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What are the big red flags for a scam IPO?

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Mas Cream	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:42:00 - [1] I have been over this forum a little bit in the past few days, and been wary of investing due to what seems to be rampant scamming. I was curious what folks consider red flags in the IPO scam post. Like, what are the huge red flags, the ones that you can put on top of an ambulance and get to the hospital with, down to the small little ones that even a seasoned investor may have to really think on? I already feel cautious if someone doesn't allow an auditor, post a concise and detailed business plan, and skimp on the "exit Strategy". What else is there?
Nobel Prize	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:54:00 - [2] Age of the character (a big one for me) unless confirmed related to an older, proven non scammer character. API disclosure wouldn't be a bad idea either (whether disclosed to all or to auditing 3rd party). Compare new Debt in relation to either income invested or secured asset(s). Anyone else have any other ideas?
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:57:00 - [3] Originally by: Mas Cream What else is there? When you invest with characters called Bad Bobby, your just asking for trouble. But on a serious note, there are no real 'red flags', for every thing you mentioned there's a very good reason why not to provide the information. Don't allow an auditor: Auditors cost isk, and if recent threads are any indication, good auditors cost a lot of isk. You also give someone, who might or might not be as trustworthy as you can throw a Titan, all your information (which can be used to destroy your market and possibly your entire business). No Business plan: Have you ever seen what happens when someone posts a profitable scheme on the MD forum? It's like a bunch of locusts decent on your market, very bad for business in most cases. Skimping on the exit strategy: I don't know about you, but I would think that folks that walk under a bus have other concerns then some folks not getting paid virtual isk in an Internet spaceship game... The simplest rule is: don't invest what you can't afford to loose, the same thing that applies to the spaceships you fly. Also keep in mind that the more isk is involved, the higher the risks are. A lot of folks are willing to sell their souls/reputation if the price is high enough... I've seen folks scam here for a few 100M isk to a few 100B isk, so it really depends on the individual.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:14:00 - [4] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 07/01/2011 15:19:07 Big red ones 1. Noob w/ no history asking for large amounts and no collateral. 2. After presenting plan becomes beligerent in convos towards questions 3. Refusal to give any info on plan Small red ones 1. Plan is well written and too perfect if coming from a new guy with no collateral. Scammers know what MD likes but will push the envelope with sparkly words and dazzling BS. 2. Presenter has slowly built up a career doing very small ipo's and now is asking for a huge amount w/ no collateral. 3. Refuses 3rd part check and has no history. 4. No info on plan or its extremely short. 5. Immediately announces "this is not a scam, if you dont trust me dont invest". In the end, trust and chance is what im trying to say. Even the most loyal buisness partner might stab you in ze back. Edit and its pointless to think my info will help you if you are looking for the best way to scam. There is only one way to do it proper and you diserve to get a take if you do it. That is, build a reputation for the next 2-3 years then make bank.
