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War decs and neuts.

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Nicky's Tomb	Posted - 2011.01.08 12:26:00 - [1] Should neuts be able to assist war'ing corps? I understand there is little to nothing can be done about them scouting for war targets and calling in the actual waring fleet on a war target, but have neuts rep the waring fleet in high sec stinks. You get war decc'ed by a 2 man corp, you laugh. Both of them attack one of yours but you manage to get 4 ships to defend and you laugh again, but quickly your laughter turns to tears when 4 neuts show up with remote reps and start rep'ing them! Surely rep'ing gets you agro and thus, you should get Concorded as you are not at war. Discuss?
Lord Dragonmede	Posted - 2011.01.08 16:31:00 - [2] would be nice if it wasn't that I have occasionally been contracted myself to neutral rep somebody. I will sometimes sit outside of Jita station with a RRBS just for the random opportunity to rep a hauler being ganked by pirates just for the lulz. So your suggestion would ruin my fun being a pirate killjoy.
Conor Todaki ASTER MINER	Posted - 2011.01.08 21:24:00 - [3] As soon as you rep someone at war the enemy can shoot you if i am not mistaken about the mechanics. Repping a criminal definetly gets you ganked.
Nicky's Tomb	Posted - 2011.01.08 23:36:00 - [4] Edited by: Nicky''s Tomb on 08/01/2011 23:37:05 At least make any corp that helps a war'ing corp be added to the war. If a neut reps my target then I should be able to jump the little er later without reprise. It's being abused as I see it. An alliance gets one member corp to declare war, while the other support without the hassle of high sec free agro. The war'ing corp starts fights the unwar'ing corps support without the risk. Yes, I know in the particular fight you can shoot the reper, but... still I don't thing the mechanics are fair. I suppose you could declare war yourself against the supporting corps, but that just smells of burnt camel ***.
Nicky's Tomb	Posted - 2011.01.09 00:12:00 - [5] Originally by: Lord Dragonmede I will sometimes sit outside of Jita station with a RRBS just for the random opportunity to rep a hauler being ganked by pirates just for the lulz. While I understand this could produce lolz, I think you need to get a life! I suppose it beats spinning the station, but seriously, there must be something more productive you could do :)
Lord Dragonmede	Posted - 2011.01.09 15:49:00 - [6] Originally by: Nicky's Tomb Originally by: Lord Dragonmede I will sometimes sit outside of Jita station with a RRBS just for the random opportunity to rep a hauler being ganked by pirates just for the lulz. While I understand this could produce lolz, I think you need to get a life! I suppose it beats spinning the station, but seriously, there must be something more productive you could do :) Seriously? If I wanted to do something productive, would I be on a computer playing EvE? Dude.... seriously.....
Anonymous Lemming	Posted - 2011.01.09 19:28:00 - [7] yeah tbh they sould remove nuetral repping from high sec. The only real purpose for nuet repping in high sec is griefing, nothing more.
Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.01.09 20:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Lord Dragonmede would be nice if it wasn't that I have occasionally been contracted myself to neutral rep somebody. I will sometimes sit outside of Jita station with a RRBS just for the random opportunity to rep a hauler being ganked by pirates just for the lulz. So your suggestion would ruin my fun being a pirate killjoy. ... That is hilarious. I think I might start doing this from time to time when bored... Gullible
Eddy North Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.10 05:01:00 - [9] Edited by: Eddy North on 10/01/2011 05:02:14 Originally by: Aiwha Originally by: Lord Dragonmede would be nice if it wasn't that I have occasionally been contracted myself to neutral rep somebody. I will sometimes sit outside of Jita station with a RRBS just for the random opportunity to rep a hauler being ganked by pirates just for the lulz. So your suggestion would ruin my fun being a pirate killjoy. ... That is hilarious. I think I might start doing this from time to time when bored... yeah till the noob in the hauler with autotarget back accidentallys on you then gets concorded then you for repping a criminal(for shooting you lol) or does something genius like fire off a ecm burst with 10 random neutral jita Cockroaches locked on him
San Severina Minmatar One Point 0	Posted - 2011.01.10 06:55:00 - [10] The only time I've tried neut repping I got alpha-ed by the opposing Tempest, am I missing something? __________________________________________________ No sympathy for the Devil! Always remember that....

