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Xia Shianggu	Posted - 2011.01.18 02:00:00 - [91] Originally by: Aralyn Cormallen As it stands, systems like the NPC ones in Pure Blind make it far too easy for raiders to stage out of hostile territory and evade persuers. If you want to take away the only means we have to counter our regions being overrun by small raiding gangs who can go into hiding at will, we need a means to be able to force them out of our regions. Your welcome to come raiding, but you will have to break through our perimeter, and then get out afterwards; or stage from a pos which we can burn down to deny you the hiding hole. You cant just sit invulnerable in an NPC station surrounded on all sides by our territory, mooning us out the windows. Because their mooning is so powerful it destroys your ships? Seriously, if they're in station, they're not a threat. Quote: Which brings me to my point about being able to deactivate jump gates in our territory. Its our territory, let us cut down the routes of access to it if we want. If we cant evade raiders within our borders, let us be able to put up a defence at the border, without there being a dozen alternative routes they can slip through. The systems may be under your control, the jump gates aren't. Assume they belong to the Jovians or something. And the Jovians say no.
Tather Demaleon	Posted - 2011.01.18 02:05:00 - [92] Don't worry, all will be well! [td]
Spurty Caldari V0LTA	Posted - 2011.01.18 04:13:00 - [93] Bai Jump Bridges, hello tears. If you think that having jump bridges is good for this game, you are not qualified to say much of anything. Go get a Wizard to open a portal to town in WOW about it. Boo hoo you might have to run a convoy through some gates. Hoppit!
Messoroz The Scope	Posted - 2011.01.18 05:08:00 - [94] This is clearly a conspiracy to raise the prices of cyno alts in the character bazaar
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2011.01.18 05:41:00 - [95] Just change the bridges to only allow use by alliance members ...and get rid of passwords at the same time (and some-how put a max on how many could be in an alliance too while you're at it)
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2011.01.18 05:47:00 - [96] you should probably read the rest of the minutes, specifically the part where they say they want to create objectives for small gangs, I'm not going to quote the details but it starts with: Quote: Another possibility is providing opportunities for roaming around and finding stuff û as opposed to mindless belt-ratting. The question is, how can this be implemented? currently a roaming gang can mostly just run through systems and everyone docks up or safes and cloaks. if there is any hostile action it is usually in blob form that can show up very quickly using the JB networks most 0.0 alliances have and the roaming gang gets obliterated. tl;dr: they want to create opportunities for the gfs that you want!
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Gith Industries	Posted - 2011.01.18 09:56:00 - [97] I agree, large alliance logistics is far too easy. They could definitely use a nerf in how quickly they can deploy an entire 500 man fleet anywhere in the universe within 30 minutes At the same time, i'm scared at how this will harm solo or small corps. I love my freighter, and being able to haul all my gear around in it is painfully slow, and im just glad it all fits in the freighter so i only have to make the trip once. Nerfing jumpfreighters imo would only hurt smaller corps/alliances, due to the fact even today large alliances will run massive CTA's to move their equipment in regular freighters. Nerfing freighters would hurt smaller guys because we wouldn't be able to move our own gear around highsec without spending a couple days doing it. I'm all for the large alliance logistical nerf, but it needs to be carefully thought out so that it doesn't make logistics for the little guys even more of a pain, then it already is.
