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voidvim
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Posted - 2005.01.20 19:38:00 -
[1]
Edited by: voidvim on 20/01/2005 19:43:49
As any body who as read the eve forum lately will know there has been a lot of debate about pos
(pilot owned station) and whether they are worth the effort and what should be done about it.
Well it seems the DEV's do listen to the player base, and their are a few changes coming in
the next patch that will have a huge impact on the pos industery.
link 1
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=136844&page=1
link 2
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=140535&page=1
Well it seems us skeptical of how pos work have won
/o/
\o\.
\o/
go skeptic go!
the 2 main aspect's which we said needed fixing, seem to have been dealt with.
The first one was making all construction components worth making and the second was to allow
each empires pos to be able to do all advanced reactions (or general losing the cpu
requirements). both are now on the test server.
make all pos to be able to do all reactions
silo changes 750 -> 500
with these changes the pos industery should be able to equal or beat the agent runners prices, as the per unit price is far less
advanced reaction changes
Crystalline Carbonite 15005000
Fernite Carbide 15005000
Titanium Carbide 15005000
Tungsten Carbide 15005000
Sylramic Fibers 13003000
Fulleride 11002400
Phenolic Composites 9001800
Nanotransistors 7001200
Hypersynaptic Fibers 500600
Ferrogel 300300
Fermionic Condensates 100150
One problem with CCP approach is that the market could be flooded with advanced materials
then constrution components.
CCP seem to fix their mistakes in ways the player base does not expect, I think it's
because iceland is to near the north pole, =) but thats just me.
Now if only agents will stop giving out constrution components and get more impalnts
instead. Hmmmm....
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Vicker Lahn'se
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Posted - 2005.01.20 19:50:00 -
[2]
I think agents shouldn't give out tech2 components at all now that there are POS's.
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Princess Sela
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Posted - 2005.01.20 20:14:00 -
[3]
not that your one to gloat or anything...
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flummox
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Posted - 2005.01.20 20:22:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Vicker Lahn'se
I think agents shouldn't give out tech2 components at all now that there are POS's.
but it's a reward. that's the point. what should they give out? Velators? Civ shield boosters? Station Containers?
what about the people who don't have a POS or access to one?
i know. not your concern. but it's still a valid set of questions.
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
LtCol RTButts
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Posted - 2005.01.20 20:39:00 -
[5]
when i see what i get from an agent day as tech2 component reward and what is needed to get the same items in the same amount of a POS, hmmmm. it is not really balanced what agents drop as reward in huge numbers. u need really manpower to get the same from a POS. that is the point where it gets unballanced. this can only be fixed by cut off the reward or limit it much more, otherwise the POS wont get really be able to pay for what they are inserted into the game ... to keep the more growing tech2 market running and lower the tech2 component costs. with more POS the pricewars will be harder, but for that people must see that the POS re the only mainsource to get tech2 components. this is currently not the situation and the comonents amounts of the agents re still higher than the POS production amounts.
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2005.01.20 21:27:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Feta Solamnia on 20/01/2005 22:22:11
Edited by: Feta Solamnia on 20/01/2005 21:29:34
what?
omg...
This means t2 prints are now worth 2x or 3x their previous worth (the profit margin just jumped)
it was so friggin simple: they just had to restrain agents spitting comps like mad. They just had to do it gradually and create small gaps of comp supply that would up the prices.
Do not think that t2 items will cost less, because their price is only dependent solely on suplly and demand, prodcost has nothing to do with it.
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Chade Malloy
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Posted - 2005.01.20 21:40:00 -
[7]
A yay on the incoming pos changes.
Seriously, the tech II component agent reward should stay. What can it do? You can¦t decide what bonus you get for a mission, you have no influence on it, and the volumes are small compared to the effort.
But you need pos bases at about four moons to get enough basic materials to run a few complex reactions in the end to build components, thats a multi-million isk investion, so it should be worth it in the end.
Not to mention the running costs...
Patience wins. |
Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2005.01.20 21:45:00 -
[8]
someone care to update a prodcost sheet and show us the new pricings?
I'm loosing my mind over here expecting the worstest-est-est.
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Killer Gandry
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Posted - 2005.01.20 21:56:00 -
[9]
Well, the agents better start out giving out other stuff then if the Aliance whiners get what they want.
10 missions for Interbus.
103 stationcontainers and a load of frozen food.
30 missions for Caldari Navy
Total T2 comps 86. None of them higher value then 8K a piece.
Total T2 comps on 20 lvl 4 missions of which I ensure you the time spend to get those comps is long since I solo allmost all lvl 4 missions.