Lemmy Kravitz Minmatar Rebirth.	Posted - 2011.01.10 07:57:00 - [11] make neutral repping give dock timer, problem solved. ------------------------------------------------- "Vae Victis" -Brennus
Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.01.10 08:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Eddy North Edited by: Eddy North on 10/01/2011 05:02:14 Originally by: Aiwha Originally by: Lord Dragonmede would be nice if it wasn't that I have occasionally been contracted myself to neutral rep somebody. I will sometimes sit outside of Jita station with a RRBS just for the random opportunity to rep a hauler being ganked by pirates just for the lulz. So your suggestion would ruin my fun being a pirate killjoy. ... That is hilarious. I think I might start doing this from time to time when bored... yeah till the noob in the hauler with autotarget back accidentallys on you then gets concorded then you for repping a criminal(for shooting you lol) or does something genius like fire off a ecm burst with 10 random neutral jita Cockroaches locked on him Hey, risk vs. Reward. Risk Concodorkkened, reap ganker tears. Gullible
Soldarius Caldari Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.01.10 09:26:00 - [13] Answer to neut reps: Bring more ships/toons. Originally by: CCP Shadow ...I cannot guarantee (my) sobriety or decency.
Toxic Paradox	Posted - 2011.01.10 16:32:00 - [14] I would suggest making RR show up on KM's as involved parties. This would make the neut RR's more obvious. Secondly it would make a lot of players KM's reflect the fact they are not the Leet solo PvPers they like to portray. If players want to use the tactic and bring nuet RR to the battle then the alt should also be put on display and the player lose the solo kill status. Regardless it's a well known, well practiced tactic for HS war. If you want a good tactic for countering this bring your own RR or hire them.
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2011.01.10 20:34:00 - [15] It would be nice to have a mechanic that exposed neutral reppers to more than a 15 min. aggression timer. But I'm at a loss as to what..... I don't think concording them is the best option, as it just removes the ability. The ability should be there, it just needs a stronger risk element beyond the 15min timer. I want to lean towards giving the offended corp a window of time to declare war on the Neutral's corp/alliance for little/no isk, ideally w/out the 24hr wait... Unfortunately, I can see this being heavily abused, and I don't think it would work on NPC corps... Perhaps some type of kill rights on the neutral should be given... but it needs some thorough thought as to potential abuses.
Lemming EVERADIO'FAN Gallente	Posted - 2011.01.12 06:16:00 - [16] Edited by: Lemming EVERADIO''FAN on 12/01/2011 06:16:52 As stated above, Neutral RR's are legal, as they turn red flashy to those involved in the war or combat. Just adjust your fleet to gank them or drive them off the field. Few "neutrals" are willing to stay in the fight if you primary and go after the neutral RR's. And does surprisingly well in drying up their RR support in future engagements. The only thing that isn't legal and is petitionable (and hard to catch) is Neutral Fleet boosting. If all else fails, drag them into low sec and kill them all.
Gurgeh Murat	Posted - 2011.01.12 10:14:00 - [17] Correct me if Im wrong (dont use them, so im not 100%) but isnt the main problem with neut reppers that they can dock straight away if they start pulling fire? THAT seems drastically unfair, that they can assist a WT but are almost impossible to kill unless you can alpha them?
Gordin Brott Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.12 10:21:00 - [18] Originally by: Gurgeh Murat Correct me if Im wrong (dont use them, so im not 100%) but isnt the main problem with neut reppers that they can dock straight away if they start pulling fire? THAT seems drastically unfair, that they can assist a WT but are almost impossible to kill unless you can alpha them? That is correct. It means that the riskto them while engaging on a station is virtually zero. The main negative effect of this is that it tends to shackle a large portion of highsec warfare to within the docking ring of a station. As highsec neutral repping is virtually universal by at least one side in any war, mobile engagements tend not to happen as they feel unsafe outside of their repping umbrella.