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:30:00 - [5] Asking for a list of scammer red flags.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:39:00 - [6] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 07/01/2011 15:46:15 Originally by: Cergorach Don't allow an auditor: Auditors cost isk, and if recent threads are any indication, good auditors cost a lot of isk. You also give someone, who might or might not be as trustworthy as you can throw a Titan, all your information (which can be used to destroy your market and possibly your entire business). VV's recent thread revolved around audits being dirt-cheap... There's an MD audit fund that is apparently going to shut down because nobody asks them to finance audits anymore ("finance" as in "donate ISK for audits" not "lend"). Originally by: Cergorach No Business plan: Have you ever seen what happens when someone posts a profitable scheme on the MD forum? It's like a bunch of locusts decent on your market, very bad for business in most cases. yeah... when I post that I am trading small - medium T2 ships between hubs people are so going to come and destroy my business... (and that's actually fairly detailed information when compared with the requirements most investors seem to have rgd a trader's business plan) The only person who should be able to screw you would be the auditor. If you want investment that's the risk you have to take (and the people asking for audits would usually profit more from you running a profitable business than from the auditor getting rich). When there still were decent industry offerings, people would often post and discuss the layout of whole production chains (to explain/analyze capital requirements) and I cannot remember anyone mentioning that the market suddenly got much tighter because he posted that information. I guess that most business plans do not really rely on obscurity but on high barriers to entry (BPOs, sov space, certain skills, ...) or your time being worth less than that of your potential competitors. Originally by: Cergorach Skimping on the exit strategy: I don't know about you, but I would think that folks that walk under a bus have other concerns then some folks not getting paid virtual isk in an Internet spaceship game... Why would you skimp on it when you can collect free bonus points with your investors by providing a somewhat believable exit strategy for that case? You profit from having an exit strategy if nothing happens to you and if something serious should happen you don't have to care. (btw most good "hit by bus" strategies I have seen so far did explicitly state that it was unlikely the plan would be executed (by roommates/family members) in case of a serious accident - yet having even a weak strategy for these situations seems to give investors some comfort)
Rebnok H A V O C Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:07:00 - [7] if its an ipo or investment sceme its a scam, simple The only thing im running is my mouth
Elizabeth Thrace	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:26:00 - [8] Its very simple, just look for the three letters "IPO" a sure sign someone, somewhere, at somepoint is going to be screwed in it. IPO = Idiot Phishing Operation At least until CCP gives people some real way for protection/justice.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:46:00 - [9] don't look for red flags, look for the green ones. I recently made an unsecured 500m loan to a complete unknown on this forum. Key elements in my decision making were (a) small size of offering, (b) initially the offering was to be partially collateralized and (c) the business manager had been in a RP corp for several years (with one IGS post a few months after joining that corp so she wasn't completely inactive during that time). the weighted importance of these points would have been (c) > (b) > (a), despite (c) and (b) being no "hard" green flags but just criteria derived from reading MD for a long time that could be easily gamed by an ambitious scammer. Hopefully this gives you some idea how people look for non-obvious "weak" indicators of trustworthiness in an environment in which you can count on every scammer being aware of the few "hard" indicators.
Corcyrus Endymion Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming	Posted - 2011.01.07 17:03:00 - [10] Edited by: Corcyrus Endymion on 07/01/2011 17:04:45 Overall feeling. Obviously there are the easy flags that have already been pointed out, but all in all it boils down to : "Can I trust this man/woman with my isk?". What overall sentiment does the post and poster exude? Do his other posts convey that same sentiment? Does his write up feel too "concocted"? Or too lax? Etc etc

Mas Cream	Posted - 2011.01.07 21:00:00 - [11] Thanks everyone. Now to put all this awesome info to good use.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2011.01.07 21:09:00 - [12] A lot of red flags can be explained, and a lot of scams were scams of opportunity - not planned to turn into scams, but when burnout occurred or with an opportunity to claim shares aka T4U and take control presents itself some people have decided "Sod this I'm off and taking your isk with me" There are a lot of ways to limit your risks, and people do the best they can, but even the smart investors lose isk now and then.
Berikath	Posted - 2011.01.07 21:10:00 - [13] Originally by: Mas Cream What else is there? If it looks too good to be true. This includes offering high returns right off the bat. If someone is intending to pay back, they'll try and get your money at as low a rate as possible (possibly even starting out with a laughably low proposal- 4% unsecured for first loan, maybe ;) ). While it may be annoying to try and haggle them up to a reasonable rate, that's actually a good thing. If they're planning to run off with your money they won't care what rate they agree to- that's when you'll probably see someone offering 15% "plus a bonus if I do well", or something. I also see taking a moderately small loan and breaking it into even smaller chunks as a bit of a red flag (e.g., 1b loan broken into 100m pieces). If some of the pieces get filled very quickly (half hour or less, I'd say) that's a bigger red flag. If they get filled by people who've never posted on MD before, that's a giant, flashing, neon red sign that says "WARNING! WARNING!". * [ SIG] * Wish list for PI: One-click input routing Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! [ /sig ]
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.01.07 23:02:00 - [14] Originally by: SetrakDark Asking for a list of scammer red flags. aaaand I was right. Still got it. /me puts on shades /me pops collar And I'm out.