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2011.01.18 10:12:00 - [98] I am personally against the JB removal in the current state of EVE. I am not an expert on balance or large-scale impact or whatever, but I am an EVE player. And I play EVE to have fun. And I can definitely say that having to move 20+ systems in order to meet up with friends is not fun. A large part of EVE depends on moving either yourself or your goods from A to B. While I understand that people might like the whole hauler style of gameplay, I do not think it should be enforced on everyone. Perhaps the issue is somewhere else. What good is owning an entire region, if only a couple of systems have anything worthwile in them? Jump Bridges are means of reducing the boring time spent moving around between the points of interests. Perhaps if it was feasible to stay in one place for a longer time, they would not be as needed. I have been very excited about Dominion and the premise of alliances being able to upgrade their space and generally build cool things in it. I am sad that in a year now, this has not been iterated on at all - and it's not even mentioned in the meeting minutes. And now even one of the coolest things to build in your space - player-made stargates - is threatened with removal. I would much rather like to see more structures or upgrades to add to the systems, to make all parts of space interesting and fun to be in. If the issue is logistics being too easy, perhaps add a mass limit to the bridges. People moving around and catching up with gangs can use them to get together faster, but if you want to move in a freighter full of stuff, you have to go the long way. Or even make several types of bridges for different ship sizes. Logistics shouldn't be made more difficult by making it more mundane and time-consuming. It should be made more challenging and requiring thought and planning instead. Create more targets and more things for pilots dedicated to hauling to do, other than refuel POSes every month. --- Originally by: Sporked EVE IS DYING RUN TO THE HILLS! WE MIGHT HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS MMO! THEY MIGHT SHOOT AT US WHILE WE ARE BUSY HOLDING HANDS AND FROLICKING! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.18 10:31:00 - [99] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu No, by the players. So, the CSM (representatives of the players) suggest something that the players want, and it's actually CCP who wants it. I think you need to lay down the conspiracy pipeà Quote: Besides ccp never says what they are planning to do any further than the ubiquitous 'SoonÖ' or 'We are thinking about itÖ' so they could have had this planned for months or even years. Actually, they do. Quite often. But that's not the point: the point is that you're claiming that CCP wants to do this, and has tricked the CSM into making that wish official, but can only provide (loose) evidence that it is the players who want it. This in spite of the fact that CCP have never been particularly shy about saying what they want to happen (and in spite of them declaring their wishes and being shouted down something fierce by the players, including CSM, thus further ruining your idea that they are never influenced). So I'm going to have to go back to the original question: how did CCP make the CSM suggest what CCP wanted to do? Moreover, what do you have to support the idea that CCP wanted to remove bridges? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
SkinSin	Posted - 2011.01.18 10:38:00 - [100] Originally by: Tippia So I'm going to have to go back to the original question: how did CCP make the CSM suggest what CCP wanted to do? Perhaps CCP Derren Brown was sat in on the meetings...???
Sealiah Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor	Posted - 2011.01.18 10:46:00 - [101] Originally by: Fred Barbossa Edited by: Fred Barbossa on 17/01/2011 14:59:13 Originally by: StuRyan some play 40 hours a week and do nothing but missions, some can only play 5 hours a week and want to sign in a go pvp. troll 2/10 carebears pve because they like it and are terrified of pvp. Haha, you are the troll here... People PVE because they need isk. Carebears are the niarja pirates in high sec attacking freighters that can't defend them selves, or "OMG UBER PVPERS" who won't engage a fleet of a similar size in 0.0 (met a lot of those).
StuRyan	Posted - 2011.01.18 10:58:00 - [102] Originally by: Hyveres Well I dont see the problem, might be an issue for people who have grown dependant on them, but for most of the 0.0 residents outside the north I reckon its a nonissue. And we all know IT don't use JBs' right? RIGHT?
