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Noctis - The End of Ninja Salvaging?

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GunsABlazn	Posted - 2010.12.30 13:58:00 - [1] Edited by: GunsABlazn on 30/12/2010 14:02:59 Edited by: GunsABlazn on 30/12/2010 13:58:57 For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. But, the "Noctis" is a pretty convenient way of silently ending that debate. Let me explain. Let's stretch our imagination and say that I am a ninja salvager - just for the sake of argument, of course. I have a really fast ship with multiple salvagers on it - again, just for the sake of argument here. Now let's say a "Noctis" shows up. With a 60% increase in tractor beam range, a (?%) increase in salvaging speed and fit for max. speed this "Noctis" is now able to clean house in a matter of minutes. Meanwhile the poor little ninja salvager is running around chasing wrecks and trying to get them before the "Noctis" can. In short, once a "Noctis" shows up it's pretty much over for the ninja salvager. They might get a few wrecks here and there but not really enough to take the time to continue salvaging that particular mission. So, two questions: 1) Will the "Noctis" put a slow end to ninja salvaging? 2) Should CCP develop a ship with a salvaging speed increase that tops that of the Noctis? P.S. I WILL be getting a Noctis, just so you know. I don't want people answering with "Just get a Noctis for the salvager bonus and fit it for speed." I have had some conversations with some people and it just seemed like the "Noctis" was given TOO much to combat ninja salvaging. What do you think? Thank you very much for your time... this is not a whine or complaint, btw. I'm just curious what other people think about the arrival of the "Noctis" as it relates to the future of "ninja salvaging". Thanks again.
Ivana Twinkle GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:07:00 - [2] And what would stop ninja salvagers from using Noctis too? probe out stuff first, then warp in with noctis. ---
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:09:00 - [3] It won't put an end to ninja salvaging and since it is the specialized salvaging vessel, it might be hard to justify an even faster salvaging speed on any other vessel. You have to keep in mind, that the ninja salvage "problem" is largely due to people trying to maximize their efficiency when doing something. They could have always salvaged as they do a mission, but it often was and still is more efficient to focus on killing and come back and salvage on a different vessel. It has always also been possible to just shoot the wrecks before the ninja salvages them and shooting the wreck is faster than even the noctis, so you aren't changing the big picture in a way that threatens ninja salvaging in any significant way.
Aeronwen Carys	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:11:00 - [4] Originally by: Ivana Twinkle And what would stop ninja salvagers from using Noctis too? probe out stuff first, then warp in with noctis. Erm, you can't tractor wrecks that aren't yours maybe? Making the Noctis useless to ninjas.
Akeirah	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:13:00 - [5] Edited by: Akeirah on 30/12/2010 14:12:52 Got beat to it
Splastastic	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:16:00 - [6] Quote: For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. (Replying to obvious bait) Yes, this is being solved a few times a week, wrecks != yours. Nano Noctis > Random ninja salvager ship?
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:17:00 - [7] Originally by: GunsABlazn 1) Will the "Noctis" put a slow end to ninja salvaging? 2) Should CCP develop a ship with a salvaging speed increase that tops that of the Noctis? 1) No, the ninja salvaging profession probably has been hurt a little, but there are still people who don't salvage their missions. 2) No, a faster salvaging speed is not that useful (plus we're running against the limits of the human with a noctis fitted with 6 tractors and 2 salvagers) so no need to do so. In summary, I don't see a problem here.
CHEERWlNE	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:35:00 - [8] Originally by: Aeronwen Carys Erm, you can't tractor wrecks that aren't yours maybe? Making the Noctis useless to ninjas. Last time I tried, I could tractor other people's wrecks - did it change?
King Gore The Church of Sentcha	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:43:00 - [9] Edited by: King Gore on 30/12/2010 14:43:03 Originally by: CHEERWlNE Originally by: Aeronwen Carys Erm, you can't tractor wrecks that aren't yours maybe? Making the Noctis useless to ninjas. Last time I tried, I could tractor other people's wrecks - did it change? You can't tractor other people's wrecks because they're not yours. - #DEVOUR#
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:49:00 - [10] Originally by: CHEERWlNE Last time I tried, I could tractor other people's wrecks - did it change? You can tractor wrecks belonging to you, your fleetmates, and (I think) your corpmates. No-one else's.
