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Admiral McGee
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Posted - 2011.01.04 03:39:00 -
[1]
Hey guys. For the past 2 days i was thinking to train a marauder but then people start saying that the machariel is the best for the job. So i`m kinda undecided what to do so far.. to pay 1bil for a ship and then fit it with tech2 modules seems kinda silly and i really dont want to lose that ship in the first angel anomalie that i run in. So what do ya recommand Machariel or Vargur?
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Mike712
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Posted - 2011.01.04 04:11:00 -
[2]
If you're going for anoms I'd suggest the vargur for it's higher potential tank. A mach can run level 4s with it's minimal tank because of it's insane mobility but I wouldn't want to count on that for survivability in anoms.
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.04 05:55:00 -
[3]
^^^ this.
Plus, the skills u need for a Vargur are usefull on a Mach as well.
Vargur has a great tank, and about 10% less DPS than the mach, with a similar falloff too.
Machs are awesome for L4's
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McRoll
Minmatar The Legion of Darkness
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Posted - 2011.01.04 11:55:00 -
[4]
Edited by: McRoll on 04/01/2011 11:56:40 This topic has been done to death. I won't bother to explain fully, here is a tl:dr
Mach has about 100-150 DPS more, Varg has the ability to salvage on the go, overall the isk/h is better with the Varg, the Mach is marginally faster at completing a mission.
If you want to blitz for LP use Mach, for better isk/h use Varg. Edit: I saw youre talking about anomalies- in that case I'd go with a better tank, which is the Vargur Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
nubos
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Posted - 2011.01.04 15:06:00 -
[5]
simple
if you have alt on logistic to do tanking for ya - mach is better for anoms, plexes, missions
if you want solo - vargur, much better tank than mach at expense of 1 gun
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Newbie Ned
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
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Posted - 2011.01.04 17:16:00 -
[6]
I wouldn't necessarily say that the Vargur has a better tank than a Mach. I know the EFT numbers say this but you should be speed tanking the Mach which can make a huge difference (I was a doubter until I tried it). Depends exactly what you are fighting, ofc.
And of course there is the old adage that gank is tank!
Also Mach is more fun. |
NoNah
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Posted - 2011.01.04 18:18:00 -
[7]
Simple
If the portion of your income from loot is noticably greater than the lost damage from using a vargur instead of a machariel go for a vargur.
Personally I'll say machariel any day of the week simply because looting takes effort and the income difference is far from noticable. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 870057
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JenaMarauder
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Posted - 2011.03.07 16:35:00 -
[8]
Edited by: JenaMarauder on 07/03/2011 16:38:53 Why does everyone seem to ignore the Noctis? Why would you salvage in anything other than a Noctis when it takes hours to train, I mission in a Machariel and come back to salvage on my 50million fit Noctis everything at 80km with my skills, thats with 3,000m3+, salvaging in a marauder seems silly when its so slow compared to the Noctis, salvage 4 wrecks while you tractor 4 other wrecks, all done in 2-3 mins. Forget about marauder salvaging, its useless ever since the Noctis came out if you are just doing lvl 4s.
ALSO! Forgot to add, obviously Machariel is my choice for lvl 4 missioning, but never use faction ammo on a machariel or maelstrom, faction ammo are for marauders because it only uses 4 turrets saving you ALOT of iskies effectively raising dps above 1000dps without taking 40% of your profits.
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Terianna Eri
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.03.07 16:58:00 -
[9]
I do Guristas anoms in a Mach and very rarely have problems with the tank, and I just fit a T2 tank. High speed makes tanking easy. Dunno if it'll work as well v. Angels but the innate higher explosive resist should help.
