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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.09 03:50:00 -
[1]
I am not the only player who thinks information is too readily available to the masses. Between kill mails, Local, and the map statistics it is actually a challenge to be an unknown quantity.
So what I aim to do here is effectively remove easy passive intel methodology. There have been numerous ideas fronted about how to do this, but nobody has addressed the secondary issues that will arise. Such as d-scan being relatively cumbersome and myopic by design, probe mechanics, lack of effective system control tools, station situational awareness or lack thereof, and the way the tactical grid works.
The goals of this thread are as follows:
Remove Local as an intelligence tool.
Remove Killmails, potentially replacing it with a less information loaded system.
Lessen the immediate accuracy of map statistics.
Fix D-Scan or replace with something else.
Adjust Probing mechanics.
Introduce a more active method of sovereignty system port control.
Lessen the absolute effects of cloaking devices, possibly by introducing a decloaking module for ships that can use covert cloaks.
Increase situational awareness while docked.
Let's start with killmails. Killmails and killboards have been around for as long as I've been playing and they have only gotten more accurate and informative. Possible solutions could be removal of kill mails entirely or reduction in the amount of information they supply to merely the who, where, and what ships. No fitting information should be in these mails, let that be a mystery to be solved by loot. I'm personally for the removal of them entirely since they only promote carebear pvp aka Blobbing and Hotdroppping.
Local is a tougher sell, while everyone agrees on principle that Local needs to be changed, rarely are actual solutions unanimously accepted. This is typically because other game mechanics need adjustment and players in general never figure out that more than one thing can be changed at a time. I personally think Local needs to be delayed, requiring you to speak before you show up in it.
Map statistics can be helpful, but certain information can actually reveal too much. The only things map statistics should show is average number of pilots within the last 24 hrs and average number of ships destroyed within the last 24 hrs. Any more info than that and you cross into the realm of being able to 'Local' analyze a system without ever jumping into it.
The Directional Scanner is a relic that has never actually been an effectively useful tool other than for some niche uses. The main problem is the range. I propose that a ship's sensor strength determines the range of d-scan. This also allows larger and slower ships more warning that trouble is coming. If your sensor strength is 33, your d-scan range is 33 au. D-scan should be added to the overview window as a seperate tab. D-scan will refresh automatically every 5 seconds when it is the active tab, or at will when player clicks the refresh button. Overview and D-scan are mutually exclusive, only one will function at a time and that is determined by a toggle.
Probes no longer provide a 'BM'. Instead you find a target using D-scan, select it, and activate the probe launcher. The probe will have a chance similar to how ECM works now to track or lose a target. The sensor strength and signature radius will impact success differently. If the probe locks on, it launches and becomes an entity that the owner can warp to (similar to warp to fleet member). The probe will chase the target till the target exits system or the probe duration ends. Probes are vulnerable to ECM Bursts.
Removing Local will create a need for a more proactive means of controlling access to sovereign systems:
Port of Entry Tower
POS style tower needing fuel and having half the fittings of a normal tower. This tower can only be anchored in sovereign systems 100 km from a stargate or outpost. The tower can only support weapon and ew structures and has no bubble.
Continued...
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.09 04:30:00 -
[2]
As a rule, cloaking in Eve is fine. It is the utter lack of anti cloaking tools that is the problem. However the paranoia surrounding the 'AFK Cloaker' infection will cease to be a problem with the other changes listed in this Compendium. Yet there is still a definable need for a way to actively counter a cloaking device on grid. Most people think there should be a way to deactivate a cloak, but I have another thought on that:
Lightwave Distortion Rectifier Array
Can only be used by ships that can fit covert ops cloaks. Has Small, Medium, and Large versions (Large being unused until the advent of BS cov ops. The module does heat damage to all cloaking devices that are active within the aoe similar to overheating and subject to heat damage reduction effects (excluding Thermodynamics skill). LDRAs will damage any other fitted LDRAs within range (same ship included).