Fulbert Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Ivana Twinkle And what would stop ninja salvagers from using Noctis too? You cannot use tractor beams on wrecks that don't belong to you. So the Noctis will salvage 3 times faster than any ninja ship, especially ninja Noctis (slow ship + no beams = no ninja salvage). -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:54:00 - [12] Originally by: GunsABlazn For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. snip After the introduction of salvaging there was A TIME OF ABOUT 3-6 MONTHS were the wrecks belonged to the one shooting the rats and people didn't salvage (dangerous, I remember myself running from flashy people several times) and rigs were expensive. CCP didn't like that and so the wreckage became FFA, so that anyone who bothered could salvage them without the danger of being shoot at. Now rig prices began to fall and CCP was happy. As time flew by the ones shooting rats (reeaallly clever people, I tell ya) recognise that they could make real hard cash from those salvage if they would have the sole monopoly on it, they want the wheel of time turned back. support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX
KaarBaak Minmatar Seatec Astronomy	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:54:00 - [13] Originally by: King Gore Edited by: King Gore on 30/12/2010 14:43:03 Originally by: CHEERWlNE Originally by: Aeronwen Carys Erm, you can't tractor wrecks that aren't yours maybe? Making the Noctis useless to ninjas. Last time I tried, I could tractor other people's wrecks - did it change? You can't tractor other people's wrecks because they're not yours. I've always wondered why the "you shouldn't be able to salvage my wrecks" crowd hasn't pounced on this tidbit before? It is a bit inconsistent with the "you don't own the wreck, just the loot" concept, isn't it? KB Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances. --Herodotus, Histories
stoicfaux Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:02:00 - [14] Originally by: GunsABlazn Meanwhile the poor little ninja salvager is running around chasing wrecks and trying to get them before the "Noctis" can. Unless, of course, the ninja salvager shows up in a Noctis with a full set of salvagers and orbits your Nocits in a race to determine who can start their salvagers first. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
GunsABlazn	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:05:00 - [15] Originally by: Tasko Pal Originally by: GunsABlazn 1) Will the "Noctis" put a slow end to ninja salvaging? 2) Should CCP develop a ship with a salvaging speed increase that tops that of the Noctis? 1) No, the ninja salvaging profession probably has been hurt a little, but there are still people who don't salvage their missions. 2) No, a faster salvaging speed is not that useful (plus we're running against the limits of the human with a noctis fitted with 6 tractors and 2 salvagers) so no need to do so. In summary, I don't see a problem here. I think the main reason people did not salvage their missions was the time that it took to do so. Now that they have a "Noctis" the time issue has become somewhat mute - it is a salvaging "beast". Since it's inception into the market, there have been 3,507 "Noctis" sold, just in the Heimatar region alone. While I can't prove that the number equals an increase in people who are salvaging their missions, I CAN say that the number increases the likelihood that players/corps that once saw no added benefit to salvaging their wrecks are at least trying it out. As one of the people I talked to said: "I didn't think that I wanted one, but then a friend of mine loaned his to me and I was hooked." This kind of progression would lead me to believe that, say a year from now, the ratio of people who don't salvage their missions:the people that do will have shifted dramatically from what it was just a little over a month ago. Point being, the number of people that don't salvage their own missions will be few and far between, imo.
Phrana2	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Splastastic Quote: For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. (Replying to obvious bait) Yes, this is being solved a few times a week, wrecks != yours. Nano Noctis > Random ninja salvager ship? Sorry, this was in reference to "criminal tagging". The argument is whether or not salvaging a wreck that did not result from your "pew pew" actions should be a criminal offence. Just to clear that up.
Drykor Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: GunsABlazn For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. snip After the introduction of salvaging there was A TIME OF ABOUT 3-6 MONTHS were the wrecks belonged to the one shooting the rats and people didn't salvage (dangerous, I remember myself running from flashy people several times) and rigs were expensive. CCP didn't like that and so the wreckage became FFA, so that anyone who bothered could salvage them without the danger of being shoot at. Now rig prices began to fall and CCP was happy. As time flew by the ones shooting rats (reeaallly clever people, I tell ya) recognise that they could make real hard cash from those salvage if they would have the sole monopoly on it, they want the wheel of time turned back. Almost 100% sure salvage has always been free for all.