Fer DeLance	Posted - 2011.01.12 12:03:00 - [19] Neutral RR, ruins a large portion of high-sec gameplay. Beeing able to shoot the neutral RR, means nothing at all. They will simply dock, or even they will attack you too, doubling the incoming damage. If they are in a logistic ship, they will propably be 70km away, making them invulrable in disruptors, they can just fly away if they take any damage, let alone that not all ships can aggro them at that distance. If they are next to a gate, they will just jump to the other side. If they are next to station, they will just dock, and undock and continue repping, then re-dock etc etc... Neutral RR is a crappy mechanism. Concord should kill the neutral RR, as they have not payed for the war, they have not any logical reason to interfere in a battle that it's not of their own, and they can dramatically change the outcome of a battle.
Nicky's Tomb	Posted - 2011.01.12 13:09:00 - [20] Edited by: Nicky''s Tomb on 12/01/2011 13:16:59 Another option, sort of mentioned already, is to add the neutral reps entire corp into the war at no cost of ISK to the agressed corp/alliance. If they want to get involved in someone elses fight, then let them get involved the whole way! If not adding them to the war, at least give kill rights for the duration of the war to anyone who assists a war effort, including anyone in fleet during conflict, anyone that reps or logis. I feel the worst bit is, in a War Dec the way it is, you have no idea what exactly you are up against. It's also easy abused. An alliance can create a holding corp with 2 or 3 members and use it to war dec. Then they simple support and scout with the main corp. I think the term is cowardice.

Lemming EVERADIO'FAN Gallente	Posted - 2011.01.12 21:21:00 - [21] Ok, as Its been said earleir, after you sucessfully shoot one of them (neutral RR's) you have access to shoot them for 15 minutes... This is where propper fleet composition will win the day. Sniper fits work wonders here, against the docking/undocking SOB's and the primary target who is station hugging. Bring a cepter or a remote sensor dampener or two in a few of your fleets mid slots to counter the 70km, out of docking ring, guys, and again, utilize your snipers. And sometimes you do WANT those neutral RR's to undock in a DPS boat. Because if they do that, they arnt repping anymore and you fleet can ground and pound them and your original WT's. This means the DPS required to kill each ship goes down, but decreases the amount of time you have before your ships pop. I would suggest spider tanking your fleet in regards to those that are designated at "station engagement' range. Just don't bring too much ECM. ECM kills aggro counters and forces your target to de-agress. Giving them a free "Starg jamming the dock button" option.
Ackwell Caldari Tiera Javelin Ltd.	Posted - 2011.01.12 21:45:00 - [22] Originally by: Nicky's Tomb Edited by: Nicky''s Tomb on 08/01/2011 23:37:05 It's being abused as I see it. An alliance gets one member corp to declare war, while the other support without the hassle of high sec free agro. The war'ing corp starts fights the unwar'ing corps support without the risk. There is no possibility for only one corp in alliance to have a wardec without the others. Wardecs are always alliance wide and affect every corp that is in the decced/deccing alliance...
Fer DeLance	Posted - 2011.01.13 01:45:00 - [23] Lemming, everything you said makes sense and is a good countermeasure to neutral RR. But, you assume that you have everything you need handy to do that job. Tackler to disprupt the logistic ship, dampener to dampen it, a couple of snippers to kill, possibly a couple of tankers to take all the damage while all this thing is going on, maybe a damage dealer to kill close range DPS neutral remote reppers, and a logistic on your side wouldn't be a bad idea either... well, all that is a fleet. When we talk about fleets all that is possible to happen... What i am saying is that neutral RR, ruins small scale battles, 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 4 etc.... If 3 neutral RRs jump into the fight, the fight is over. You can't have everything you imagine you can have to counter the effect of the neutral RRs, unless of course you are in a relatevly big fleet as described above. After all, it's not about what you can do to counter the RRs. It's about the fact that there is no logic behind neutral RR. It's something that goes the opposite way of the other strict empire engagment rules.