Mas Cream Monetary Allocation Certified Securities Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.07 23:41:00 - [15] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: SetrakDark Asking for a list of scammer red flags. aaaand I was right. Still got it. /me puts on shades /me pops collar And I'm out. Someone's being a bit presumptuous! Time will tell, won't it!
LifeHatesMe	Posted - 2011.01.08 00:21:00 - [16] Originally by: SetrakDark Asking for a list of scammer red flags. Ditto! Seriously if you want to invest, your better off investing in yourself. ______________________________ War... War never ends.
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2011.01.08 00:40:00 - [17] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 08/01/2011 00:41:27 I ask what are the tradeoffs, if the player absconds with the assets and possibly other obligations they have? Obviously, they gain assets (possibly a lot more than you'd expect, if they have other alts getting investments as well). Part of the reason for auditing the player is to determine the true extent of their obligations. But what are the costs? Maybe they have some assets under third party control (and which they forfeit, assuming the third party isn't in on the scam). They can't run any more investments or bonds. Those can be quite lucrative even for the honest. Even the dishonest have to consider that they might be able to run a larger scam. If they were audited, then some number of their alts are known and probably will be perpetually watched if not hunted. That greatly restricts what they can do with the alts (they'll have trouble even selling them off). And their reputation has some degree of value though that seems to be traditionally greatly overestimated in the IPO or bond offering. So I guess two closely related red flags for me are an IPO or bond that is considerably larger than previous value provided. And any situation where walking away or scamming is a clear win.
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2011.01.08 02:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Mas Cream I was curious what folks consider red flags ... Lack of transparency, plus if is not listed, I don't invest. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Taedrin Gallente The Green Cross Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.01.08 03:00:00 - [19] Why does the potential scammer NEED an IPO? Put yourself in the potential scammer's shoes - what is his cost/benefit analysis? What benefit would a successfully run IPO give the potential scammer over waiting for the cash to come in by normal means? Are his potential profits worth the interest rate he is enticing you with? How much money is he asking for? Does the amount of money match what he is trying to do? Basically, it all boils down to this: does his business plan make sense? Not only for you, but for him too. Be wary of the man who makes you an offer which is too good to be true. ---------- Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Horrible Labs SRS.	Posted - 2011.01.08 04:34:00 - [20] Biggest red flag - asking what potential red flags on an IPO are, then putting up your own IPO.

Mas Cream Monetary Allocation Certified Securities Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.08 04:44:00 - [21] Edited by: Mas Cream on 08/01/2011 04:45:25 Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Biggest red flag - asking what potential red flags on an IPO are, then putting up your own IPO. It's like so terribadly orchestrated.. I mean if I was really a scammer, this would have been objective-suicide right ? A scammer would not be this stupid and obvious right ?! He would try and avoid using the reg flags, but here I am rolling them out on ...well, a red carpet! How fitting! All the flags will be recalled to the factory when it comes to light that this was an honest operation and the shareholders are making back their money and then some! You know what this is then ? The first fake scam IPO. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1444508&page=1 Be a part of Eve History folks! Buy a share of the first fake scam IPO !
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2011.01.08 05:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Mas Cream I was curious what folks consider red flags in the IPO scam post. Shills posting comments. Live example: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=bigshot&cid=90244805 Three day old one man "Investment Banc" gang "Johnny Cosmo" diving straight into MD after creating a corp on day two, trying to "invest" some hundred millions, spreading some 'wisdom' along the way ...