CCP StevieSG	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:14:00 - [18] Moved to Ships and Modules from EVE General.

Ashley Sky Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:26:00 - [19] The answer this is easy. Switch to ninja ratting. Kill the mission runner's rats and take the bounties, which are worth more than the salvage. If he's slow at getting his Noctis out, I have a faction fitted Dramiel that I use for ninja salvaging. It flies 5x as fast as a tractor beam. I have all my salvage skills trained to L5s, so I can almost keep up with the noctis.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:34:00 - [20] On one hand, im thinking i just park next to the Noctis and say thankyou for bringing the salvage to me instead of making me chase it. On the other hand, im thinking, mission complete? Are the spacelanes finally being cleared of all the space debris and rubbish. Is it finally time to hang up our ninja salvaging boots and comtemplate a job well done? meh, i think option one. Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Saile Litestrider	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:38:00 - [21] I don't know about you guys, and I'm definitely no professional ninja salvager, but I've personally been able to out-salvage a Noctis in an AB/salvager vigil. Sure, it got most of the medium and small wrecks, but I was able to snap up every large wreck, even outrunning them as they were being tractored in. At worst, I'd say it's the death of the low skill point ninja salvager, and that problem will be mostly solved in a few days or weeks.
Dark Piper Inter-Solar Solutions	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:41:00 - [22] Isnt one of the main reasons for ninja salvagers is to get the pew pew rights on those mission runners and their nice 'shiny' boats? You know the ones..........those who think that they can pop the ninja from stealing his stuff and teach him a lesson and then get bbqwtfwnd two minutes later? Noctis is around 50mil isk a piece. Kind of expensive piece of gear just to get kill rights, no?
Captain Megadeath	Posted - 2010.12.30 16:31:00 - [23] Ninja-salvager tears, best tears. Your stuff (+ the looted stuff), I haz? Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails my name actually is short for catherine Yeah, Katie Door perhaps...... lol
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.30 17:11:00 - [24] Originally by: GunsABlazn some sad story and tears on how ninja salvagers aren't collecting tears no mo' How ironic that tear collectors are left to collect their own tears . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.30 17:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Drykor Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: GunsABlazn For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. snip After the introduction of salvaging there was A TIME OF ABOUT 3-6 MONTHS were the wrecks belonged to the one shooting the rats and people didn't salvage (dangerous, I remember myself running from flashy people several times) and rigs were expensive. CCP didn't like that and so the wreckage became FFA, so that anyone who bothered could salvage them without the danger of being shoot at. Now rig prices began to fall and CCP was happy. As time flew by the ones shooting rats (reeaallly clever people, I tell ya) recognise that they could make real hard cash from those salvage if they would have the sole monopoly on it, they want the wheel of time turned back. Almost 100% sure salvage has always been free for all. it has. originally, you had to empty the wreck to salvage it. this was unpopular; you'd run into the time limit on making jet cans, or quickly fill your hold with junk, or have to fit tractor as well as salvager, so you could tow a can behind you. so it was changed, and the ninja salvage mechanic became possible. anticipating the lols to follow, ccp quickly dubbed this a mini-profession, and has steadfastly refused to change it, since they love player tears as much as the next guy..