Duration: Small 5 s, Medium 10 s, Large 20 s
Heat Damage: 100%, 200%, 400%
Radius: 15 km, 30 km, 60 km
CPU: 10000 (reduced by role bonuses)
PG: 10, 100, 1000
Situational Awareness when docked at a station needs to be adjusted. Not because players prepared outside of a station shouldn't be able to camp it, but because undocking into a complete unknown should not need to happen. Allow a 250 km d-scan inside the station. This will give a docked player an idea what is outside, but not who or why.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.09 19:17:00 -
[3]
Nobody even going to troll this? Color me surprised.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Alexander Jameison
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Posted - 2011.01.09 20:43:00 -
[4]
You've lumped a bunch of changes into one suggestion, and they're all game-breakingly bad. I expect most Assembly-Hall frequenters have come to expect nothing less from you, thus the lack of response.
You can't make "remove local", "nerf cloaking", "remove killmails" and "nerf probing" more palatable by lumping them all together into one package.
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Henry Haphorn
Gallente Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2011.01.09 21:26:00 -
[5]
The biggest reason why you didn't get much response is because much of what you proposed was already talked about and the vast majority of the players just don't agree with such changes.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Shadow Confederation
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Posted - 2011.01.09 21:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Henry Haphorn The biggest reason why you didn't get much response is because much of what you proposed was already talked about and the vast majority of the players just don't agree with such changes.
Be honest with the guy... we all know he's full of ####. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.09 21:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Alexander Jameison You've lumped a bunch of changes into one suggestion, and they're all game-breakingly bad. I expect most Assembly-Hall frequenters have come to expect nothing less from you, thus the lack of response.
You can't make "remove local", "nerf cloaking", "remove killmails" and "nerf probing" more palatable by lumping them all together into one package.
Why are they bad? They all look good to me, even the ones that nerf me.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.09 21:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Originally by: Henry Haphorn The biggest reason why you didn't get much response is because much of what you proposed was already talked about and the vast majority of the players just don't agree with such changes.
Be honest with the guy... we all know he's full of ####.
I won't stop suggesting good ideas simply because everyone else wants EvE to stay or increase its carebearism.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Cassina Lemour
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Posted - 2011.01.10 00:53:00 -
[9]
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Corina Jarr
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Posted - 2011.01.10 01:07:00 -
[10]
I personally don't agree with most of the listed suggestions (but that is all they are is a personal opinion).
However, I definitely agree that we should know more about what is outside of the station. Doesn't have to be much, just a little would be nice.
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Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2011.01.10 02:32:00 -
[11]
it is indeed to easy to get information in eve but eve is too old to change that now
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.10 02:44:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Crazy KSK it is indeed to easy to get information in eve but eve is too old to change that now
not at all
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Uzrial
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Posted - 2011.01.10 03:03:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Uzrial on 10/01/2011 03:03:34 Remove local eh? We all know where this is going...
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.10 03:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Uzrial Edited by: Uzrial on 10/01/2011 03:03:34 Remove local eh? We all know where this is going...
You didn't read the thread, so you have no idea.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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erittainvarma
Karjala Inc. The Polaris Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.13 00:46:00 -
[15]
I'm against all these changes, some of them more (like killmail nerfing, probing change) and some of them less. Actually, directional scan range differences I could almost support, but I wouldn't tie them to sensor strenght.
And when the hell you would even use the cloak breaking thing? You are doing anomaly with main and keep alt with recon running the cloak breaker? For your information, if the cloaker is going to uncloak, he will do it in the warp at you unless he is in bomber.
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Gallians
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Posted - 2011.01.13 01:33:00 -
[16]
Some ideas are good, some are bad, some are ridiculous (set local to delayed? I lol'd)
I think you would get more of a response if you suggested things one by one where they could sink or swim in their own merits. As an omnibus of a fix, I am vehemently against it.
And by the way, I think you are forgetting just how annoying these sigs are. |
Alexander Third
Gallente STARMINE inc
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Posted - 2011.01.13 02:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Alexander Jameison You've lumped a bunch of changes into one suggestion, and they're all game-breakingly bad. I expect most Assembly-Hall frequenters have come to expect nothing less from you, thus the lack of response.
You can't make "remove local", "nerf cloaking", "remove killmails" and "nerf probing" more palatable by lumping them all together into one package.