Nightdread	Posted - 2011.01.18 11:29:00 - [103] Goodbye Jump Bridges, Goodbye Need for Speed. Without JBs and with more restrictive jump ranges on capitals, all you're going to do is FOSTER more blob fights. You reinstate chokepoints as well as strategic systems chosen for their jump capabilities should CCP decide to go with the constellation jump restrictions. That means systems that are fought over 23.5/7 for dominance as the premier jump points into regions for the owners and as beach-heads for the invaders. That also means that every system within 10 jumps becomes a death trap. Oh...while we're at it, we'd better get rid of cyno jammers, too. After all, they provide an unfair advantage to those holding space. Oh, and warp to zero on stargates and stations as well...we're trying to foster "small gang combat" and gatecamps waiting to smoke everything on approach from 15 km out count towards that, right? Maybe most of you crying and whining about jump bridges and mega-alliances are too new and wet-behind-the-ears to remember the Red Moon Rising days and what came before, but I don't miss it...the constant camps on nearly every gate worth mentioning in low-sec, the mountains of lag because Warp to Zero bookmarks for gates and stations weren't a luxury, they were a necessity. Anything outside the Bear Caves was an Ouroboros of Death in which you spent so much time fighting to keep what you had that you never had time to profit from it. Those days are gone, and good riddance. Yes, jump bridges are logistics trails...that's their intent. But now the News Flash...they lead to the frontlines. Materials are moved to where they're needed, and 90% of the time, that's where the fighting is. As for being used to move mountains of stuff out of high-sec, try the other way around. Most alliances that aren't complete failures now do more in-house production that Jita runs. Sure, you may go to Jita for that shiny new toy or to hock that faction BPC or Officer Mod, but the war production is done about 3 bridges up the line from the front...as close to where the combat pilots live as possible. The reason? Jump Bridges are not cheap to maintain. Bridges aren't just something you put up and then everyone gets to magically move around space. Every jump consumes fuel, and alliances with jumpbridge networks have entire corporations dedicated to keeping them fueled and in proper order so the fleets can move. Most alliances require at least their capital pilots to provide their own fuel, and some require everyone to juice up the bridge for their jump. In essence, they aren't the miracle you think they are. So...go ahead. Remove jump bridges. Make sure you remove Warp to Zero and Cyno Jammers while you're at it. If we're going back to the Dark Ages, I want my server lag, node crashes, and target rich environments back.
StuRyan	Posted - 2011.01.18 11:47:00 - [104] Originally by: Nightdread Goodbye Jump Bridges, Goodbye Need for Speed. Without JBs and with more restrictive jump ranges on capitals, all you're going to do is FOSTER more blob fights. You reinstate chokepoints as well as strategic systems chosen for their jump capabilities should CCP decide to go with the constellation jump restrictions. That means systems that are fought over 23.5/7 for dominance as the premier jump points into regions for the owners and as beach-heads for the invaders. That also means that every system within 10 jumps becomes a death trap. Oh...while we're at it, we'd better get rid of cyno jammers, too. After all, they provide an unfair advantage to those holding space. Oh, and warp to zero on stargates and stations as well...we're trying to foster "small gang combat" and gatecamps waiting to smoke everything on approach from 15 km out count towards that, right? Maybe most of you crying and whining about jump bridges and mega-alliances are too new and wet-behind-the-ears to remember the Red Moon Rising days and what came before, but I don't miss it...the constant camps on nearly every gate worth mentioning in low-sec, the mountains of lag because Warp to Zero bookmarks for gates and stations weren't a luxury, they were a necessity. Anything outside the Bear Caves was an Ouroboros of Death in which you spent so much time fighting to keep what you had that you never had time to profit from it. Those days are gone, and good riddance. Yes, jump bridges are logistics trails...that's their intent. But now the News Flash...they lead to the frontlines. Materials are moved to where they're needed, and 90% of the time, that's where the fighting is. As for being used to move mountains of stuff out of high-sec, try the other way around. Most alliances that aren't complete failures now do more in-house production that Jita runs. Sure, you may go to Jita for that shiny new toy or to hock that faction BPC or Officer Mod, but the war production is done about 3 bridges up the line from the front...as close to where the combat pilots live as possible. The reason? Jump Bridges are not cheap to maintain. Bridges aren't just something you put up and then everyone gets to magically move around space. Every jump consumes fuel, and alliances with jumpbridge networks have entire corporations dedicated to keeping them fueled and in proper order so the fleets can move. Most alliances require at least their capital pilots to provide their own fuel, and some require everyone to juice up the bridge for their jump. In essence, they aren't the miracle you think they are. So...go ahead. Remove jump bridges. Make sure you remove Warp to Zero and Cyno Jammers while you're at it. If we're going back to the Dark Ages, I want my server lag, node crashes, and target rich environments back. Ill say it again: JB's have been a source of some EPIC fights in the passed and present. They are also a beacon for logistic ships and caps and add the whole "Hot drop" tactic. There are other things you can do to increase conflict - limiting the amount of alliance you can "Blue" is one. Look at other ways of creating conflict don't look at ways of making it more difficult for us play the game.