300 T2 comps, 3 different types of each 100. Average price per Comp 7,5K
If I run missions with someone my bounties get split in half and maybe my share of the T2 comps aswell.
First of all the Alliances are hoarding the T2 BPO's like mad since they have the ISK.
Next they will hoard the POS interesting moons aswell now that it's easier to maintain the POS and get the reactions they need.
They can whine about if people want it allso to join one of their fat corporations, but what they just fail to understand in their clogged up heads is that there are corporations that don't want to loose their identity just to be able to fly in 0.0 without being ganked by "legal" pirates.
Better to try and fail, then to fail due to not trying |
Caesium
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Posted - 2005.01.20 22:00:00 -
[10]
There is going to be a need for way more t2 bps to be released, and or a severe reduction in build time on the prints.
As it is now there is allready a huge waiting list on many diff prints (Hac for example) and would be even longer if builders wern't pressing for 500-4000% markup. Now givin the situation where there is the potiential for unlimited supply of components, but still the bottle neck of production, this fosters an evniroment where compition on the component side will be huge as the ability to out produce demand exists, where as compition on the build end will be non existant as there simply is there is no ability to out produce demand.
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Alx Tuthowznd
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Posted - 2005.01.21 06:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Killer Gandry
They can whine about if people want it allso to join one of their fat corporations, but what they just fail to understand in their clogged up heads is that there are corporations that don't want to loose their identity just to be able to fly in 0.0 without being ganked by "legal" pirates.
Who's they? Fly in 0.0? Fat? I'm working my butt off just to keep my pos alive, and yes, im in a corp, no we're not fat, we're poor. Who's head is clogged? The problem isn't that components are easy to get from agents, the problem is how hard they are to get from a pos. 5 mill isk in ice per day better spit out more than that in returns. That simple.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.01.21 11:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Vicker Lahn'se
I think agents shouldn't give out tech2 components at all now that there are POS's.
The trouble is, if they stop the agent drops dead, supply will dry up completely until POS production comes online - you'll get a transition period when T2 will simply not be buildable.
Originally by: flummox
but it's a reward. that's the point. what should they give out? Velators? Civ shield boosters? Station Containers?
Implants? Or how about the king of rewards...pure, unadultarated isk? After all, the agent runners I know just sell any components they get - in that sense the agent reward to them is simply isk in a different form.
Originally by: flummox
what about the people who don't have a POS or access to one?
They do the same as everyone else when they want something they can't practically build themselves. They buy it from someone who can.
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Braaage
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Posted - 2005.01.21 11:23:00 -
[13]
Quote:
...... debate about pos (pilot owned station) ......
Player Owned Structure
___________________________________________
http://www.eve-tutor.com
Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online |
0seeker0
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Posted - 2005.01.21 11:26:00 -
[14]
Id be very happy if the drop rate of implants was increased at the expense of tech 2 stuff. (and i mean DROP rate not "fly around and look for the rarest thing that isnt on the market and then get one")
San.
Character "Widescreen" is a scammer; beware.
Check my bio for a list of known scammers.
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voidvim
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Posted - 2005.01.21 12:51:00 -
[15]
oh also coupling array have been chnage 125 to 100 cpu and the build times also have been reduced from 500 seconds to 50
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2005.01.21 13:11:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 21/01/2005 13:14:45
Originally by: flummox
Originally by: Vicker Lahn'se
I think agents shouldn't give out tech2 components at all now that there are POS's.
but it's a reward. that's the point. what should they give out? Velators? Civ shield boosters? Station Containers?
what about the people who don't have a POS or access to one?
i know. not your concern. but it's still a valid set of questions.
IMPLANTS IMPLANTS IMPLANTS I M P L A N T S
The whole idea of a functioning economy is that you have access to a small number of goods in large quantity and you then trade these goods with others that have access to other goods which you need. The only rewards you should get from an agent are things that can't be produced. This way if POS make the T2 components but agent runners get bpos to use them then there has to be some element of trade or else a very big corp that is able to do it all.
------------------------------
<Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
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Sybylle
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Posted - 2005.01.21 13:21:00 -
[17]
Link version for who read until there...
Here is Link I ...
And Link 2 ...
^^
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)=Oveur (proof)
"Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period" |
Tar om
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Posted - 2005.01.21 14:09:00 -
[18]
yes, drop the tech2 modules and restore implants. Everyone wants implants but especially the 0.0 dwellers who are going to be making POS rings to make tech2 components.