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.01.08 09:17:00 - [23] Quote: Don't allow an auditor: Auditors cost isk, and if recent threads are any indication, good auditors cost a lot of isk If you cannot gather 50M for an audit then nobody should ever invest in you. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2011.01.08 09:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Don't allow an auditor: Auditors cost isk, and if recent threads are any indication, good auditors cost a lot of isk If you cannot gather 50M for an audit then nobody should ever invest in you. I thought you quit due to not earning enough with auditing. 50M isk is peanuts for a job that takes 10-20 hours. That is the reason why I was assuming that good auditors (should) cost a lot of isk (atleast 20M isk per hour).
RAW23	Posted - 2011.01.08 10:52:00 - [25] Edited by: RAW23 on 08/01/2011 10:55:58 Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Mas Cream I was curious what folks consider red flags ... Lack of transparency, plus if is not listed, I don't invest. Block's investment strategy is based on only investing in the four live offerings that cooperate with his exchange service. Obviously, cooperation with Block's schemes is the most important feature in an offering. After all, if you can't see a figure for historical earnings per share and are left to work it out for yourself that is THE biggest red flag of all!
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.01.08 11:38:00 - [26] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 08/01/2011 11:43:21 Originally by: Cergorach Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Don't allow an auditor: Auditors cost isk, and if recent threads are any indication, good auditors cost a lot of isk If you cannot gather 50M for an audit then nobody should ever invest in you. I thought you quit due to not earning enough with auditing. 50M isk is peanuts for a job that takes 10-20 hours. That is the reason why I was assuming that good auditors (should) cost a lot of isk (atleast 20M isk per hour). There'd be a lot to comment about this: - People who ask to be audited tend to have 2-4 accounts, some of the parts of an audit yield to a constant workload therefore the more the accounts the more "convenient" auditing becomes. On the other side, a single account holder fits easily even in the most basic auditing software without resorting to workarounds like setting up N virtual machines. - I know I might sound stupid but I like to help people. My education has been centered about Christian values and I embraced them and find them much better than the available alternatives (which usually promote selfism, self gratification and indulgence, success without care about the means used to achieve it, money > all...). - I actually like to audit too, probably because it's not the thing I am forced to do at work for 10 hours a day. - It's part of my very long term of introducing more and more financial instruments into EvE. EvE meta-game economy some call it, but it's billions that move. It's time that EvE takes off and goes out of the sterile "Bond-IPO-loan-scam" four "pillars", they are so basic and boring. - The auditing fund - someone will recall how I called it useless and got well flamed. In perspective it has not fostered a new generation of auditors and at the same time it has never helped the few who actually dirty their hands and DO the audits. Why is it so? Why creating a BoD, funding and all for something that could be useful but lacks of something to become useful? Why I have never been contacted by anyone of them to see if something could be found and fixed? Why do investors do the stupidest thing ever and have the investee (with huge vested interests) pay an auditor instead pooling their money and having the auditor as logical investee counterpart (and not "employee)? Why is the expression of a past pooling of such money slowly fading away? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.08 11:52:00 - [27] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 08/01/2011 11:56:14 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Why is it so? Why creating a BoD, funding and all for something that could be useful but lacks of something to become useful? Why I have never been contacted by anyone of them to see if something could be found and fixed? Why don't you increase your fees substantially and tell your clients to get the audit fund to pay for the audit? (or at least pay for the difference between new and current prices) You really seem to enjoy complaining about the audit fund but afaik you did never even try to make use of it. If your last few clients would have complained to you how audits are too expensive and how their requests for financial help got rejected by the audit fund I would understand but the way I remember your previous comments on this subject you seem to be stuck between "I don't know what the audit fund actually does and I don't care", "I object to the idea of any subsidies" and "I want the audit fund to help me". The fact that the audit fund is almost never used is imho due to (a) less people using the "no ISK to pay for audits" excuse (which might be a direct consequence of the existence of this fund) and (b) to the only active auditor (i.e. you) not educating clients about the possibility to get the fund to pay for the audit.