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Hydroz0rz
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Posted - 2011.01.03 10:19:00 -
[1]
I am soon to be flying a carrier in W-Space in a C3.
I have heard stories that certain fighters perform quite differently to other fighters, can anyone elaborate on this for me please?
Also how effective in reality are fighters VS C3 sleepers?
1 more question if I may, How effective is a heavy Neut VS a carrier? Common sense tells me that a heavy Neut wont bother a carrier cap but Im just getting some info before I fit it up.
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Jaina Sunspot
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.03 10:31:00 -
[2]
Why would you want one?
You get no extra spawns in a C3 by using Caps, the Anoms are run quicker in a Cruiser and a Carrier just makes you a Target.
There is no good reason to have one in a C3.
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Cryten Jones
Gallente Advantage Inc The Matari Consortium
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Posted - 2011.01.03 10:38:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jaina Sunspot
There is no good reason to have one in a C3.
Wrong, if people can gank you in hi-sec for no other reason than "because they can" what makes this any different. :-)
-CJ
Originally by: Nogap toosmall
and your understanding of probability is on par with a radish.
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Jaina Sunspot
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.03 10:44:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Cryten Jones
Wrong, if people can gank you in hi-sec for no other reason than "because they can" what makes this any different. :-)
Just because you can do something, doesn't make it a good idea. This is the difference between carrying your Multi Billion Cargo AFK in an untanked Hauler and carrying then in a Cloaked Blockade Runner. It gives you nothing and attracts the wrong kind of attention.
Carriers need a gang to support them because the have trouble holding tackle on smaller ships like the Wormhole Gangs you see. Meanwhile it isn't scaring anyone who knows what they are doing but it is enough of a Target that bigger corps will come in and Siege you to take out.
It is always a bad decision all around to have a Carrier Trapped inside a C3 doing nothing but looking pretty and waiting to die.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.03 11:00:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 03/01/2011 11:04:08
I think the Amarr Templar is the only bad fighter. Einherji are popular for their damage type, speed, and EHP, but in w-space damage type doesn't matter for sleepers. We've found the Firbolg to be pretty good too.
Try a few of each and decide for yourself which ones you prefer! If you can't afford a bunch of fighters, you shouldn't be using a carrier.
Fighters are fairly useless vs. Sleepers. You are better off with sentries most of the time, though leaving a POS bubble is not recommended.
Solo carriers are very weak to capacitor warfare. A small gang can destroy a carrier pretty quickly. If solo, you are better-off sitting with your nose outside the POS bubble just far enough so that you can assign fighters.
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seany1212
The Scowling Men
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Posted - 2011.01.03 11:03:00 -
[6]
Agreeing with a carrier being dumb in a c3 for running sites, your risking a 2 billion+ isk capital ship where a T3/Battlecruiser can do for half if not a quarter of the price, plus you just paint a huge bullseye on your head when someone scans you with combat probes and your the slowest to leave You guys make squeeky noises when you pop, and that's enough motivation as far as I'm concerned. |
Louis Vitton
Kickass inc Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.03 11:18:00 -
[7]
With reguards to the Fights they all do the same amount of damage but they have different speeds, hit points and such. Alot of people you Gallente fighters as they seem to have the best balance of all the fighters with speed and hitpoints. Also the Thermal Damage is quiet nice i have found but often using a mix of fighters is best for pvp. I am unsure about how they will work on NPC'c as i heard recently though fighter damage to battleship and below class vessals has been reduced though. Not sure if this has come into effect but was active on the test server.
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Jaina Sunspot
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.03 11:29:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Louis Vitton i heard recently though fighter damage to battleship and below class vessals has been reduced though. Not sure if this has come into effect but was active on the test server.
That is fighter bomber accuracy you are talking about. Fighters Tracking can not be boosted by Omni's and there DPS is not stellar so a Drake should be able to put more DPS on Target then a Carrier anyway considering most of the Rats in C3's are Cruisers and Battlecruisers.
Plus they GTFO a lot quicker and don't cost a bil and put a huge loss on your record.
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Darod Zyree
Gallente Zyree Holding
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Posted - 2011.01.03 13:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: seany1212 your risking a 2 billion+ isk capital ship where a T3/Battlecruiser can do for half if not a quarter of the price
2+ billion isk for a carrier?
wtf?
-Darod- |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.03 13:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Darod Zyree
Originally by: seany1212 your risking a 2 billion+ isk capital ship where a T3/Battlecruiser can do for half if not a quarter of the price
2+ billion isk for a carrier?
wtf?
T2 rigs and semi-bling modules and such perhaps? v0v ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Darod Zyree
Gallente Zyree Holding
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Posted - 2011.01.03 13:59:00 -
[11]
Oh like that.
also, v0v ???