Tom Sasaki	Posted - 2011.01.18 12:08:00 - [105] Notice how many of those claiming that blobbing will increase without the capability to redeploy large forces over multiple regions all seem to belong to one of the northern alliances. Northern JB network Compare it to any other JB network ingame and you will see that it is vastly superior. Mostly due to the unlimited income provided by technitium(other alliances cannot fund a JB network of that scope). I've lived without JBs in 0.0 and while it slows stuff down moving around is still very doable. And tbh I just find the idea of deploying several thousand players a distance of 4 regions in less than 30 minutes broken. Which is what that abomination of a JB network allows. For the blobs to congregate on a "choke" people would actually have to keep their characters there or in relative vincinity which for most players grows stale after a while, so no JBs should over time lead to resets and more regional conflicts, instead of the large coalitions we have today(3/4 way split if 0.0 more or less).
Hyveres Caldari Black Nova Corp IT Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.18 12:14:00 - [106] Edited by: Hyveres on 18/01/2011 12:15:13 Originally by: StuRyan Originally by: Hyveres Well I dont see the problem, might be an issue for people who have grown dependant on them, but for most of the 0.0 residents outside the north I reckon its a nonissue. And we all know IT don't use JBs' right? RIGHT? Oh we do, but for the first few months in delve we had just 2-3 of those. During the PL attacks in MAX2 several corporations were manually burning to defend systems when there was a CSAA under threat. It was more of an effort than using JBs but still perfectly doable. JBs make stuff easier but we still managed to move large numbers effectivly when we took fountain without them, or when fighting -A- in catch(the initial invasion). Edit: Compare that to the NC JB network btw and you will notice a rather substantial difference in scale. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2011.01.18 12:19:00 - [107] In 19 minutes, this place is going to be a cloud of vapor the size of Nebraska. . -hi sec lolwarrior-
Mamba Lev Masturbating Hand Social Club	Posted - 2011.01.18 12:38:00 - [108] JB = JailBait?
Ts'ao Ts'ao	Posted - 2011.01.18 12:40:00 - [109] patch notes say JBs are staying, but can now be correctly scanned down personally I think thats a good balance
Esk Esme Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.01.18 12:45:00 - [110] rember before jb's were even in game allainces used to make 200 man fleets to escort frieghters along theyer pipe to restock the theyer little patch of 0.0 and that was even before warp to 0 was ingame ppl managed with joint allaince effort and team work now you have jump freighter's, warp cloaky hauler's, jb's eve has been dumbed down a hell of alot you also have alot of titans in game now that can bridge fleets close to were they need to go for 0.0 warfare a logistic chain of titans at pos''s would get your fleet to were it needs to be, it just take a little extra planing to set up the titan pos's in the chain or to jump titans to were they need to be things could do with jb's 1 limit the number of jb's per region 2 make eve much much bigger putting more npc regions to break up the player owned 0.0 region block's personaly id love to see jb's gone from game bring back the old trade route's and friends helping each other by scouting them to and from were they wana go like we used to do years ago my spelling sux seu me
Gillaboo	Posted - 2011.01.18 12:45:00 - [111] Scuttle the JB's. Many 0.0 dwellers are always preaching the "Risk vs Reward" gospel to justify the greater rewards of 0.0 -- fine, enjoy -- but you'd see alot more smaller fleets having to regularly patrol Alliance territories without the JB's that currently act as a deterrent due to their ability to move large fleets easily from a centralized location (aka, projection of power). Face it.. JB's allow alliances to be "lazy". Simply link a JB in a key, strategic system and it's a deterrent. Your fleet(s) should be the deterrent, not the JB networks. -------------------------------------------------------- This space For Rent.
Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.01.18 12:50:00 - [112] Originally by: Nightdread Goodbye Jump Bridges, Goodbye Need for Speed. Without JBs and with more restrictive jump ranges on capitals, all you're going to do is FOSTER more blob fights. You reinstate chokepoints as well as strategic systems chosen for their jump capabilities should CCP decide to go with the constellation jump restrictions. That means systems that are fought over 23.5/7 for dominance as the premier jump points into regions for the owners and as beach-heads for the invaders. That also means that every system within 10 jumps becomes a death trap. Oh...while we're at it, we'd better get rid of cyno jammers, too. After all, they provide an unfair advantage to those holding space. Oh, and warp to zero on stargates and stations as well...we're trying to foster "small gang combat" and gatecamps waiting to smoke everything on approach from 15 km out count towards that, right? Maybe most of you crying and whining about jump bridges and mega-alliances are too new and wet-behind-the-ears to remember the Red Moon Rising days and what came before, but I don't miss it...the constant camps on nearly every gate worth mentioning in low-sec, the mountains of lag because Warp to Zero bookmarks for gates and stations weren't a luxury, they were a necessity. Anything outside the Bear Caves was an Ouroboros of Death in which you spent so much time fighting to keep what you had that you never had time to profit from it. Those days are gone, and good riddance. Yes, jump bridges are logistics trails...that's their intent. But now the News Flash...they lead to the frontlines. Materials are moved to where they're needed, and 90% of the time, that's where the fighting is. As for being used to move mountains of stuff out of high-sec, try the other way around. Most alliances that aren't complete failures now do more in-house production that Jita runs. Sure, you may go to Jita for that shiny new toy or to hock that faction BPC or Officer Mod, but the war production is done about 3 bridges up the line from the front...as close to where the combat pilots live as possible. The reason? Jump Bridges are not cheap to maintain. Bridges aren't just something you put up and then everyone gets to magically move around space. Every jump consumes fuel, and alliances with jumpbridge networks have entire corporations dedicated to keeping them fueled and in proper order so the fleets can move. Most alliances require at least their capital pilots to provide their own fuel, and some require everyone to juice up the bridge for their jump. In essence, they aren't the miracle you think they are. So...go ahead. Remove jump bridges. Make sure you remove Warp to Zero and Cyno Jammers while you're at it. If we're going back to the Dark Ages, I want my server lag, node crashes, and target rich environments back. OH GOD THE JUMPBRIDGES ARE GOING ITS THE END OF EVE. You literally look that silly.
Ming Call	Posted - 2011.01.18 12:56:00 - [113] At no point did a CSM ever canvas my view. Nor did any of the views and agendas expressed by the CSMs prior to the election represent my opinion. So who should I have voted for? How does the CSM represent my perspective? Democracy at work. Nor do I believe this game's future should be directed by the popular vote. "A camel is a horse to a committee" Conclusion - CCP please note the proportion of the player base which voted for the CSM, and how the CSM's view represents the community (or not) before acting. No doubt you have your own agenda. There are enough fanbois in here who will tell you how wonderful the CSM is. Look at the data first please.
Varro Miller	Posted - 2011.01.18 12:57:00 - [114] Most of the ppl in the CSM are carebears so nerfing JBs wouldn`t affect them in any way. Null sec players don`t need to have their issues voiced in the CSM because it`s not as if CCP is advertising EVE as a place where you fly in big fights under massive outlaw space empires. Ohh wait... they are doing that .
Mr Mvoice Gallente	Posted - 2011.01.18 13:07:00 - [115] Originally by: Gillaboo Scuttle the JB's. Many 0.0 dwellers are always preaching the "Risk vs Reward" gospel to justify the greater rewards of 0.0 -- fine, enjoy -- but you'd see alot more smaller fleets having to regularly patrol Alliance territories without the JB's that currently act as a deterrent due to their ability to move large fleets easily from a centralized location (aka, projection of power). Face it.. JB's allow alliances to be "lazy". Simply link a JB in a key, strategic system and it's a deterrent. Your fleet(s) should be the deterrent, not the JB networks. Like your logic, ... and also- that Northern JB system is stupendus. I read about "blobbing" and ect.. and Im not supriced the North has bad reputation for it, that JB network is just EVE gone mad. CCP should definatly limit the amount of JB's that can be anchored in any regtion.