Then again Angels are actually worth salvaging, so if I lived in Angel space I might run a Vargur instead, idk. ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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JenaMarauder
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Posted - 2011.03.07 18:01:00 -
[10]
If you can use a vargur and a machariel tho, use the vargur, you can get same fall off range with better tracking, which means more damage at longer range, but either way with a 100mn ab you can get in range pretty quick, the vargur's extra dps tank makes up for its slightly bigger signature ratio, and speed tank is not required even in the most demanding missions based on what I have experienced, and It will still be cap stable with no sacrifice of tank or dps so because I cant fly a vargur anymore on my current character I use a machariel but Im training for a vargur, Infact I may sell my machaariel for a maelstrom since I can just get in range with a mael too, tho less tank ofcourse. I would use a vargur over a machariel any day given the choice, just sucks that I have to wait 77 days now.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.07 18:20:00 -
[11]
1 account vargur 2 accounts mach + salvager.
2 accounts wont net double what 1 will but will always net more.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.07 19:05:00 -
[12]
Originally by: JenaMarauder Why does everyone seem to ignore the Noctis?
Because its ******ed for a serious mission runner to use when a Marauder cleans 50-80% of the loot in the first and only required pass?
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: JenaMarauder Why does everyone seem to ignore the Noctis?
Because its ******ed for a serious mission runner to use when a Marauder cleans 50-80% of the loot in the first and only required pass?
-Liang
To each their own I suppose. You could easily buy a years worth of gametime with the extra money you would make flying a faction ship+ salvager during the train between faction ship to marauder.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.03.07 23:00:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cipher Jones To each their own I suppose. You could easily buy a years worth of gametime with the extra money you would make flying a faction ship+ salvager during the train between faction ship to marauder.
and you could buy an extra year and a half worth of game time with the extra money you make by not wasting time salvaging.
that is why marauders are awesome, they make salvaging a parallel task. I highly doubt that the extra dps on the mach improves completion time that much that it is worth it to go switch ships and come back salvage go back and switch ships again.
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Strange Kid
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Posted - 2011.03.08 12:24:00 -
[15]
Mach for angel sanctums, price/quality high skillpoint setup:
7x t2 800mm heavy neut / probe launcher
gist x-type large shield booster (500-600M) invul ii invul ii exp ii shield boost amp ii
4x republic fleet gyro (300 mill) 3x tracking enhancer ii
2x ccc anti-em screen reinforcer ii (50 mill)
^ this is about the minimum setup you can consistently solo sanctums (including station first spawns) with while maintaining a short range for max dps. you will need to experiment with your tank to see how much it can take, this goes to 10% shields with near perfect skills and implants in every station first spawn. speed tanking with ab hurts your own dps due to transversal.
Vargur in comparison:
-10% less dps
+much lower ammo usage (amounts to 2-3 mill per hour shooting self made fusion) +tank works with t2 fit (mach 1.8 bill, vargur around 1 bill) +salvage on the go (running a noctis requires apm of 3 additional clients, better spent in alt running other sites)
Personally I'm training for vargur to put my mach into PVP where it belongs.
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Malcanis
Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.08 13:21:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mike712 If you're going for anoms I'd suggest the vargur for it's higher potential tank. A mach can run level 4s with it's minimal tank because of it's insane mobility but I wouldn't want to count on that for survivability in anoms.
A Mach can easily manage all anoms bar station sanctums without even trying. You'll have to pilot a bit in order to reduce incoming DPS in order to do station sanctums, but hey, that's why you bought a BS that's the size and speed of a BC in the first place, right?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.08 13:45:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Cipher Jones To each their own I suppose. You could easily buy a years worth of gametime with the extra money you would make flying a faction ship+ salvager during the train between faction ship to marauder.
and you could buy an extra year and a half worth of game time with the extra money you make by not wasting time salvaging.
that is why marauders are awesome, they make salvaging a parallel task. I highly doubt that the extra dps on the mach improves completion time that much that it is worth it to go switch ships and come back salvage go back and switch ships again.
Well Soon I will be able to fly both I will take Identical mission like lets say blockade time it in the Mach/Noctis combo then do the same ith Vargur.
My problem is that with Vargur you have to share the hold with Loot Salvage and booster charges. Which can be tricky and limits the ammount of loot. While with Mach you can fill up on ammo and cap charges [so you have plenty for the O**** moments] and dont have to pick and choose while looting with Noctis. Ctrl-A drag is quicker then going through stuff what to take.