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui	Posted - 2010.12.30 18:20:00 - [26] Edited by: Tarunik Raqalth''Qui on 30/12/2010 18:20:54 What I think we'll see is missioners either: Training an alt up for a Noctis and using the alt to loot/salvage their missions, or Teaming up with a friend/corpmate (possibly one much less well-off ISK-wise than them) who is able to fly the Noctis. The missioner is able to pull in LP/bounties at a high rate (not quite as high as a pure blitzer, but still a very good rate), while the salvager cleans the field, getting a good return on investment himself from the salvage and loot. Both are valid approaches; if I ran lvl4s for a living, I'd probably do the second as it's 1) nicer to newbies (now they can earn some nice money legitimately while my own isk/hr rate isn't suffering for much of anything either) and 2) doesn't require the sometimes-tricky art of multiboxing. There are also two styles of salvaging: Wing-salvaging, where the salvager and missioner are in the same fleet/corp and the salvager flies in right after the missioner pulls aggro on the room and cleans up wrecks as the missioner gets kills. This is slightly more efficient for the missioner (as he doesn't have to abandon wrecks or deal with bookmarking pockets) and also lends itself better to dualboxing. However, it does run the risk of the salvager pulling rat aggro inadvertently (say, if a wave spawns unexpectedly) and doesn't work well with mission blitzes. Bounties also can get split between the two pilots in this case, which can be a bit problematic on missions where most of the value lies in the bounties. Bookmark/trailing salvaging, where the salvager "trails behind" the missioner, receiving bookmarks to pockets full of abandoned wrecks which he then warps to and loots/salvages. This has the advantage that it avoids issues with bounty splitting or rats shooting at your salvage ship. However, it means the missioner has to remember to bookmark the deadspace pockets and abandon the wrecks before he turns in the mission and then contract those bookmarks over to the salvager when he hits station, cutting into his ISK/hr slightly. This style tends to work better when you have a friend or especially a fellow corporation member salvaging (as in the latter case, you don't have to abandon the wrecks). It also has the advantage in that the missioner can be selective in what missions he has the salvager salvage (for instance, Rogue Drone missions aren't really conducive to this scheme, and some missions are so poor in value that they should just be blitzed anyway). Either way, I think we'll see a slow decline in ninja salvaging for ISK, replaced by people who take up salvaging as a legitimate profession and "team up" with missioners, allowing for a "win-win" scenario (in other words, generosity pays off in this case). The other variety of ninja tends to wind up either a) chasing tractored wrecks around, hoping to catch one or b) disappointed and unable to pull his aggression countdown as all the wrecks in the pocket get abandoned. (That's if they don't go "bah" and warp out looking for juicier prey.)
Kraal Jarik	Posted - 2010.12.30 18:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Jovan Geldon Originally by: CHEERWlNE Last time I tried, I could tractor other people's wrecks - did it change? You can tractor wrecks belonging to you, your fleetmates, and (I think) your corpmates. No-one else's. So you want to "ninja" salvage friendlies? That isn't salvaging (let alone "ninja"), that's participating in the mission.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.30 19:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Skippermonkey On one hand, im thinking i just park next to the Noctis and say thankyou for bringing the salvage to me instead of making me chase it. This is what I'd do. I guarantee I'll salvage faster than him simply because he has tractors fit and I don't. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.30 21:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Skippermonkey On one hand, im thinking i just park next to the Noctis and say thankyou for bringing the salvage to me instead of making me chase it. This is what I'd do. I guarantee I'll salvage faster than him simply because he has tractors fit and I don't. -Liang On the other hand, he has a 7.5û8s salvage cycle time, and you don't. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.12.30 21:37:00 - [30] the ninja can go around and salvage while the mission runner is still in their combat ship. and 1 salvager at increased speed, well if it misses on the first cycle, the ninja gets a cycle of however many salvagers they have, chances aren't all that bad for the ninja. either way both are pretty pathetic fighting over wrecks so meh