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.01.08 12:12:00 - [28] Edited by: RAW23 on 08/01/2011 12:13:35 VV - My memory of events is that you said you did not want to cooperate with the fund, criticising it for artifically attempting to support a market that was not financially viable (amongst other things). The fund was set up with a chartered aim of purely providing financial support for small offerings that claimed it would not be financially viable to go to the expense of being audited for a bond under a certain value. Insofar as this excuse is no longer used in order to justify avoiding an audit, the fund has been pretty successful. It was also laid down at the start that the fund would not get involved in setting any kind of auditing standards or exerting pressure on auditors to work in a given way. The sole role was to disburse funds on the basis of a majority vote to support audits for credible small offerings. Given that a) no one has asked for such support for a long time, and b) the effort involved in drafting the initial charter was quite significant (the work horse being SetrakDark) and drafting a new charter and running it through the process of public criticism would take more time and energy than any of the board members have available, the decision to close the fund was taken. If someone else has the time and energy to rework the charter to expand the role of the fund I would fully support that but I don't think it is legitimate to criticise it for doing EXACTLY what it said it would do when it solicited donations. Since it holds money given charitably it would not be appropriate to make ad hoc changes on the fly.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.08 12:21:00 - [29] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 08/01/2011 12:25:25 addendum: (@VV) yes, i am mad at you - because we all have been listening to your "look at me how I work endless hours for no ISK" complaints for well over a year now and in all that time you have to my knowledge never made any attempt to demonstrate that the market would indeed not bear any higher rates than the ones you currently charge. Even with an audit fund that has more ISK than it knows how to spend on your side you never tried to get more realistic prices. Meanwhile you complain and complain and complain about the low prices, how there's a shortage of auditors because of the low prices and how we all should look up to you (or feel guilty?) because you are the only one stupid enough to work at these wages. Now, let me break it to you - the only reason there are no other auditors left is because you do your best to push them out of the market. You are pretty much a monopolist when it comes to providing auditing services on this forum, you are considered to be the gold standard with rgds to quality and (more importantly) trustworthiness and you basically offer your work for free. How can anyone (who has less of a reputation and cannot offer much improvement on your style of reporting) compete with free? his own reputation, report quality and price are the only visible attributes of an auditor's work after all. If you would charge the high prices your monopoly position might allow you to demand, there would be a possibility for other auditors to compete. If you were to charge realistic prices you would maybe get a few newer players competing with you who value their own time significantly lower than you do. But by offering a premium service at discount prices you have successfully destroyed any potential for competition. At the same time you subject us every few months to your "prices are too low, not enough competition, workload too high, threatening to quit" QQ. Maybe it's time to ask yourself what you really want - you keep saying "A" but every action of yours spells "¼A" and the only thing this achieves is that it makes you look as if you enjoy being a drama queen.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.01.08 12:52:00 - [30] Edited by: RAW23 on 08/01/2011 12:54:26 VV - a few links to remind you what you said about the fund in the past. This is the initial discussion thread. You do not make any suggestions here for how the fund should run. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1271639&page=6 Then, four months later, you go to some lengths to criticise the whole foundational principle of the fund and suggest that we should not be subsidising audits at all. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1278142&page=2 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1278142&page=3#84 Given that you publicly stated your distaste for subsidised audits and your view that if auditors themselves cannot draw in sufficient fees to make their jobs viable the job should just wither away under market forces, I am slightly amazed that you are now annoyed that the fund didn't take any special steps to provide funding for the audits you do or seek out your advice on how to run a project that you had made clear your disapproval for.

Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.01.08 12:53:00 - [31] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 08/01/2011 13:04:49 Quote: VV - My memory of events is that you said you did not want to cooperate with the fund, criticising it for artifically attempting to support a market that was not financially viable (amongst other things). It did support a market that was not financially viable. In a certain way I was over-optimistic at expecting a more elastic auditing market, where "demand" (investors, the ones with fat wallets, the ones meant to pay audits even in RL) would wisen up and start offering a fair fee by themselves. This did not happen, for reasons before the eyes of everyone and thus the auditing market just died. The cloud of pseudo-auditors that formed to suckle in the fund while it was still warm ended up quitting anyway. I don't recall recent audits being done by them, in fact the fund is going to close down due to sitting unused. So, while my sin is to have been overly optimistic, what's the fund's? I have yet to see any self criticism about why money is just sitting there and none cares to come grab it. Quote: yes, i am mad at you - because we all have been listening to your "look at me how I work endless hours for no ISK" complaints for well over a year now and in all that time you have to my knowledge never made any attempt to demonstrate that the market won't bear higher rates than the ones you currently charge The investments going to be audited are mostly in the 500M to 4B range, asking them for the equivalent of 5 hours would mean to ask a 500M bond guy to shell out 200M which is not "a complaint", it's just impossible. A 4B audit requires more hours so the proportion stays correlated. Quote: Even with an audit fund that has more ISK than it knows how to spend on your side you never tried to get more realistic prices. While I was apparently offline, I have been flamed for having charged 30M in the past, publicly on the SCC Lounge chat. The investees I asked to talk with the auditing fund to get the money, never returned again. They CBA to do the effort. I only despise that I can't dump my mailbox or chat logs here, you'd see many instructional things. Quote: Now, let me break it to you - the only reason there are no other auditors left is because you do your best to push them out of the market. You are pretty much a monopolist when it comes to providing auditing services on this forum, you are considered to be the gold standard with rgds to quality and (more importantly) trustworthiness and you basically offer your work for free. I noticed the many new faces coming up in these days past I announced a stop (don't know how much final) in my operation. Oh wait, there's Breaker77 who always stayed here even with me crashing the prices. Quote: If you were to charge realistic prices you would maybe get a few newer players competing with you who value their own time significantly lower than you do. Now that the auditing fund is closed (or closing), try asking someone 200M-400M and let's see how successful you are at convincing them. Quite sure a 500M - 2B bond investee is going to reply with a sounding GTFO. Quote: Now, let me break it to you - the only reason there are no other auditors left is because you do your best to push them out of the market. They could just have used the auditing fund to earn the "right" amount and screw my evil plan so badly, wouldn't they? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
RAW23	Posted - 2011.01.08 13:03:00 - [32] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Now that the auditing fund is closed (or closing), try asking someone 200M-400M and let's see how successful you are at convincing them. Quite sure a 500M - 2B bond investee is going to reply with a sounding GTFO. Well, the thing to do would be to ask for that when the fund was active, not wait until it closes and then complain that you can no longer ask for these fees. I'm still willing to support the auditing profession by making private contributions to expensive audits, so my suggestion is first try the higher prices and lets see how it goes. If you start soon enough, there might be a case to be made for keeping the fund open. At the moment there is no demand for its services. Only auditors can create that demand by charging appropriate fees.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.01.08 13:07:00 - [33] Quote: Well, the thing to do would be to ask for that when the fund was active, not wait until it closes and then complain that you can no longer ask for these fees I don't think I was meant to come and knock at the door, the investee was. I am not going to beg, I prefer to close shop till someone offers what I believe is my potential of profit per hour (40M+ per hour doing i.e. L4 missions) - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.01.08 13:11:00 - [34] Can't auditors just team together and audit an offering between them, breaking down and sharing the workload and analysis? A 3-part payment can also be made, part from the fund, part from the investors and part from the person raising the bond.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.01.08 13:16:00 - [35] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Well, the thing to do would be to ask for that when the fund was active, not wait until it closes and then complain that you can no longer ask for these fees I don't think I was meant to come and knock at the door, the investee was. I am not going to beg, I prefer to close shop till someone offers what I believe is my potential of profit per hour (40M+ per hour doing i.e. L4 missions) I meant ask the auditees. They won't ask us for money if you don't ask them. Just set your price and stick with it.