Empire people ship out ice and implants
0.0 people ship in tech2 components and mega/zyd
we all make tech2 ships/equip
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2005.01.21 14:44:00 -
[19]
Quote:
advanced reaction changes
Crystalline Carbonite 1500 5000
Fernite Carbide 1500 5000
Titanium Carbide 1500 5000
Tungsten Carbide 1500 5000
Sylramic Fibers 1300 3000
Fulleride 1100 2400
Phenolic Composites 900 1800
Nanotransistors 700 1200
Hypersynaptic Fibers 500 600
Ferrogel 300 300
Fermionic Condensates 100 150
Well what does this do for the moon mining people? I dont see anything but the vaule of the tech II come down. Does this mean more will buy our goods?
advanced reaction changes
Name <new price> <old price>
Crystalline Carbonite 28 93.33
Fernite Carbide
Titanium Carbide
Tungsten Carbide
Sylramic Fibers 60 138
Fulleride 175 381
Phenolic Composites 455.56 911
Nanotransistors 1683 2885
Hypersynaptic Fibers 3466.67 4160
Ferrogel 300 300
Fermionic Condensates 39466.67 59200
They should change the qty of needed Advance Materials at the tech II component level. Also not to allow Tech II components to be refined. This will stop everything. Consider the remification of stopping refining tech II components.
You will allow agent runners to compete with POS at the top only. Giving the POS owners a great allowance for market.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Robskiwarrior
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Posted - 2005.01.21 14:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: voidvim
(pilot owned station) and whether they are worth the effort and what should be done about it.
talking about being right and all... I thought it was "PLAYER owned Station"... we arnt in Jumpgate now...
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Dirtball
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Posted - 2005.01.21 15:05:00 -
[21]
I prefer being Left
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2005.01.21 15:13:00 -
[22]
You have to increase demand not supply. The more supply the less the value. Increase the Advance Material qty to make tech II components.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.01.21 16:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Harisdrop
You have to increase demand not supply. The more supply the less the value. Increase the Advance Material qty to make tech II components.
The problem is that too many of the items in the production chain are seen as fixed-value right now. You have the chain:
basic materials->advanced materials->T2 components->T2 products.
Now, the basic and advanced materials are generated in pos reactions, so at both stages you have to factor in the running cost of that pos. Now, the only cost of getting basic materials is running the pos, Hence:
value of basic materials > basic POS cost
To make production of basic materials viable. Similarly
value of advanced materials > value of basic materials + advanced POS cost
T2 component value > advanced mineral value + factory cost
T2 product value > T2 component value + factory cost.
Right now, the minimum value of basic materials is fixed by the cost of running the pos to extract them, which is as it should be. The problem is that the value of T2 components is also being fixed (or at least capped), by supply from agent runners.
The other big problem is that demand for T2 components is dependant on demand for T2 products. Unfortunately the current T2 market is capacity-limited (as shown by the insane profits being taken on the items). Hence, the demand for T2 components is pretty much fixed. Add that to component prices being fixed by agent runner supplies, and you come up with a fixed amount of money to be split between the lower levels. So if the current component prices aren't enough to cover the combined costs of the basic and advanced materials producers, no amount of tinkering with the advanced reactions will be able to solve the problem - making them need more basic materials will leave the advanced person short, make them need less, and the basic guy will come up short.
Increasing the amount of advanced material required to make a T2 component will make things even worse with the fixed component prices. The component producer won't be willing to pay more in total for his advanced materials, so price per unit will fall. But the cost of running the pos to make one unit remains the same, so the pos are still not viable.
The only place where there is "space" in the system is the T2 product producers. They can afford to pay more for their components and still make a profit on the product. But they won't pay more as long as they can get then for less from agent runners.
The only options that will actually help this situation are:
1) reduce pos operation cost so there is room for basic and advanced pos costs underneath the T2 component price layer
2) Phase out the dropping of T2 components by agents. This can't be done all at once as it would leave a vacuum while the new producers got set up. A gradual phasing out will lead to a gradual increase in component prices, with new pos-based suppliers coming online as the higher prices make it viable.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2005.01.21 16:18:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Increasing the amount of advanced material required to make a T2 component will make things even worse with the fixed component prices. The component producer won't be willing to pay more in total for his advanced materials, so price per unit will fall. But the cost of running the pos to make one unit remains the same, so the pos are still not viable.
What fixed component price! I have not seen any component price that is fixed. There are no fixed prices in Eve! THIS IS FALSE.
My key is that Eve is demand driven. If there are more buy orders than fair supply you will see prices go up. Fair prices are prices that resemble the price and QTY a buyer would buy an item. If there are just more supply the buyer will then be able to ask for less price and more qty. The key is to create a demand model that makes use of strictly created POS materials.