Okie Wren	Posted - 2010.12.30 21:50:00 - [31] Originally by: GunsABlazn For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. Yes it has. It was solved the moment CCP said "wrecks are no ones property and this is the way it will remain UNTIL THE END OF TIME". Seems pretty straight forward after that.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.30 22:16:00 - [32] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/12/2010 22:16:08 Originally by: Tarunik Raqalth'Qui What I think we'll see is missioners either: Training an alt up for a Noctis Teaming up with a friend/corpmate Buying a Marauder and getting 80% of the loot+salvage on top of mission blitz level income Fixed that up because you neglected the third option. Marauders >> Faction BS + Noctis. Quote: Either way, I think we'll see a slow decline in ninja salvaging for ISK I don't. Marauders didn't kill it, and the Noctis won't either. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Acrior	Posted - 2010.12.30 22:27:00 - [33] uh sit next to the noctis while it tractors in wrecks for you? You're faster and the noctis probably only has like 2 salvagers fitted so you can get at least 50% of the wrecks
Xzar Fyrarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.12.31 04:59:00 - [34] Hasn't stopped me. Don't salvage nearly as often anymore though. If a Noctis warps in, in all honesty, i zoom to Noctis and just wait next to him. Get whatever loot he is too slow to get. If I see the Noctis winning, I just warp to the next mission I scanne dout while salvaging. Not losing any time at all. Nor isk. ------------------------------------------------ One Cannot Fully Appreciate Peace Until They Have Experienced True Pain. ------------------------------------------------- - Xzar Fyrarr ;
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2010.12.31 09:41:00 - [35] Originally by: GunsABlazn As one of the people I talked to said: "I didn't think that I wanted one, but then a friend of mine loaned his to me and I was hooked." This kind of progression would lead me to believe that, say a year from now, the ratio of people who don't salvage their missions:the people that do will have shifted dramatically from what it was just a little over a month ago. Point being, the number of people that don't salvage their own missions will be few and far between, imo. You still have to hop in the noctis and warp out to the mission. This is one of the reasons I prefer the marauder. I won't come back for the other loot. I don't see it as worth my time. The marauder gives me the chance to cherry pick the good stuff.
Missy krunk	Posted - 2010.12.31 11:58:00 - [36] Originally by: Ashley Sky The answer this is easy. Switch to ninja ratting. Kill the mission runner's rats and take the bounties, which are worth more than the salvage. If he's slow at getting his Noctis out, I have a faction fitted Dramiel that I use for ninja salvaging. It flies 5x as fast as a tractor beam. I have all my salvage skills trained to L5s, so I can almost keep up with the noctis. I run my missions in t1 insured ships. I'd gank the hell out of the Dramiel if it showed up in my mission. Then salvage it with my alt.
GunsABlazn	Posted - 2010.12.31 14:25:00 - [37] Originally by: Tasko Pal Originally by: GunsABlazn As one of the people I talked to said: "I didn't think that I wanted one, but then a friend of mine loaned his to me and I was hooked." This kind of progression would lead me to believe that, say a year from now, the ratio of people who don't salvage their missions:the people that do will have shifted dramatically from what it was just a little over a month ago. Point being, the number of people that don't salvage their own missions will be few and far between, imo. You still have to hop in the noctis and warp out to the mission. This is one of the reasons I prefer the marauder. I won't come back for the other loot. I don't see it as worth my time. The marauder gives me the chance to cherry pick the good stuff. The Marauder is one of those ships that, if scanned out, I do not even bother with trying to get wrecks from because there just are not any to get. :) So, from what I've been hearing (and correct me if I am wrong), to combat the "Noctis" if you are a ninja salvager you: 1) Skill up (logical) 2) Sit right next to him/her and collect the wrecks that the Noctis' two salvager modules are just not enough to pick up Is that a fair assessment? Also, that you all for your responses, I was actually interested to find out how other people viewed the Noctis and its effect in the game. While it appears to have its advantages, the lack of salvager modules seems to not be as much of a blessing and I had originally thought that it was. Peace. Fly safe.
SabotNoob SWARTA Mostly Clueless	Posted - 2010.12.31 17:55:00 - [38] Originally by: GunsABlazn Originally by: Tasko Pal You still have to hop in the noctis and warp out to the mission. This is one of the reasons I prefer the marauder. I won't come back for the other loot. I don't see it as worth my time. The marauder gives me the chance to cherry pick the good stuff. The Marauder is one of those ships that, if scanned out, I do not even bother with trying to get wrecks from because there just are not any to get. :) Peace. Fly safe. That's why I dual box with a Noctis on my other account. I can mission pretty quick on my main account now and take enough aggro to bring in the Noctis without worrying for its safety. It's almost like missioning in a Marauder but with 4 Tractors and 4 Salvagers! Managing the two at the same time isn't that difficult and saves a lot of time from having to dock up and grab the Noctis and come back out again. So would a mission ship and Noctis setup on your probe results turn you away even more from ninja'ing? I'm guessing it would, if a Maraurder does. ____________________ Chuck Norris can win a game of Connect Four in three moves.