Neesa Corrinne Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2011.01.18 13:18:00 - [116] If Jump Bridges were removed, it would be one of the single best positive changes for null sec in a long time. Now lets work on removing local as an intelligence tool while we're at it and the game would be one more step closer to being perfect again since the far overreaching speed changes. ======================================
StuRyan	Posted - 2011.01.18 13:34:00 - [117] Originally by: Hyveres Edited by: Hyveres on 18/01/2011 12:15:13 Originally by: StuRyan Originally by: Hyveres Well I dont see the problem, might be an issue for people who have grown dependant on them, but for most of the 0.0 residents outside the north I reckon its a nonissue. And we all know IT don't use JBs' right? RIGHT? Oh we do, but for the first few months in delve we had just 2-3 of those. During the PL attacks in MAX2 several corporations were manually burning to defend systems when there was a CSAA under threat. It was more of an effort than using JBs but still perfectly doable. JBs make stuff easier but we still managed to move large numbers effectivly when we took fountain without them, or when fighting -A- in catch(the initial invasion). Edit: Compare that to the NC JB network btw and you will notice a rather substantial difference in scale. What you see with the NC is a strategically place JB network. And what you have experienced is some epid fights over a lot of those systems both military and logistics have been lost on them. They are a beacon for battles they are a beacon for traps and for the CSM to suggest that taking away JBs to make "life harder " - its a ****ing game that is becoming even more about grinding. if you want people moving into 0.0 look at the difficulty of owning / taking a region. The only way attackers have successfully taken a region have been by CCP's arrogance towards system wide node crashes and numbers. Small corps and alliances need bigger alliances to support them or they just become easy targets for bigger alliances. Plenty of ISK has been destroyed from "Sloppy" logistics run both on gates and through JB's. JB's have allowed some of the biggest battles in eve to take place which is what CCP want. To get rid of them becuase "the game play has become easy" could't be further away from the truth, base some of the discussion on real truth - have you ever asked smaller alliances why they aren't in 0.0? or why many empire dwellers aren't in 0.0. Until you actually sit down and ask all your idea's are just speculation towards making the whole 0.0 gameplay better for all.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.01.18 13:43:00 - [118] Next should be jump clones. ;-) How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Mr Mvoice Gallente	Posted - 2011.01.18 13:50:00 - [119] Quote: What you see with the NC is a strategically place JB network. And what you have experienced is some epid fights over a lot of those systems both military and logistics have been lost on them. What you mean is, The North was able to BLOB the attacking fleet ? We have seen / heard about epic fleet fights in Catch / Stain and other Regions that do not have "stupendus" JB system. And also, there are plenty Allainces in 0.0 NPC regions who survie just fine without JB system. As for why so many alliances stay in Empire, they dont want to be renters, they get Blobbed when trying to gain systems.. ect.. ect..
Doddy Burning Vendetta	Posted - 2011.01.18 13:56:00 - [120] Originally by: StuRyan Edited by: StuRyan on 17/01/2011 15:01:37 Edited by: StuRyan on 17/01/2011 14:59:29 In the recent dev blogs its been suggested that JB's are going to be "Got rid of" and I personally do not like the idea. Reason being is if we aren't already asked to spend hour after hour farming active income sites to create isk for GF's, we are no told Logistics is too easy... Main reason for nerfing JBs is to create more possibilities of GF's. No travel through 0.0 = no oppurtunity for pvp encounter. The biggest problems with non sov related small scale warfare in 0.0 is the combination of local and easy logistics (either through jump bridges or jump freighters/carriers) that bypass gates. One or the other needs nerfed, preferably both. Even if you only play 5 hours that is still 2 hrs to make isk = 100 mil = 10 cheap fit t1 cruisers/4 cruisers/4 t2 frigs/2bcs/1cheap bs/most of a t2 cruiser or bc. On all but the t2 you get half the isk back in insurance. Surely you don't lose so many ships in the remaining 3 hours you can't afford that, 0.0 pvp is so broken these days you can easily spend 3 hours without finding a viable engagement at all.

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