salvage (dangerous, I remember myself running from flashy people several times) and rigs were expensive. CCP didn't like that and so the wreckage became FFA, so that anyone who bothered could salvage them without the danger of being shoot at. Now rig prices began to fall and CCP was happy. As time flew by the ones shooting rats (reeaallly clever people, I tell ya) recognise that they could make real hard cash from those salvage if they would have the sole monopoly on it, they want the wheel of time turned back. Almost 100% sure salvage has always been free for all.

CCP StevieSG	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:14:00 - [18] Moved to Ships and Modules from EVE General.

Ashley Sky Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:26:00 - [19] The answer this is easy. Switch to ninja ratting. Kill the mission runner's rats and take the bounties, which are worth more than the salvage. If he's slow at getting his Noctis out, I have a faction fitted Dramiel that I use for ninja salvaging. It flies 5x as fast as a tractor beam. I have all my salvage skills trained to L5s, so I can almost keep up with the noctis.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:34:00 - [20] On one hand, im thinking i just park next to the Noctis and say thankyou for bringing the salvage to me instead of making me chase it. On the other hand, im thinking, mission complete? Are the spacelanes finally being cleared of all the space debris and rubbish. Is it finally time to hang up our ninja salvaging boots and comtemplate a job well done? meh, i think option one. Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Saile Litestrider	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:38:00 - [21] I don't know about you guys, and I'm definitely no professional ninja salvager, but I've personally been able to out-salvage a Noctis in an AB/salvager vigil. Sure, it got most of the medium and small wrecks, but I was able to snap up every large wreck, even outrunning them as they were being tractored in. At worst, I'd say it's the death of the low skill point ninja salvager, and that problem will be mostly solved in a few days or weeks.
Dark Piper Inter-Solar Solutions	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:41:00 - [22] Isnt one of the main reasons for ninja salvagers is to get the pew pew rights on those mission runners and their nice 'shiny' boats? You know the ones..........those who think that they can pop the ninja from stealing his stuff and teach him a lesson and then get bbqwtfwnd two minutes later? Noctis is around 50mil isk a piece. Kind of expensive piece of gear just to get kill rights, no?
Captain Megadeath	Posted - 2010.12.30 16:31:00 - [23] Ninja-salvager tears, best tears. Your stuff (+ the looted stuff), I haz? Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails my name actually is short for catherine Yeah, Katie Door perhaps...... lol
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.30 17:11:00 - [24] Originally by: GunsABlazn some sad story and tears on how ninja salvagers aren't collecting tears no mo' How ironic that tear collectors are left to collect their own tears . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.30 17:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Drykor Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: GunsABlazn For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. snip After the introduction of salvaging there was A TIME OF ABOUT 3-6 MONTHS were the wrecks belonged to the one shooting the rats and people didn't salvage (dangerous, I remember myself running from flashy people several times) and rigs were expensive. CCP didn't like that and so the wreckage became FFA, so that anyone who bothered could salvage them without the danger of being shoot at. Now rig prices began to fall and CCP was happy. As time flew by the ones shooting rats (reeaallly clever people, I tell ya) recognise that they could make real hard cash from those salvage if they would have the sole monopoly on it, they want the wheel of time turned back. Almost 100% sure salvage has always been free for all. it has. originally, you had to empty the wreck to salvage it. this was unpopular; you'd run into the time limit on making jet cans, or quickly fill your hold with junk, or have to fit tractor as well as salvager, so you could tow a can behind you. so it was changed, and the ninja salvage mechanic became possible. anticipating the lols to follow, ccp quickly dubbed this a mini-profession, and has steadfastly refused to change it, since they love player tears as much as the next guy..
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui	Posted - 2010.12.30 18:20:00 - [26] Edited by: Tarunik Raqalth''Qui on 30/12/2010 18:20:54 What I think we'll see is missioners either: Training an alt up for a Noctis and using the alt to loot/salvage their missions, or Teaming up with a friend/corpmate (possibly one much less well-off ISK-wise than them) who is able to fly the Noctis. The missioner is able to pull in LP/bounties at a high rate (not quite as high as a pure blitzer, but still a very good rate), while the salvager cleans the field, getting a good return on investment himself from the salvage and loot. Both are valid approaches; if I ran lvl4s for a living, I'd probably do the second as it's 1) nicer to newbies (now they can earn some nice money legitimately while my own isk/hr rate isn't suffering for much of anything either) and 2) doesn't require the sometimes-tricky art of multiboxing. There are also two styles of salvaging: Wing-salvaging, where the salvager and missioner are in the same fleet/corp and the salvager flies in right after the missioner pulls aggro on the room and cleans up wrecks as the missioner gets kills. This is slightly more efficient for the missioner (as he doesn't have to abandon wrecks or deal with bookmarking pockets) and also lends itself better to dualboxing. However, it does run the risk of the salvager pulling rat aggro inadvertently (say, if a wave spawns unexpectedly) and doesn't work well with mission blitzes. Bounties also can get split between the two pilots in this case, which can be a bit problematic on missions where most of the value lies in the bounties. Bookmark/trailing salvaging, where the salvager "trails behind" the missioner, receiving bookmarks to pockets full of abandoned wrecks which he then warps to and loots/salvages. This has the advantage that it avoids issues with bounty splitting or rats shooting at your salvage ship. However, it means the missioner has to remember to bookmark the deadspace pockets and abandon the wrecks before he turns in the mission and then contract those bookmarks over to the salvager when he hits station, cutting into his ISK/hr slightly. This style tends to work better when you have a friend or especially a fellow corporation member salvaging (as in the latter case, you don't have to abandon the wrecks). It also has the advantage in that the missioner can be selective in what missions he has the salvager salvage (for instance, Rogue Drone missions aren't really conducive to this scheme, and some missions are so poor in value that they should just be blitzed anyway). Either way, I think we'll see a slow decline in ninja salvaging for ISK, replaced by people who take up salvaging as a legitimate profession and "team up" with missioners, allowing for a "win-win" scenario (in other words, generosity pays off in this case). The other variety of ninja tends to wind up either a) chasing tractored wrecks around, hoping to catch one or b) disappointed and unable to pull his aggression countdown as all the wrecks in the pocket get abandoned. (That's if they don't go "bah" and warp out looking for juicier prey.)
Kraal Jarik	Posted - 2010.12.30 18:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Jovan Geldon Originally by: CHEERWlNE Last time I tried, I could tractor other people's wrecks - did it change? You can tractor wrecks belonging to you, your fleetmates, and (I think) your corpmates. No-one else's. So you want to "ninja" salvage friendlies? That isn't salvaging (let alone "ninja"), that's participating in the mission.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.30 19:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Skippermonkey On one hand, im thinking i just park next to the Noctis and say thankyou for bringing the salvage to me instead of making me chase it. This is what I'd do. I guarantee I'll salvage faster than him simply because he has tractors fit and I don't. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.30 21:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Skippermonkey On one hand, im thinking i just park next to the Noctis and say thankyou for bringing the salvage to me instead of making me chase it. This is what I'd do. I guarantee I'll salvage faster than him simply because he has tractors fit and I don't. -Liang On the other hand, he has a 7.5û8s salvage cycle time, and you don't. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.12.30 21:37:00 - [30] the ninja can go around and salvage while the mission runner is still in their combat ship. and 1 salvager at increased speed, well if it misses on the first cycle, the ninja gets a cycle of however many salvagers they have, chances aren't all that bad for the ninja. either way both are pretty pathetic fighting over wrecks so meh

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