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2010.12.31 19:47:00 - [39] The so called "Noctis" (Wags 2 fingers each hand).
Hex'Caliber Gallente Massively Mob	Posted - 2011.01.01 12:19:00 - [40] Edited by: Hex''Caliber on 01/01/2011 12:26:47 Originally by: Splastastic Quote: For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. (Replying to obvious bait) Yes, this is being solved a few times a week, wrecks != yours. Nano Noctis > Random ninja salvager ship? Wrecks are owner flagged, see that yellow colour and the little picture when you check info, that is the owner flag muppet; but what they are not is aggro flagged. Loot cans were also flagged in this way, eventually having an aggro flag added. Anyone who ninjas mission wrecks and tries to justify it by saying the wrecks have no ownership is just a moron who doesn't know his arse from his elbow. For what it's worth, they have no aggro flag so that anyone can clean up wrecks during wars and other large-scale deaths. All those little wrecks have a temporary database id and ccp would rather see them cleared up by someone than sit there hogging space on the db until they expire Regards HexCaliber, Mankinds greatest Strength and greatest weakness is hope.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.01 12:27:00 - [41] Originally by: Hex'Caliber Anyone who ninjas mission wrecks and tries to justify it by saying the wrecks have no ownership is just a moron who doesn't know his arse from his elbow. àexcept, of course, that this is exactly how the game works: the wreck has no ownership but the can inside it does ù so sayeth CCP. But yes, I suppose they are morons who don't know anything about it either. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Hex'Caliber Gallente Massively Mob	Posted - 2011.01.01 12:31:00 - [42] Edited by: Hex''Caliber on 01/01/2011 12:33:54 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 01/01/2011 12:29:03 Originally by: Hex'Caliber Anyone who ninjas mission wrecks and tries to justify it by saying the wrecks have no ownership is just a moron who doesn't know his arse from his elbow. àexcept, of course, that this is exactly how the game works: the wreck has no ownership but the can inside it does ù so sayeth CCP. But yes, I suppose they are morons who don't know anything about it either. Not that it matters anyway: the only use for the wrecks themselves is to turn them into salvage, and that salvage belongs to whomever actually did the work and salvaged the wreck. Ownership flag != aggro flag, even empty wrecks are owner flagged that's the whole point of assigning a colour and ident to every wreck, the system simply allows anyone to clear them up. Regards HexCaliber, Mankinds greatest Strength and greatest weakness is hope.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.01 12:38:00 - [43] Originally by: Hex'Caliber Ownership flag != aggro flag, even empty wrecks are owner flagged that's the whole point of assigning a colour and ident to every wreck, the system simply allows anyone to clear them up. Even empty wrecks contain a can ù the can is owned, the wreck is not. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Hex'Caliber Gallente Massively Mob	Posted - 2011.01.01 14:08:00 - [44] Edited by: Hex''Caliber on 01/01/2011 14:10:28 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Hex'Caliber Ownership flag != aggro flag, even empty wrecks are owner flagged that's the whole point of assigning a colour and ident to every wreck, the system simply allows anyone to clear them up. Even empty wrecks contain a can ù the can is owned, the wreck is not. Wrong again, a can does not exist until the wreck containing loot is salvaged leaving the items nowhere to go. Instead of pointless back and forth, when you show me how you tractor all those yellow wrecks that don't belong to "anyone" come back and we can talk some more. While we are waiting feel free to read the evolopeodia entry on ninja salavaging and tractor beams. Regards HexCaliber, Mankinds greatest Strength and greatest weakness is hope.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.01 16:50:00 - [45] CCP is brilliant. They put the Noctis in the game for good reasons. You get a noctis. It can salvage super fast. You still get ninja'd. You think (rationalize) "I could get an alt and it would thwart the ninja's and I would make enough to PLEX the second account". This might not be you but its a lot of people.
Chakarr Anarchistic Carebears Bloodbound.	Posted - 2011.01.01 20:27:00 - [46] No. 'Ninja Salvagers' is a misnomer, they are just griefers who want to engage in 'safe PVP' with mission runners who don't know any better. They seldom have any interesting actualy salvaging anything, if they do it's only to induce carebear tears... It's quite sad really Fake Edit - in before one of them labels my post as 'carebear tears'...bite me.