Forcing the refine of tech II into maybe less qty of advance materials could solve the agent reward system. Have the refine only give 50% advance materials at a 100% refine. Somthing must be done at the advance material level and just getting more Advance materials wont change a thing.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Xarol
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Posted - 2005.01.24 00:15:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Xarol on 24/01/2005 00:25:55
Edited by: Xarol on 24/01/2005 00:23:23
Voidvim, where did you get this POS improvement info? I`m waiting with baited breath and have tried to read everything. Where is the official word? Are the reaction amount changes you speak of all incorperated in the test server allready?
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.01.24 02:05:00 -
[26]
T2 components becoming more common? NOT A BAD THING.
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p0rnstar
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Posted - 2005.01.24 02:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Feta Solamnia
Edited by: Feta Solamnia on 20/01/2005 22:22:11
Edited by: Feta Solamnia on 20/01/2005 21:29:34
what?
omg...
This means t2 prints are now worth 2x or 3x their previous worth (the profit margin just jumped)
it was so friggin simple: they just had to restrain agents spitting comps like mad. They just had to do it gradually and create small gaps of comp supply that would up the prices.
Do not think that t2 items will cost less, because their price is only dependent solely on suplly and demand, prodcost has nothing to do with it.
comp supply
if you have an inty and a heavy assualt bpo you can see the %% gap in components..now techII bs are out in the next month...now think of those requirments. The pos are really needed for those, not your small items. its all about availability and time cost...not mineral cost
my time is worth alot more than a slight increase in minerals, this 'time' that i have is spent spending isk, now in the future i can hire people to feul my pos to construct components to make the finished product or bulk sell to people who dont want to spend time fishing around agents looking for t2 components.
the way ccp have done it, is the farest by far, and tbh the only give/take patch they have ever made since release
Tenacha Khan
~0~ |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.01.24 17:23:00 -
[28]
The point is that if POS-based production was fundamentally viable with the current level of agent-runner supply vs T2 producer demand, then recycling agent drops shouldn't matter.
Nerfing the refining of T2 components with the current larger economic balance would lead to a polarised market. The few, high-price components that are in reletively short supply from agent runners, and POS-vaible, would eventually become mostly supplied by POS. The rest, which the agent runners can supply at lower-than-POS-cost prices, will continue to be supplied by agent runners, and POS will never enter the market.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.01.24 17:23:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Matthew on 24/01/2005 17:22:59
Originally by: Harisdrop
What fixed component price! I have not seen any component price that is fixed. There are no fixed prices in Eve! THIS IS FALSE.
I didn't mean fixed as in "you will sell for this price and no other". My argument was that the current market conditions mean the T2 component price is fairly static, and is likely to remain that way. I reason this from two points. First, T2 production is currently limited far more by the amount of modules you can physically produce from the avalible BP's given their build times, than the supply of T2 components. Second, there is already a significant supply of T2 components coming from agent runners. The "normal" market prices of T2 components are those the market has levelled out to given the supply levels from the agent runners. You can consider it as the price at which agent runners will produce enough T2 components to satisfy the reletively static T2 market.
Thus, the agent runner supply sets a "market clearing price" at which all demand is filled by agent runner produce. If you then try and sell your POS-made components above that price, you are unlikely to sell them (at least in any worthwhile quantity), as anyone who wants any can still be supplied from the agent runner produce at the lower price. In this way, the agent runner supply is effectively placing a price cap on T2 component prices.
Originally by: Harisdrop
My key is that Eve is demand driven. If there are more buy orders than fair supply you will see prices go up. Fair prices are prices that resemble the price and QTY a buyer would buy an item.
True, but there is a catch - what a buyer considers a "fair" price, is not always the price he actually pays. Say total demand for Component X is 100 units/day (numbers for convenience, not realism, but the argument works whether it's 100 or 100million) and is willing to pay up to 500isk per unit. The previous agent-only supply market stabilised, supplying 100units/day at 100isk. A POS-based component builder now comes in, and his full-supply-chain cost is 125isk per unit. The only way for him to operate without a loss is to charge at least 125isk per unit. The buyer considers this higher price "fair", and so would not object paying it, except he can satisfy his full demand at 100isk per unit, so is going to do that.
There are three things that can fix things for the POS-producer. His costs could be reduced to below 100isk per unit so he can make a profit. Demand could rise - but that's not going to happen very fast as it's pretty much limited by the release of new T2 blueprints, and would have to rise far enough so that agent runners wouldn't supply all demand even at the increased 125isk/unit price. Lastly, supply from competing sources (i.e. agent-runner supplies) could fall, allowing the POS-producer to move in and soak up the now-unfulfilled demand.
Originally by: Harisdrop
If there are just more supply the buyer will then be able to ask for less price and more qty. The key is to create a demand model that makes use of strictly created POS materials.