Nerf cloaking, killmails and probing??? are you nuts, no offense but not supported
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.13 03:59:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Alexander Third
Originally by: Alexander Jameison You've lumped a bunch of changes into one suggestion, and they're all game-breakingly bad. I expect most Assembly-Hall frequenters have come to expect nothing less from you, thus the lack of response.
You can't make "remove local", "nerf cloaking", "remove killmails" and "nerf probing" more palatable by lumping them all together into one package.
Nerf cloaking, killmails and probing??? are you nuts, no offense but not supported
I don't care if you offend me, I care if you take the time to actually debate. Cloaking is barely nerfed in this idea, probing is buffed really, and killmails... there is no defense for keeping them that isn't complete bull****.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Selinate
Wardens of the Void
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Posted - 2011.01.13 05:24:00 -
[19]
I'm supporting this. Mostly because I find it more positive than negative. Actually, the things that I don't find positive towards making a better game probably wouldn't make the game any worse, either.
Probes do need to be reworked. D-scan is a clunky POS that needs to be changed into something better if local gets removed, Killmails put a rather pointless and annoying aspect on the game, imo...
But nothing in that post is gamebreaking.
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.13 21:01:00 -
[20]
Careful, people might think you are my alt or something.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Ben Johnson
Gallente Deep Space Constructions
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Posted - 2011.01.13 22:10:00 -
[21]
No. ___________________________________________ CEO of Deep Space Constructions --WEBSITE UNDER CONSTRUCTION-- |
Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.13 22:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ben Johnson No.
Yes.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2011.02.11 14:16:00 -
[23]
Unconditionally support! Best regards, Apollo Gabriel
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.02.11 15:41:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Crazy KSK it is indeed to easy to get information in eve but eve is too old to change that now
Great attitude. Then why are you here?
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Dro Nee
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Posted - 2011.02.11 16:58:00 -
[25]
imo
Local- fine as is Map- fine as is Dscan- fine as is Killmails- Fine as is Cloaking- fine as is Not knowing what is waiting at the undock- fine as is Not having deathstars at gates- Fine as is Probing mechanics- not entirely fine, but needs a nerf not a buff. Willing to keep as is
Having whine threads about too much "intel"- totally fine as is
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Zephris
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Posted - 2011.02.11 17:17:00 -
[26]
Support. OP has stated why these things are not fine. if you think they are fine, it's best to explain why they are.
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Dro Nee
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Posted - 2011.02.11 17:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Zephris Support. OP has stated why these things are not fine. if you think they are fine, it's best to explain why they are.
Actually he has only stated that they are not fine, but he has not give any reasoned justification for the claim. This holds true for both the individual proposals and the overall "passive intell is bad...mmmkay" context in which he has made the post.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.02.12 07:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dro Nee Local- fine as is
No.
Quote: Map- fine as is
Not exactly.
Quote: Dscan- fine as is
LOL, No.
Quote: Killmails- Fine as is
Nope.
Quote: Cloaking- fine as is
Mostly.
Quote: Not knowing what is waiting at the undock- fine as is
Station Games Rock?
Quote: Not having deathstars at gates- Fine as is
Not with the other changes.
Quote: Probing mechanics- not entirely fine, but needs a nerf not a buff. Willing to keep as is
So, it doesn't need a nerf or a buff.
Quote: Having whine threads about too much "intel"- totally fine as is
Intelligence is traditionally the most difficult part of strategy. For a reason.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Dro Nee
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Posted - 2011.02.12 15:35:00 -
[29]
Exactly.
Although you messed up the last one and tried to place a reason instead of mere opinion.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.02.13 21:46:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dro Nee Exactly.
Although you messed up the last one and tried to place a reason instead of mere opinion.
So you agree that the OP and I are correct.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
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Max Kolonko
Caldari Worm Nation Ash Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.13 23:06:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The Directional Scanner is a relic that has never actually been an effectively useful tool other than for some niche uses.
I loled so hard. Max Kolonko |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.02.14 01:26:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Max Kolonko
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The Directional Scanner is a relic that has never actually been an effectively useful tool other than for some niche uses.
I loled so hard.