Pod |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.08 15:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Pod Amarr
My problem is that with Vargur you have to share the hold with Loot Salvage and booster charges. Which can be tricky and limits the ammount of loot. While with Mach you can fill up on ammo and cap charges [so you have plenty for the O**** moments] and dont have to pick and choose while looting with Noctis. Ctrl-A drag is quicker then going through stuff what to take.
So don't fit a cap booster. It isn't necessary.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Voodoo Thatyoudoo
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Posted - 2011.03.08 16:13:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Strange Kid Mach for angel sanctums, price/quality high skillpoint setup:
7x t2 800mm heavy neut / probe launcher
gist x-type large shield booster (500-600M) invul ii invul ii exp ii shield boost amp ii
4x republic fleet gyro (300 mill) 3x tracking enhancer ii
2x ccc anti-em screen reinforcer ii (50 mill)
^ this is about the minimum setup you can consistently solo sanctums (including station first spawns) with while maintaining a short range for max dps. you will need to experiment with your tank to see how much it can take, this goes to 10% shields with near perfect skills and implants in every station first spawn. speed tanking with ab hurts your own dps due to transversal.
Vargur in comparison:
-10% less dps
+much lower ammo usage (amounts to 2-3 mill per hour shooting self made fusion) +tank works with t2 fit (mach 1.8 bill, vargur around 1 bill) +salvage on the go (running a noctis requires apm of 3 additional clients, better spent in alt running other sites)
Personally I'm training for vargur to put my mach into PVP where it belongs.
Any Mach fit with CCCs and an active tank is a failfit. What does it buy you except an extra 3-4 seconds of cap?
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.08 17:02:00 -
[20]
Quote: Any Mach fit with CCCs and an active tank is a failfit. What does it buy you except an extra 3-4 seconds of cap? Quote:
A failfit that does missions faster than every other ship is not fail in any way shape or form.
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JenaMarauder
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Posted - 2011.03.08 17:06:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: JenaMarauder Why does everyone seem to ignore the Noctis?
Because its ******ed for a serious mission runner to use when a Marauder cleans 50-80% of the loot in the first and only required pass?
-Liang
LIEEEEEEEES! Well actually yea it does lol, but at 1/12th of the time that it takes for a noctis to gain in one pass, I just pulled out those numbers randomly to make it sound dramatic but yea its way better and faster to just jump back and bring a noctis isk per hour-wise unless you dont need all the loot, I personally do because I manufacture frigs n cruisers for pvp for example. I just find it silly to salvage 10 wrecks a minute when you can salvage 100 in 1 min with a noctis with my purposes, but then again marauders were defenelly made for exploration hence why they are the best mission ships in eve online, in null sec going 5 or 10 jumps to pick up ur noctis to salvage wont work. AAAAND!! 700m3 cargo isnt enough, nowhere near enough for me oh cheesegod I need atleast 3k m3 most of the time lol, it is more than enough for salvage alone but not for my looting, I reprocess stuff I collect from missions for ore for example, an extra 10million average in iskies if I sell, 100million extra a day if I manufacture and sell out of like 3 missions salvaged.... assuming they sell by next morning which is 1 of 5 times, thats now mixing missioning with manufacturing but thats another story.
BUUUUUT!!!!! That is in my case if you are going to pick up loots, a serious mission runner can expand his iskies income beyond 30million-ish average per mission if looted materials are used correctly, downside is that the first few days of researching what to manufacture are a headache, but can double or triple your per-mission income in exchange of your sanity. O,..,O
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Linda Flamewalker
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Posted - 2011.03.08 18:06:00 -
[22]
With a marauder you dont salvage all, you grab the BS wrecks as you kill, and then any battlecruiser if you still got stuff to kill then you go get the next mission. Leave the rest.