Exactly. The problem is that the demand model for components (and thus everything further down the supply chain), is almost completely dictated by the supply of T2 blueprints, which is even more strictly controlled than the production of POS materials.
Originally by: Harisdrop
Forcing the refine of tech II into maybe less qty of advance materials could solve the agent reward system. Have the refine only give 50% advance materials at a 100% refine. Somthing must be done at the advance material level and just getting more Advance materials wont change a thing.
The problem isn't at the advanced materials level though. The problem is that T2 components are not price-flexible. The component builder will not pay more for his advanced materials than he can sell the resulting components for. Therefore, the most the advanced material maker can expect is:
Component_market_price - component_factory_cost
Therefore, if the component_market_price, as capped by agent-runner supplies, is too low, advanced material makers will either never make a profit on a sale, or never sell their materials.
Refining agent-dropped components for advanced materials is really just moving around the problem of agent-runner supply between individual T2 components. It serves as an equalizing measure - those components that are retailing from agent-runner supplies at very low rates will begin to be recycled and remade into those that are retailing at very high rates. Thus supply of the low-price components falls, and the high-price ones rise, leading to an equalisation of market prices. Of course, this will drag down the few high-priced components that currently make POS viable.
The point is that if POS-based production was fundamentally viable with the current level of agent-runner supply vs T2 producer demand, then recycling agent dr |
Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2005.01.24 22:41:00 -
[30]
The T2 component market will have a fixed demand since the number of each type of T2 BPO are limited to around 20 of each. (Some dev chat somewhere).
Those that have the BPO's have a lifetime monopoly (e.g. license to print money) and as such with no way for any new competition to come into the market place, prices will remain high.
Putting the T2 component BPO's on the market for a stupidly low price (5 mill each) now means that instead of forcing Tech 2 manufacturers to purchase components from several suppliers they now just purchase all the BPO's and buy up the base minerals and advanced materials needed.
Thus the opportunity to introduce actual supply chains for components into the manufacturing process has been borked, and we are back at where we are with Tech 1, with the cost of manufacture determined by base mineral and advanced material prices and everything else is self-manufactured! (Low BPO cost / BPCÆs and ease of Self-manufacture is the downfall of the Tech 1 market).
IMHO the advanced materials market will be flooded with cheap advanced materials anyway, since they will be the bi-product of the many POS that will spring up over the next few months, especially if cheaper / smaller POS come in (I'm not against this, more classes of POS is a good idea).
I can't believe CCP have borked the market up again. The Tech 2 'lottery' was the worst idea ever. The persons who get GIVEN the Tech 2 BS BPO's will become some of the richest people in EVE overnight and have huge control over the BS market.
What can others do about this? Nothing!!!
Even if you have 10 billion, 20 billion it doesn't matter if no one wants to sell their Tech 2 BS BPO, since they will be a license to print money, and lots of it!!!, complete with a guaranteed monopoly since no one else can enter the market via any other means.
Am I the only person who sees a problem with this?
All CCP had to do was put all Tech 2 BPO's on the market at a SIGNIFICANT price so that people would have to buy Tech 2 goods from the market and not self manufacture almost everything like most people do with Tech 1 now.
Tech 2 BPC's have already been made impractical to copy in bulk and thus if you wanted a Tech 2 BS you would either have to buy one from the market or invest (say for example) 3 Billion ISK in a Tech 2 BS BPO.
The same would apply to all other modules whose BPO's would cost less but still represent a significant investment. E.g. Tech 2 small blasters, if the BPO cost 300 mill most people are going to have to buy from the market unless they make a decision to invest and become a manufacturer.
Even big corps simply wont have the cash to invest in many BPO's and thus smaller corps can invest in cheaper less popular BPO's but still have a niche in the market.
By putting the BPO's on the market new competition can enter, and the market will grow. Prices will go down and demand goes up until a point is reached where the cost of a new corp investing hundreds of millions to billions on a BPO becomes not worth the investment, since it would take too long to make the money back.
Putting Tech 2 BPOÆs on the market does not mean a market crash. The reason the Tech 1 market crashed is due to cheap BPOÆs, BPCÆs, and ease of manufacturing, resulting in everyone just manufacturing most of their own stuff.
Put it this way. If Torpedo BPOÆs cost 300 mill each and there were no BPCÆs, how many people in EVE would be manufacturing their own torp's compared to now? Most med û large corps like mine own hundreds of BPCÆs and BPOÆs. If BPOÆs all cost upwards of 100mill+ I for one would still be buying low end modules like med shield boosters and small ammo off the market.
Just my few ISKÆs worth.
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