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Mr Mvoice
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.17 18:35:00 -
[61]
Originally by: xxxak
Originally by: Mr Mvoice Great,
Yes, please get rid of them JB's... it will make the Large Alliances suffer.
0.0 Space will finally be open, and Sov wars promised with Dominion will finally happen, these big alliances will have to re-think how they defend there space, or hold it - as they hold more space than they really need. All the large alliances only manage to hold large regions, and too much space, by easy transport of players between systems.
I cant wait for the day Jump Bridges will be signed to History
How do you know the alliances hold more space then they can use?
Been through plenty of 0.0 space looking for PvP, and gone through empty system after another. Yes, this is not my main and No Im not giving that detail. Will it kill EVE, No.. speak to any player who started in 2003 and they will tell you about mad trips in Freighters from High-sec to 0.0 .. yes, the time before JumpFreigthters. And think of the back stabbing and double crossing we would see if the 0.0 space was run by many small alliances. And possibly, we would not have to go through empty system after another looking for PvP
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Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Syndicate.
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Posted - 2011.01.17 18:55:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Culmen on 17/01/2011 18:59:37 Edited by: Culmen on 17/01/2011 18:55:30
Originally by: Mr Mvoice
Been through plenty of 0.0 space looking for PvP, and gone through empty system after another. Yes, this is not my main and No Im not giving that detail. Will it kill EVE, No.. speak to any player who started in 2003 and they will tell you about mad trips in Freighters from High-sec to 0.0 .. yes, the time before JumpFreigthters. And think of the back stabbing and double crossing we would see if the 0.0 space was run by many small alliances. And possibly, we would not have to go through empty system after another looking for PvP
What makes you so sure that small alliances will be better able to survive in a post-jb, post-jf world?
Currently a small alliance can supply it's activities in 0.0 with a handful of JF pilots, supplemented by the occasional JB.
Now remove those, and they'll have to depend on large convoys for supply.
A small alliance's convoys could be stopped by a decent size pirate camp. A large alliance's convoys would simply blow through a similar sized camp.
So once again the small guy is left out in the cold. Status Quo unchanged, more of hassle added. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Xercodo
Amarr INESTO Task Force
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Posted - 2011.01.17 19:08:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Xercodo on 17/01/2011 19:09:33
Originally by: Culmen Edited by: Culmen on 17/01/2011 18:59:37 Edited by: Culmen on 17/01/2011 18:55:30
Originally by: Mr Mvoice
Been through plenty of 0.0 space looking for PvP, and gone through empty system after another. Yes, this is not my main and No Im not giving that detail. Will it kill EVE, No.. speak to any player who started in 2003 and they will tell you about mad trips in Freighters from High-sec to 0.0 .. yes, the time before JumpFreigthters. And think of the back stabbing and double crossing we would see if the 0.0 space was run by many small alliances. And possibly, we would not have to go through empty system after another looking for PvP
What makes you so sure that small alliances will be better able to survive in a post-jb, post-jf world?
Currently a small alliance can supply it's activities in 0.0 with a handful of JF pilots, supplemented by the occasional JB.
Now remove those, and they'll have to depend on large convoys for supply.
A small alliance's convoys could be stopped by a decent size pirate camp. A large alliance's convoys would simply blow through a similar sized camp.
So once again the small guy is left out in the cold. Status Quo unchanged, more of hassle added.
/me sneaks in several BPOs in to his 0.0 home system with a cov ops and never bothers leaving...
-or-
/me sneaks in a cov ops and supplies things with BOs covert-JBing BRs to the home system passed the camps
another great use for the migthy BO \o/
edit: @ small alliance unable to get thru camps.....bombers....nuff said
-------------------------------------------------- The drake is a lie
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.01.17 19:28:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Culmen *but what if we keep moving stuff in from empire?*
Hello, news for you lady. CCP want's that you have miners out there again. They don't want you to mine.. no, they want all those fluffy bears sitting empire, stomping on each others feet mining veld and pyer to be out there with you and mine the stuff there so you can produce stuff locally. This naturally means more than just "jumpdrives nerfed".. read my post on page two of this thread. support Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Syndicate.