SheriffFruitfly Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.01 20:31:00 - [47] What do you call a wreck that isn't yours? NACHO WRECK! /me puts the mic down __________________________________________________________ Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.01 21:01:00 - [48] Originally by: Hex'Caliber Wrong again, a can does not exist until the wreck containing loot is salvaged leaving the items nowhere to go. Eh no. The can exists with or without a wreck to hold it. That's why you can open wrecks to begin with: because they have a container inside them. Quote: Instead of pointless back and forth, when you show me how you tractor all those yellow wrecks that don't belong to "anyone" come back and we can talk some more. You can't tractor yellow wrecks because they contain a can that belongs to someone else, and you're not allowed to tractor other people's property. Since you can't move the wreck without moving the can, and since you're not allowed to move the owned can, you can't move the wreck either. So, again: The wreck is no-one's property ù it's ffa junk floating in space. The can inside the wreck belongs toà whomever it belongs to ù NPC wrecks are an anomaly here since they don't belong to whomever owned the recently wrecked ship. The from a wreck belongs to whomever worked to produce the salvage, viz. the first person to finish a successful salvaging cycle on it. The whole confusion stems from the decision not to make wreck and can separate entities that drop from a destroyed ship. Of course, this confusion should quite easily be dispelled by the fact that CCP are saying "wrecks are free-for-all", but some people just refuse to listen to that particular statement. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Acrior	Posted - 2011.01.01 22:49:00 - [49] Originally by: Chakarr No. 'Ninja Salvagers' is a misnomer, they are just griefers who want to engage in 'safe PVP' with mission runners who don't know any better. They seldom have any interesting actualy salvaging anything, if they do it's only to induce carebear tears... It's quite sad really Fake Edit - in before one of them labels my post as 'carebear tears'...bite me. ahh to reminisce about my first days in eve... I was a young pilot with not many funds to my name. I was helped, given some advice and I did some missions. ISK was hard, and items were harder. O discovered salvaging, and after selling my first few pieces of the scrap I was sold. I finally had enough for a probe launcher, some probes and a salvager. Gone were the days of salvaging my own missions, I would finally make some real bank. so i probed some bear down and started salvaging. He was doing a lvl 4 in a battleship so couldn't do a lot about it. I earned enough to fund lots of frig roams in lowsec with. God was that fun. Learning valuable probing skills, aggro mechanics and earning a hundred times the ISK you could earn normally as a young solo pilot. So no, I won't bite. But I'll turn a blind eye when someone warps inside my mission and starts to salvage those large wrecks. Because not all of them, not even close to all of them, do it for tears. Some just want to have fun but can't earn the ISK yet. And hey, if they get some large armor plates they'll go to lowsec and the more the merrier, no? also qq gg no re nub
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2011.01.02 00:42:00 - [50] Originally by: GunsABlazn For as long as I can remember there has always been this debate about whether or not to make wrecks the property of the pilot who blew up the ship. That issue has never actually been solved. Incorrect sir. CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Celia Therone	Posted - 2011.01.02 09:27:00 - [51] Originally by: GunsABlazn 1) Will the "Noctis" put a slow end to ninja salvaging? The real threat to Ninja salvaging from the Noctis is from more people salvaging (if you are a slow mission runner you might as well loot with a noctis, and if you're looting then salvaging is essentially free) leading to the salvage market getting flooded and crashing. This will make ninja salvaging much less profitable, quite possibly to the point of it not being worthwhile compared to other activities. It'll still be a niche of course because a lot of ninja salvagers just do it to grief people and don't care that much about the salvage itself.
hpw1	Posted - 2011.01.03 12:58:00 - [52] well its the first time ive commented , i used to use a catalyst to salvage, now ive got a noctis. i bought the blueprint for 12 mil isk and built it from the mins and ore i had been mining.without a shadow of a doubt. its made salvaging profitable as this is my man source of revenue, well worth 12 million isk, i used my added skill points to get tech2 salvagers, within two worlds collide i had made my money back, now im rolling.. best buy for sure!!!

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