Corcyrus Endymion Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming	Posted - 2011.01.08 13:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Can't auditors just team together and audit an offering between them, breaking down and sharing the workload and analysis? A 3-part payment can also be made, part from the fund, part from the investors and part from the person raising the bond. Sharing the amount of work means sharing the spoils. This will not do the job, if the total spoils remain the same. The problem lies that with the amount of work needed, none is willing to pay the price that would reward a proper hourly wage.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.01.08 13:18:00 - [37] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 08/01/2011 13:19:36 Edit: Originally by: RAW23 I meant ask the auditees. They won't ask us for money if you don't ask them. Just set your price and stick with it. I DID ask them to ask you the money, I suppose you see how many performed such step? Zero? Originally by: RAW23 This is the initial discussion thread. You do not make any suggestions here for how the fund should run. I had no suggestion for something I believed to be fundamentally flawed (in the idea, I DO appreciate your heavy efforts, you are one of the few "who care"!). Originally by: RAW23 I am slightly amazed that you are now annoyed that the fund didn't take any special steps to provide funding for the audits you do or seek out your advice on how to run a project that you had made clear your disapproval for. I'll tell you my personal POV on it: it should have steered immediately away from a concept of "welfare auditing" and should have become an Big Investors Fund, where suitable and influential investors would have pooled money and the then they'd hire auditors "per project" to evaluate new businesses they were interested in. That would have had my enthusiastical agreement, I am just allergic to everything "given by the welfare" because my country is completely rotten and corrupted by that and I really despise it. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Taram Caldar Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression	Posted - 2011.01.08 13:25:00 - [38] Have to agree w/Raw on that one VV... It's a little late for you to start going on about how the fund should have sought your opinion when you made your opinion very clear about it so many times. Market Alerts Mailing List
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.08 13:34:00 - [39] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 08/01/2011 13:43:54 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I noticed the many new faces coming up in these days past I announced a stop (don't know how much final) in my operation. Oh wait, there's Breaker77 who always stayed here even with me crashing the prices. it takes time to redevelop a crashed market - initially customers will be very hesitant because they still have the old price points anchored in their minds but after a period of scarcity this would certainly change. I doubt that anybody seriously believes that you really do intend to stop your operation for more than 2 weeks - just look at your posts in your thread and this one. VV: audits don't pay enough, I am going to stop doing this work. random guy: so I heard audits are expensive... VV: no, no, no! audits are really cheap and I like it that way! edit: charging higher prices nearly always means losing a few customers. But then you could experiment with serious price discrimination which you don't appear to do either...
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.01.08 13:36:00 - [40] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Mas Cream I was curious what folks consider red flags ... Lack of transparency, plus if is not listed, I don't invest. You probably shouldn't listen to the self serving advice of the man who will take your shares in other investments and refuse to give them back.

Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2011.01.08 13:38:00 - [41] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha - I know I might sound stupid but I like to help people. My education has been centered about Christian values and I embraced them and find them much better than the available alternatives (which usually promote selfism, self gratification and indulgence, success without care about the means used to achieve it, money > all...). O dear someone played the Christianity card! So I would revise my Redflag theory, points up, that's one right there! ;-) As someone who has attended a Christian school and a Catholic school, but isn't a religious person, I find the 'Christian values' comment... where's that barfing emoticon Some of the greatest screwups I¦ve seen were ¦devout¦ Christians, so no offense aimed at your personal beliefs and motivations. But toting out a religion as the basis of your moral beliefs is going to be met with lot of skepticism if not ridicule. I've done my share of altruistic deeds, volunteering for a Non-profit and am now actually giving a significant discount to Non-Profits in RL. In EVE I am less altruistic, I don't mind helping a fellow podder out, but it is still a cut throat business/game. Especially here in MD it's populated by a lot of money grubbers and scammers, so why would you be charitable to others while they use your charity to make some serious profit? I could understand being semi charitable to a startups, but a lot of us are certainly not startups.