I understand that being transgendered is rough, n'all, and it's good to have a group of people to get along with, but really...

I don't care what your gender is.

I support the idea for all my trans friends.

Someone else should probably run it.

I support the idea for all my trans friends.

Someone else should probably run it.

Only bit I'm curious about...

Is this for those who are transgendered biologically (either through choice or not) or psychologically, or would you consider these equally under the purview of this new channel?

Well alrighty. But since we're all here, I gotsta ask...

Is there a general trans opinion on Lady Gaga? Hero? Bad example? Not related?

I swear that she's not a standardized "girl", but I couldn't really blame someone for not coming out and saying so. Rough situation to have to learn to deal with.

Gender is not biological, sex is.
Gender is a social construct.

This is false. Gender is the state of your sex, eg. male, female, or other.
Gender identity can be defined yourself and your society.
But gender has a definite value.

Incorrect.

Gender is not the same as your assigned sex, Gender is not static either. Female "gender" roles in the middle east for example are not the same as Female "gender" roles in the united states.

While I never would attend a "special" channel based on my RL person, be it gender, sexuality, social standing or whatever, I can understand why people feel the need to find other people "like them" in a virtual community like EVE... so, good luck, by all means... just make sure you know what you are doing... In my opinion, a gaming community should never be a forum to discuss or, worse consult about possible psychological conditions... that's what therapists are for.

If all you are planning to achieve is a place where transgendered people can talk about topics that concearn them besides EVE... well, I guess there will be no harm in that...

Sidenote: Beeing transgendered is NO sickness in any meaning of the word...

I would not have done this if there was not already significant demand for it.

Yes you would have. You are a confused attention ***** who wants to be in the spotlight.

So let me, for the sake of example, be defensive:
In which case, allow me to express my own opinion. I find this channel degrading to women, due to it's similar nature to WGOE. To blindly draw an analog between "sex" as you call it (what wgoe is founded upon, and is a hard classification) and a social construct (what tgoe is founded on) lessens the meaning of the hard classification. Anyone can change their social image, but very few people have the resources to change their actual "sex", or gender, as the rest of the world refers to it.

So forgive me, but I'm offended by the grouping together of WGOE and TGOE, as it makes WGOE sound cheap and invalid.

But, that's just my /opinion/.

@Lilliana: Sorry, but you aren't entirerly correct there... in some cases, gender is neither defined by the birth physis, nor psychological background or social conditioning...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

That's bull****

That's bullshit.

The idea of a "standard" for how a "girl" should act or behave is something that is heavily influenced by culture and religion.
Somebody from another country might think of lady gaga in one way in terms of female gender roles and somebody from yet another country or area may have a different opinion.

I do not speak for everybody, so I can not make a statement about lady gaga and claim that all trans people have the same opinion because trans is an umbrella term that encompasses a diverse group of people.

I wasn't referring to the how he or she acted. I just think she moves like a guy, and looks like a guy that's had work done. And I was just curious as to if she was a sort of symbol for some people. Like how gay people gravitated to Cher (for whatever reason...)

if you want to support such a radical viewpoint as having a ***** and not being a man/male, you should probably be tolerant of people with the viewpoint that who have a ***** are men/male

just saiyan, intolerance works both ways Xenuria you massive hypocritical bigot

Obviously it has nothing to do with winning the support of niche groups' votes for CSM.

The couple of dozen or so who might vote based on this are sure to swing the polls.

Listen buddy, just because non-cis gendered people are not a majority in this game doesn't mean they're any less important. I suggest you check your cis privilege at the door. You don't know how hard it is to be anything other than a straight white male in today's society.

non-cis gendered people]

If you say you're proud to be straight, or proud to be white, everyone gets offended and everyone views you as a supremacist.

If you say you're proud to be part of any minority, trans, black, etc, people think you're some sort of equality activist. The last 50 years haven't just seen civil rights and equality, but also exploiting the majority's guilt has taken it several steps to far. Minority communities don't deserve any special treatment.

That's why groups like this annoy me. Having a trans group seems equivalent to having a straight and white group. Wouldn't that bother you?

If you are straight and white, you haven't grown up to experience any additional life hurdles related to institutionalised shaming of who you are. You haven't grown up being made to feel a sense of "otherness" about yourself, and thus you can't relate. To quote Eric Zorn in the Chicago Tribune, "the expression "Straight Pride" can only be read as a gratuitous and contemptuous response to the suggestion that gay people not be marginalized."



Equal treatment isn't special treatment. See, again, you're unable to relate because you've never grown up with the hurdles you encounter if you're minority. Ethnic minorities still often encounter hate crime. LGBT people still encounter institutionalised discrimination in the form of bullying in schools (which is endemic and teachers often fail to deal with), denial of legal recognition of relationships and the rights that go with it, and stigmatisation and ostracism in public up to and including the threat of violence if it's apparent you're a same-sex couple or a transsexual.