It doesn't beat probing.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Max Kolonko
Caldari Worm Nation Ash Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.14 09:59:00 -
[33]
of course it doesn't beat probing, you cant warp to 0km with it, but in many ways it has benefits probing don't have or require effort to accomplish:
its instant
its directional
it says ship type and ship name from the beginning
it doesn't require any skills trained
it shows PROBES of your enemies, so you know when someone is probing you
it allows you to say what forces are there without warning enemy with your probes
it allows you to probe faster, by judging distance and direction of enemy ship
it allows to fast finding of POS'es exact moon location, even if there are dozens of moons on one planet
you don't need to uncloak to use D-scan, less chance for enemy to spot you
in W-space its as important as local is in 0.0
and many, many more
So, all things together, you cant warp to 0km with d-scan, but other than that, it's great intel tool, DON'T TWEAK WITH IT. Max Kolonko |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.02.16 09:32:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Max Kolonko its instant
Assuming you are looking in the right direction.
Quote: its directional
Thus the name.
Quote: it says ship type and ship name from the beginning
The type could be important, the name... rarely is unless the pilot is an idiot that doesn't change the default name.
Quote: it doesn't require any skills trained
It requires the skills that don't require sp.
Quote: it shows PROBES of your enemies, so you know when someone is probing you
Until you meet a good prober.
Quote: it allows you to say what forces are there without warning enemy with your probes
Just add Falcon.
Quote: it allows you to probe faster, by judging distance and direction of enemy ship
Distance not as much as direction.
Quote: it allows to fast finding of POS'es exact moon location, even if there are dozens of moons on one planet
Plenty of other ways to do that, but that is useful.
Quote: you don't need to uncloak to use D-scan, less chance for enemy to spot you
I do it with gate cloak too.
Quote: in W-space its as important as local is in 0.0
Although it doesn't save you from fast warping ships.
Quote: So, all things together, you cant warp to 0km with d-scan, but other than that, it's great intel tool, DON'T TWEAK WITH IT.
Except that it gets buffed in the OP. Cry moar.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.16 11:11:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Let's start with killmails. Killmails and killboards have been around for as long as I've been playing and they have only gotten more accurate and informative.
No.
Reducing information on kill mails solves nothing. Removing kill mails removes bragging only, not actual 'blobbing and hotdrops'.
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Local is a tougher sell, while everyone agrees on principle that Local needs to be changed, rarely are actual solutions unanimously accepted. This is typically because other game mechanics need adjustment and players in general never figure out that more than one thing can be changed at a time.
No.
No for reasons you posted yourself - you do not have any reasonable solution.
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Map statistics can be helpful, but certain information can actually reveal too much. The only things map statistics should show is average number of pilots within the last 24 hrs and average number of ships destroyed within the last 24 hrs.
No.
Map information like any public 'intel tool' swings both ways. If I can get accurate information where enemy is, enemy can get accurate info about my position as well. Better map information provides better awareness about gate camps thus promotes active play.
I call for more options on map such as multiply filters.
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The Directional Scanner is a relic that has never actually been an effectively useful tool other than for some niche uses. The main problem is the range. I propose that a ship's sensor strength determines the range of d-scan.
No.
Bounding scan range to Sensor strength is just horrible idea...especially coupled with your next proposal for probing changes.
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Probes no longer provide a 'BM'. Instead you find a target using D-scan, select it, and activate the probe launcher. The probe will have a chance similar to how ECM works now to track or lose a target. The sensor strength and signature radius will impact success differently. If the probe locks on, it launches and becomes an entity that the owner can warp to (similar to warp to fleet member). The probe will chase the target till the target exits system or the probe duration ends. Probes are vulnerable to ECM Bursts.
No.
Probing needs rather nerf/change than boost.
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Lightwave Distortion Rectifier Array
I disagree with the idea but it gave me a new one:
No Local for ships with Cloaking Device - being affected by some structure or changed to device effect itself. That would actually require active intel gathering.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.02.16 12:05:00 -
[36]
Pretty much a no to all of these.
Probing needs to be nerfed not buffed its already too easy to probe someone down.
The directional scanners is fine as it is, as is cloaking.
I can support removing local or changing it a little.
Killmails dont encourage blobbing, only bragging. Blobbing is caused by people not willing to risk there isk flying ships solo, and by people wanting to make sure they win.
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
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