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.01.08 14:00:00 - [42] Originally by: Cyaxares II I doubt that anybody seriously believes that you really do intend to stop your operation for more than 2 weeks - just look at your posts in your thread and this one. I just checked the OP: "VAHCO is going to terminate its auditing services as of 2011-01-05 00:00:00 till further notification" Now, while my English is not perfect, the italics bit would indicate I stopped auditing till some condition happens not forever and in any case. In fact, the first reply, by Hexxx, exactly got the full meaning of it: "I assume the purpose is to better allocate your finite amount of time towards activities to which you are uniquely suited to pursue?" I don't know if I am uniquely suited to pursue what he says but I am indeed allocating my finite amount of time towards other activities. I started it as "cleanly" as possible, then it sort of "degenerated" and I have to say at the time I did not miss reasons for crying. Originally by: Cergorach But toting out a religion as the basis of your moral beliefs is going to be met with lot of skepticism if not ridicule. It is also meant to eventually lead to be killed because of them, so skepticism and ridiculing are not of my utmost concern tbh. Also, recall how for every 1 that is true to a teaching there are 1000 using it to viscidly achieve their objectives and they bring bad light on all. Finally I don't exactly love to talk about personal things (only did this time because I don't like to hide anything) so I'd drop the whole thing here. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Corcyrus Endymion Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming	Posted - 2011.01.08 14:31:00 - [43] Originally by: Cergorach Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha - I know I might sound stupid but I like to help people. My education has been centered about Christian values and I embraced them and find them much better than the available alternatives (which usually promote selfism, self gratification and indulgence, success without care about the means used to achieve it, money > all...). O dear someone played the Christianity card! So I would revise my Redflag theory, points up, that's one right there! ;-) As someone who has attended a Christian school and a Catholic school, but isn't a religious person, I find the 'Christian values' comment... where's that barfing emoticon Some of the greatest screwups I¦ve seen were ¦devout¦ Christians, so no offense aimed at your personal beliefs and motivations. But toting out a religion as the basis of your moral beliefs is going to be met with lot of skepticism if not ridicule. I've done my share of altruistic deeds, volunteering for a Non-profit and am now actually giving a significant discount to Non-Profits in RL. In EVE I am less altruistic, I don't mind helping a fellow podder out, but it is still a cut throat business/game. Especially here in MD it's populated by a lot of money grubbers and scammers, so why would you be charitable to others while they use your charity to make some serious profit? I could understand being semi charitable to a startups, but a lot of us are certainly not startups. Ehem, Godwin. **** Germany. Discuss!
Mas Cream Monetary Allocation Certified Securities Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.08 17:17:00 - [44] Oh, pretty Drama! On a side note. No Auditors for MACSI, just because its a red flag and I am investing in red flags.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2011.01.08 20:25:00 - [45] Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 08/01/2011 20:26:12 Am I right in thinking VVs position is more that "I shouldn't have had to tell you the audit fund should have been more active in getting auditors a good reward because it's so obvious" ? I have to say I fully agree with that line of thinking if so. Whilst it would have been in VVs best interest as an auditor to get a better wage for the job, surely it should have been a MUCH higher priority for the investors to try and get a better reward for the job being done? It's their investments they are trying to protect afterall. A pool of money together where the fund could look at various proposals and actively say "We want this audited, XXX Million payment for having it done" ensuring a good reward for the job. Reality is a good reward paid by the proposer would kill the profitability of it, so they aren't exactly going to jump up and down offering 300million isk reward for having an audit done. This cost has to be spread out amongst several investors via the fund so their own profitability isn't killed off either. It';s the only way to balance reward V work done. The fund can also profit on the money in the pool by using it like any other fund in the mean time if they chose. A higher reward would encourage more auditors to step up and encourage a higher standard. All of this seems, to me, pretty obvious. VV may have done more to suggest what SHOULD be done, but it's not like he is the one investing now is it. Having said that, I think VV could now offer a simpler service that would take less time .. partial audits, merely verifying NAV, skills and alts, that wouldn't take long at all and at least offer SOME info. to prospective investmentors. This really is a thread highjacking conversation now though isn't it.


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