Yes, because I'll repeat it, "the expression "Straight Pride" can only be read as a gratuitous and contemptuous response to the suggestion that gay people not be marginalized."

The idea of a trans* group is great. But not led by Xenuria.

Ultimately, this seems to be a nice big post of you trying to justify why minorities are entitled to special treatment. How about we judge people based on their merits or accomplishments instead? Honestly, you can't say that straight white people haven't experienced any additional hurdles related to institutionalized shaming, because that just isn't the case. It's entirely possible for minorities to be raised in supporting environments, and it's entirely possible for a straight white child to be hated for any number of reasons. Some parents just hate their kids. Some kids just hate other kids. You don't have to have any specific skin color, income bracket, or sexual preference to be bullied or hated.

I can say, specifically, that saw a great deal of bullying growing up. Your point on bullying is entirely invalid, since non-LGBT people encounter it too. Maybe you were one of the luck few to never get your head slammed into a locker or shoved down the stairs. Lucky you.

In cities near where I live it's also become common place for hate crimes to occur against rich straight white individuals. You're obviously not familiar with "yuppie hate crime" as it's referred to, but there's just as much, if not more discrimination against the straight white group, particularly the wealthier ones. I'm not sure what type of rose-colored shades you're wearing to pretend that there isn't just as much hate crime against straight white people.

I also don't know what type of background you came from the claim that you faced "additional life hurdles", because frankly, most minorities and people of alternative sexual preference flat out won't. They'll grow up the same as anyone else. I had friends of other races, and friends of other sexual preferences, and quite a few of them had significantly less trouble than I did. So don't tell me I can't relate. All you're doing is justifying special treatment for LGBT and minorities that flat out isn't deserved. I guarantee you that if we sat down and compared how "difficult" our lives were, that we both had our hardships... and combined, no one in this thread suffered anything remotely serious, given by the fact that we're here today, literate, and have internet access, and $15 a month to spend on EVE (which puts us all in the world's wealthiest 1%).

:snip:

Racial bias
Among the single-bias hate crime incidents in 2010, there were 3,949 victims of racially motivated hate crime. A closer examination of these victim data showed that:

70.0 percent were victims of an offenderGÇÖs anti-black bias.
17.7 percent were victims of an anti-white bias.

Religious bias
Of the 1,552 victims of an anti-religion hate crime:

4.2 percent were victims of an anti-Catholic bias.
3.0 percent were victims of an anti-Protestant bias.

Sexual-orientation bias
Of the 1,528 victims targeted due to an offenderGÇÖs sexual-orientation bias:

1.4 percent were victims of an anti-heterosexual bias.
1.9 percent were victims of an anti-bisexual bias.

Sure, hate crimes against the LGBT community are more common, that doesn't make them more significant, and it certainly doesn't make them more important. It certainly don't think we can invalidate any concern or hate crime just because it's less frequent.

There were still 21 hate crimes against heterosexuals, 111 hate crimes against Christians, and a staggering 699 hate crimes against whites in the US during 2010. Just because there were more hate crimes against other groups doesn't make the crimes that were committed against these groups any less important.

If one of those 21 straight individuals to a stand for himself, or herself, would you really tell them not to seek support from a group, because showing any "pride" would belittle the validity of LGBT groups? If anything, what you're suggesting is demeaning to LGBT groups, simply because you're painting them as inconsiderate of the issues that effect straight people.

Besides, the OP didn't say "Persecuted trans gamers of Eve", so your requirement that a group face additional hardship to be valid is somewhat moot in the first place. There are plenty of people who could potentially join TGOE who may have had a perfectly cushy life with no gender-identity related persecution whatsoever. So them getting an exclusive pride group while straight people can't certainly doesn't make sense.

Additionally, my point in posting these statistics was to prove that these hate crimes are a very real issue; not to compare "who has the bigger issue", because hate crimes are an issue regardless of how frequent they're occurring, simply by the fact that they are occurring.

If you really want to tell those 699 white people that the crimes committed against them don't matter as much as the crimes committed against another community, then go right ahead. But you really don't have the right to make that call.

These aren't incredibly low numbers. Comparing 7.2% (christian) to 12.7% Islam or 9.1% other, these numbers are all relatively close to each other on the overall scale... are you going to say that Christians or Muslims suffering persecution don't have the right to stand up for themselves simply because MORE Jewish people suffer persecution? That doesn't seem fair.