Yes you leave a lot behind BUT you make more money/hour so you can just buy the stuff for your manufacturing and still come out ahead if you so wish. That and ninjas pretty much leave you alone |
Lt Angus
Caldari the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.03.08 18:41:00 -
[23]
Noctis is only for the ocd runners who cant handle leaving something behind
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.08 18:41:00 -
[24]
Originally by: JenaMarauder AAAAND!! 700m3 cargo isnt enough, nowhere near enough for me oh cheesegod I need atleast 3k m3 most of the time lol
Leave the Scrap metal and cap boosters behind (basically, the bloated useless crap that reprocesses for nothing), and you're at less than 1Km3.
Quote: That is in my case if you are going to pick up loots, a serious mission runner can expand his iskies income beyond 30million-ish average per mission
The key to making iskies is to think less in money earned per mission, and more in money earned over time. Salvaging as you go is the best solution if you're going to do it all, otherwise just blitzing the next mission is better. It's never worth your time to return to the mission once you're in a proper killing machine.
Originally by: Linda Flamewalker
With a marauder you dont salvage all, you grab the BS wrecks as you kill, and then any battlecruiser if you still got stuff to kill then you go get the next mission. Leave the rest.
I agree with everything but the first clause. You can hoover all the BS wrecks and salvage most of them before the mission is over. Some salvage still sells for a fairly good price... ששששש
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
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Linda Flamewalker
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Posted - 2011.03.08 20:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Seriously Bored I agree with everything but the first clause. You can hoover all the BS wrecks and salvage most of them before the mission is over. Some salvage still sells for a fairly good price...
I didnt mean it liek that, bad phrasing. I more meant, dont stick around to salvage the last few wrecks. Go get the next mission. Do as much as you can while fighting.
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Terianna Eri
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.03.09 01:45:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Strange Kid speed tanking with ab hurts your own dps due to transversal.
protip orbit is junk use approach noob ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.03.09 05:44:00 -
[27]
Vargur and machariel dps difference is actually very small.
In fact, if you dont use republic fleet ammo on your mach, you will lose out already.
On the other hand, vargur is very cheap on ammo (low rof high damage) compared to the machariel, and has a tracking bonus which might or might not make up for it.
The problem is people use ogre and sentries to push up machariel dps. In reality, both of this drones are very very very very useless when you look at the play style of machariel.
Machariel must always keep moving, which means sentry is a liability to mission completion time
Ogre is just a horrible drone to have, needing 20-25 seconds just to start hitting the first target.
However, people also use machariel to shoot frigs using their guns, which nullifies the use of the hobgoblins.
No matter what your playstyle, there is a huge disrepetency between the play style of aC ships and the drone bay. Sure, the drone bay jacks up dps, but its too sad that it will never be applied anyways.
.yes. i am a mach pilot, and i use hobo/warr/hammer/valk
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Furies Ops
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Posted - 2011.03.09 07:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: AristotleOnassis ...The problem is people use ogre and sentries to push up machariel dps. In reality, both of this drones are very very very very useless when you look at the play style of machariel.
Machariel must always keep moving, which means sentry is a liability to mission completion time...
There.
I have run serpentis sanctums in mach (station) with mostly t2 fit. I had only 100mn faction ab and looted faction invu, rest t2. Drones were the webbing sort heavies (fast) and target painting light/medium... ;)
Speed combined with high resist and killing jammers did work out well. I think the webber heavy drones go 1500m/s versus ogre II 840/ms... Not for semi-afk attitude tho.
I doubt that mach cost 1b fitted.
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Cypher V
Minmatar Critical Mass Technologies
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Posted - 2011.03.14 03:04:00 -
[29]
The answer is simple. You can salvage while shooting in the vargur.
The DPS output would have to be like, 40% higher on the mach to make it worth it, the time it takes to salvage after you've shot everything would negate the extra dps.
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Dek'athor
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Posted - 2011.03.14 08:00:00 -
[30]
Train for your fav. fit of Mach
Then while making nice isk with it, train for vargur. Sell off the Mach, buy your vargur.
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