-Darod- |
Karn Velora
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Posted - 2011.01.03 14:26:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Karn Velora on 03/01/2011 14:27:56
And to get back on topic...:
Drones (including fighters I guess) can be a pain in the bum when you are up against sleepers. They have this nasty tendency to ignore normal aggro-rules. They will switch targets when ever they feel like it, and the result is usually a drone-massacre, before you are able to pull them back. I guess cap-drones are tougher, but they are also a heck of a lot easier to hit, and take their time getting back to the carrier when something goes awry.
If you plan to use drones when engaging sleepers, you better be prepared and have the recall command ready on a hotkey. Pay attention, or there will be a massacre.
And yeah, even their "cruisers" can hit orbiting light drones, so... yeah. Expect the drones to take damage.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.03 14:48:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Durzel on 03/01/2011 14:49:52 Carriers aren't a terrible idea for W-space, but the key points to remember is that they are principally support ships. The DPS carriers do is fairly average (even the Thanatos), being roughly equivalent to a gank-fitted BS at Carrier 4/Fighters 4. They are also not as expensive as people may perhaps think, costing around 300m to build inside a wormhole (250m back on basic insurance iirc?), so certainly cheaper to lose than any T3.
Trying to solo Sleepers sites in a Carrier is probably a very bad idea for 2 reasons, firstly you're flying something that takes the best part of a minute to align which can be scanned out in a single cycle of combat probes. Secondly Sleepers hate drones when you're flying solo, and they will make short work of Fighters in much the same way as they do other drones. Losing 20m a pop Fighters in every site gets painful fast.
Triaged Carriers make POS RR'ing a lot less painful too.
As said carriers aren't a terrible idea in wormholes so long as you remember what their purpose is and that one carrier is not a subtitute for a support/DPS fleet. In PvP situations in wormholes they could shoo people off of the field, but at the same time they could attract more attention. As someone said on another forum, "bigger s**ts attract more flies".
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Promu
Minmatar Newbies On Xstacy REDEMPTI0N.
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Posted - 2011.01.03 15:41:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Promu on 03/01/2011 15:43:23 Well with fighters 5 the archon gets 1000 dps, i never heard of a 1000dps drake, so its actually like 2.5 extra drakes on the field :)
Plus all you do is as if you were running level 5 missions in low sec, stay aligned at speed, the seconds something pops up on overview > warp, you can warp instantly. -------
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CCP StevieSG
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Posted - 2011.01.03 15:42:00 -
[15]
Moved to Ships and Modules from EVE General.
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Izuru Hishido
Amarr Lethal Dosage. Violent Society
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Posted - 2011.01.03 16:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jaina Sunspot
Originally by: Cryten Jones
Wrong, if people can gank you in hi-sec for no other reason than "because they can" what makes this any different. :-)
Carriers need a gang to support them because the have trouble holding tackle on smaller ships like the Wormhole Gangs you see. Meanwhile it isn't scaring anyone who knows what they are doing but it is enough of a Target that bigger corps will come in and Siege you to take out.
Carriers need a support gang? Odd, I always thought carriers were the support gang. They seem to have a massive boost per level to each of their logistics mods, so that must be the case, and it seems common sense to fit a local tank to them (even if it is just one rep on an armor tanker) with the carrier tanking fairly well.
You're ratting. Keep your eyes out and your figurative head out of your proverbial behind and you'll never get caught. Alt + Probes = safe C3 ratting.
Also, a single heavy neut won't even scratch a carrier's capacitor. Just fit Se bo/(ECCM/Target painter, etc)/Cap Rechargers/Two reps/Resists/Damage control/CCC's and you'll need effectively eight heavy neuts to bring your cap down.
Just stay awake and be cautious. There's no reason not to use a carrier for anything if you're careful about it, so if you're careful, you won't die. "The point of war is not to die for your country, its to make the other bastard die for his." |
Jaina Sunspot
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.03 19:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Izuru Hishido
Carriers need a support gang? Odd, I always thought carriers were the support gang.
Doesn't mean you want to solo them.
Originally by: Izuru Hishido
You're ratting. Keep your eyes out and your figurative head out of your proverbial behind and you'll never get caught. Alt + Probes = safe C3 ratting.
Horrible idea, first person with a Cov Ops Cloak can easily get tackle while a gang waits of the D Scan Range. What is worse it rats slower then a Battlecruiser and when solo a few ships can take it out. It has no real use.
Originally by: Izuru Hishido
Just stay awake and be cautious. There's no reason not to use a carrier for anything if you're careful about it, so if you're careful, you won't die.
Reasons not to put a Carrier in a C3
* It does not Rat Faster in small C3 Plexes. * It is needlessly expensive and does not rat faster. * It can't be hot dropped on targets. * It is a Massive Target. * There is no Local so anything with a Cov Ops Cloak can catch you. * It has no Useful role worth the investment a POS Repping can be done fine in Osprey's * If you need to Rep your POS it was prolly because someone saw the carrier and attacked in the first place
Nothing good come from a C3 Carrier at all. They suck at PVE, they can be used as Haulers, They can not Hot Drop.