Sure, there's only one hate crime against whites in the US for every 3-4 hate crimes against blacks... but that's still within an order of magnitude. White's are still the second-most persecuted race within the US. And they have every bit as much pride as any other group.

The proportion of whites experiencing hate crimes is also far lower, due to blacks being a minority group. If you are black, or gay, or Jewish, or transgendered, you are far more likely to experience hate crime, simply due to the fact that there are fewer of you in the population but more hate crimes occurring against your group.

"whaa whaa why doesn't everyone conform to my worldview"
That is to say, contrary to popular belief, that lots of opinions are wrong.


I for one endorse more safe spaces in online communities, anyone who's offended really needs to find better things to be upset about such as transphobia.

ah don't worry mr straight, white, christian man. you may have been a victim of a horrific hate crime, but at least it's not commonplace! lets tackle the real issues here, a small group of people want to go against nature and biology are being called freakish for promoting their views in public!

yeah laktos i understand what you are saying, and if it was as you say, i would have no problem with it.

but the people in that channel have extreme intolerance towards any view outside of their own. i've tried to explain how some people don't accept the idea of having a ***** and not being male, and i got shouted down and told i was being a bigot. that kind of hypocrisy and irony makes me hella mad, and is the main reason i probably appear to have an agenda against these people. when a group that strives so hard to be tolerated is completely intolerant of the majority of peoples views, they honestly don't deserve the time of day

Equal treatment isn't special treatment. See, again, you're unable to relate because you've never grown up with the hurdles you encounter if you're minority. Ethnic minorities still often encounter hate crime. LGBT people still encounter institutionalised discrimination in the form of bullying in schools (which is endemic and teachers often fail to deal with), denial of legal recognition of relationships and the rights that go with it, and stigmatisation and ostracism in public up to and including the threat of violence if it's apparent you're a same-sex couple or a transsexual.
.

That's bullshit. People have been bullied and had hurdles long before this was ever an issue. People aren't going to accept other ideas if they're shoved down their throat. I'm a damn minority IRL and I hate how everyone bitches about how it's hard and whatever complaints are used as an excuse.

There's violence on both sides, it's just no one wants to ever bring the minority side because then you're seen as "racist " or "homophobic" or "intolerant" or whatever it's popular to not be these days

RE: Alleykat.

I agree with much of what you have said on a level of principle.I think though, that there has to be some perspective in this debate.

Drawing a relationship between restrictions on who can join a chat channel to the horrors of WW2 is slightly far-fetched and unfair.

And if we are going to say that the standard is zero discrimination in chat channels, then how far is that going to go. Are you then going to stop people from recruiting for a corp based on specific timezones or nationalities? etc.

I think there is an important distinction to be made about these things based on their intent. If the intent of the channel is exclusion, then this is usually a bad thing. But I don't believe this is the intent of the channel.

You also have to take into account the situation surrounding the members of the channel. To be a transexual at this time is a dangerous thing. I would imagine many people that identify themselves as such do not reveal their sexuality in normal channels or with corp members for fear of bullying and harassment, or even that their friends might not treat them the same as before. This channels stated intent is not to act as an elitist group based on exclusivity, but rather a group that is inclusive of transexual people. Unfortunately because of the attitude many people have towards transexuals there is a strong argument to be made that a group that wants to be a safe inclusive place for transexuals must be exclusive of non-transexuals to achieve its aim.

Of course in a perfect world the TGoE channel would be set public and everyone would be invited. We don't live in that world though, and so a policy of zero discrimination allowed under any circumstances is unrealistic and unfair to those who discriminate on entry to a group in order to create a place they feel comfortable to be themselves in.

Name me one person in EVE-Online that has acted in a bullying or harrasing way towards transexuals, and your point has merit.

Being honest, If I were in that channel, I might not like the people in it - not because of their trans-genderism, but because I might not like them as human beings. In your mind, this might be perceived as agressive behaviour towards trans-gender.

A little bit like...not liking someone in the workplace because they steal your parking space, but because they are homosexual, you have to not have a go at them?

What about in war? Am I allowed to shoot enemy soliders? What about if they are female? Is it sexist to shoot them? Or is it sexist to NOT shoot them? (women should be treated equally)

What? Do we even live in the same world? Many people are repulsed, offended and hateful towards someone who identifies as transexual and because of this they would discriminate against anyone they knew was transexual. I mean, ffs, look at the amount of discrimination that exists in our society against gays and lesbians, and you get some idea of what a lot (im not saying all) of transexuals would face, only ramped up to an even higher level.

I suppose next you are going to tell me that sexism and racism no longer exists and that I am out-dated for thinking so?



Nice job putting words in my mouth. Care to explain exactly why I would think these things. This whole time I have been talking about discrimination against transsexual people because of their transexuality.