Lemming EVERADIO'FAN Gallente	Posted - 2011.01.13 07:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Fer DeLance ... Were running into a general (and very common) failure to build a fleet necessary to handle the most common high sec engagement wars. High sec wars you should be bringing appropraite ships. An Intercepter and Two tripple plated Megathorns are a minimum for station camping. Damps and other ewar come from your midslots, not whole ships. 4 man fleet should be a 1-2x Snipers (BS or BC), 1-2x Station Huggers (BS - Spider tank if able), 1-0 Tacklers, 1-0 utility boat (neuts or ewar). Its an issue of people not thinking out fleet compositions to where you will be fighting. The general lack of intercepter usage in high sec wars gives your targets a huge advantage (Free movement through gates and traversing whole systems). If you can snag them on a gate, you elimate the station advantage, and increase the likelyhood that you force an engagement when they arn't ready. The next biggest mistake is to fight these highsec wars in and around trade hubs (Like Dodixi or Heck) at the trade station. Its impossible to watch local and waaay to many variables to come in at you. If they hole up at a station like that its time to get the cepters and catch em when they leave. At that point you are effectively system camping them in and making them nervous about undocking in general.
Jane Jacobs	Posted - 2011.01.13 15:53:00 - [25] Should neuts be able to assist war'ing corps? Yes Neuts can work for either side. This can work in the favor of the griefers, or in the favor of the targets. The problem is not the mechanic, but rather tactics. The tactic of many of these griefer corps is to keep the war party small for deception. You look at the corp info and see 2-5 man corp and think to yourself, Ha! we got these griefers, lets go fight them. They make their stand at station and play docking games. They let you think you are the aggressor. You bring in many ships you think that will take down their triple plated Megatrons. You shoot them down to armor, mouth-watering in anticipation of a kill, then all of a sudden, some neuts come in and rep them...as they planned. How do you counter this? Be prepared. 1) Higher a Logistics corp to come in and rep you when needed. 2) Be ready for the neutral logistics by not committing all your forces. Make a stealth sniper fleet. When the logistics start repping, your sniper fleet uncloaks and kills the logistics ships. In most cases, I think the advantage goes to the targets, not the griefers. Griefers only go for easy targets who can not field large fleets or high skill level (T2) weapons and ships. Therefore, the logistics will help the targets survive in their out-gunned ships. This is a matter of tactics, not mechanics.
TimMc Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2011.01.13 20:01:00 - [26] I just wish they would go back, yes I say back, to concord killing neutral remote reppers. Neutral RR is the cancer that makes empire pvp no fun. Either RR needs to give 60 second timer for docking, or needs to give concord aggression.
Cordo Draken	Posted - 2011.01.13 21:02:00 - [27] Originally by: Jane Jacobs Should neuts be able to assist war'ing corps? Yes Neuts can work for either side. This can work in the favor of the griefers, or in the favor of the targets. The problem is not the mechanic, but rather tactics. THIS ^^. Well said. The fact is, too many ppl lack the ability to think tactically. RR is a game Mechanic, get over it. Grow some hair on your sac and figure a way around the issue instead of Whinning about it. This is as bad of a whine as the ***ing about Falcons! It's not going anywhere so deal with it or go back to WOW or some other mindlessly ****ed game.
Toxic Paradox	Posted - 2011.01.13 21:54:00 - [28] I still feel the balanced answer is to make the neutral RR show on KM's as "involved parties" as they are "involved". This will reduce the transparency of a small corp, and have kill mails reflect a more accurate picture of a kill. If neutral RR's want to be involved in HS wars then they should have to pay a price for doing so. Best answer is still preparing a proper fleet. This includes your own/hired Neutral RR. also remember that %90 of the time it's not just the one WT/red you see.


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