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Land0 CaIrissian
Gallente Burnin' Sky
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Posted - 2011.01.03 22:15:00 -
[18]
First off, WH ratting in your carrier isn't really worth it if you're not getting capital spawns.
Originally by: Jaina Sunspot
* It is needlessly expensive.... * It is a Massive Target. * There is no Local so anything with a Cov Ops Cloak can catch you.
Must disagree with most of your points. A carrier is a rather minimal investment to any corp planning on long-term residence in a wormhole. Knowing your exits and their mass limitations make a carrier a great force-multiplier.
Not sure how it's needlessly expensive. I think you should be paying more attention to the people who role faction and deadspace fits on their t3's. Probably 2-3 times the expense, the epitome of necessity.
Originally by: Jaina Sunspot
* It has no Useful role worth the investment a POS Repping can be done fine in Osprey's * If you need to Rep your POS it was prolly because someone saw the carrier and attacked in the first place
Unless you have 25 dudes in cap-stable osprey's ready for a night of pain repping your shields, a carrier is better. Have the 24 dudes doing something constructive while your carrier reps the POS.
-----
Now don't freak out. I'm not advocating that every c3 corp needs a carrier. I'm just stating that carriers are not expensive, have use, and are sexy looking.
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Jaina Sunspot
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.04 02:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian First off, WH ratting in your carrier isn't really worth it if you're not getting capital spawns.
Uh Huh
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Knowing your exits and their mass limitations make a carrier a great force-multiplier.
Not really, any serious Corp attacking will have there forces at both entrances with scouts on the side and will immediatly Warp them to there own Tower there there is no chance of forcing them to fight on your terms.
Chances are the Sieging group in question is bigger then yours and is fielding more numbers then you becaused they researched you and watched you in Cov Ops. They will already know you have a Carrier and it will make no difference.
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Not sure how it's needlessly expensive.
Of no use at all and yet cost money.
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
I think you should be paying more attention to the people who role faction and deadspace fits on their t3's. Probably 2-3 times the expense, the epitome of necessity.
More attention how exactly. Anyway at least those have a chance of making there money back quicker as Carriers suck at running the small C3 sites.
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Unless you have 25 dudes in cap-stable osprey's ready for a night of pain repping your shields, a carrier is better. Have the 24 dudes doing something constructive while your carrier reps the POS.
Ok it is easier if they didn't leave the POS Bubbled which is what you could be logging on into, or they still have several ships logged at there tower.
It is a big target and if you are being sieged by anyone competitent it will not survive because they are taking the system. But if for some reason they did not research you then yeah it can rep quick
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Now don't freak out. I'm not advocating that every c3 corp needs a carrier. I'm just stating that carriers are not expensive, have use, and are sexy looking.
Yes they have use, just not much in a C3. It is definatly not worth the added risk of being targeted for having one.
C5+ Sure, you can use it as a Hauler, get Cap Spawns, Evac it if attacked by supior forces and you will probably make money off of it. But in a C3 it is a Mercadese in a bad bad neighboorhood.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.04 03:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Izuru Hishido Carriers need a support gang? Odd, I always thought carriers were the support gang. They seem to have a massive boost per level to each of their logistics mods, so that must be the case, and it seems common sense to fit a local tank to them (even if it is just one rep on an armor tanker) with the carrier tanking fairly well.
We lost a Chimera and a Revelation in a C2 to an ambush we stupidly and arrogantly walked right into, because we once thought the same.
Carriers are for capital support. Against sub-capitals they are weak, and solo they are very weak.
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Gold Archer
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Posted - 2011.02.12 06:22:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander We lost a Chimera and a Revelation in a C2 to an ambush we stupidly and arrogantly walked right into, because we once thought the same.
You went to a fight in a shield-repping carrier and an armor-tanking dreadnought. Yeah, that was probably not the best plan ever.
OP, carriers are super fantastic swiss army knives. They can haul all of your ships with the rigs on, and a good bit of stuff besides. They can fix up the POS if someone shoots it. If a couple guys try to jump your POS, it can ruin their day if they see a capital ship heading out of the shield towards them. If your corp has a good number of capitals, you can take your carrier with them to do the tougher sleeper sites.
But carriers are not so hot at shooting smaller faster ships, and C3s and lower are mostly smaller faster sleepers. And a big fleet attacking your POS will only be happy to jump your carrier if you try to fight them in it. More to the point, the correct way to use carriers in a fight is to spider tank in a fleet of carriers, so if your corp isn't fielding at least a couple of carriers to be sharing remote rep and cap transfers, you're doing it wrong. They aren't solo pwnmobiles. Additionally, carriers have the unfortunate habit of collapsing wormholes, so if you aren't careful you could wind up trapping yourself or a corpmate on the wrong side of a now-vanished wormhole.
tl;dr - If used responsibly, a carrier can be a big help in W-space, but what you're describing doesn't sound like the wise use for a carrier.
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