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Posted - 2011.01.17 19:46:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: Culmen *but what if we keep moving stuff in from empire?*
Hello, news for you lady. CCP want's that you have miners out there again. They don't want you to mine.. no, they want all those fluffy bears sitting empire, stomping on each others feet mining veld and pyer to be out there with you and mine the stuff there so you can produce stuff locally. This naturally means more than just "jumpdrives nerfed".. read my post on page two of this thread.
What CCP wants and what actually happens are rarely one and the same. But you do bring up a good point.
This will force small alliances to develop everything in 0.0 While large alliance will be able to force through convoys from Jita AND build stuff in 0.0
One more thing in favor of the large alliance. Thanks for pointing that out. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
StuRyan
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Posted - 2011.01.17 19:57:00 -
[66]
so - you get rid of jbs and all the blob alliances disband and one **** ton alliances emerges?
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2011.01.17 20:05:00 -
[67]
Originally by: StuRyan Edited by: StuRyan on 17/01/2011 20:00:04 so - you get rid of jbs and all the blob alliances disband and one **** ton alliances emerges?
My problems is where does the GAME become a GAME and not just more work at having fun.
Instead of blobs you have more smaller fleets roaming their particular areas, which means more GF's for other smaller fleets, instead of blobs spending hours looking for other blobs, or forcing all the small groups to wait until they also have a blob before they engage.
Yours truly, Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Forum Guy
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Posted - 2011.01.17 20:06:00 -
[68]
Originally by: StuRyan
All you old players as far as im concerned can go do one. Removing JB's is not about implementing anything more than more work and more burn out for those players that live in 0.0.
There was also a reason that JBs were introduced, removing them will just make that reason prominent once more.
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StuRyan
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Posted - 2011.01.17 20:13:00 -
[69]
Edited by: StuRyan on 17/01/2011 20:15:36
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: StuRyan Edited by: StuRyan on 17/01/2011 20:00:04 so - you get rid of jbs and all the blob alliances disband and one **** ton alliances emerges?
My problems is where does the GAME become a GAME and not just more work at having fun.
Instead of blobs you have more smaller fleets roaming their particular areas, which means more GF's for other smaller fleets, instead of blobs spending hours looking for other blobs, or forcing all the small groups to wait until they also have a blob before they engage.
Instead of taking things away from the game that promote ease to do some of the necessaties, more thought should go into ways of being able to combat bigger fleets. the SB is a great example... a way to combine weapon power to produce a powerful weapon just like species 8472 did against the borg. Not everything has to be "taken back" becuase "we've made it too easy for them". back then you didnt have 50k users? I am a great believer that this game is about tactics so let us make use of more tactics at the moment their isnt enough countermeasures.
This was before my time but didnt the game at one point have mine fields?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.17 20:14:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Xercodo
/me sneaks in several BPOs in to his 0.0 home system with a cov ops and never bothers leaving...
-or-
/me sneaks in a cov ops and supplies things with BOs covert-JBing BRs to the home system passed the camps
another great use for the migthy BO \o/
Oh yes, you sneak all the T1 BPO existing in game and get up your POS.
Now you can build your Large Shied Extender I for your drake fitted with Heavy assault missile launchers I and Ballistic control I.
You want named stuff? Hope that the local rats drop what you need. Too bad if you pilot Caldari ships in Serpentis space or Amarr ships in Gurista space.
You want T2? Now your Black Ops ship should use his covert cyno to bring in the datacores for research and the T2 components that you can't produce locally, you should have the guys with the skills and the right POS assemblies.
And you can have a jolly good time mining all the asteroids minerals for what you need.
Sure, it can be done, but how many hour are you willing to dedicate to that every week?
At what point it stop being fun?
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Aquana Abyss
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Posted - 2011.01.17 20:15:00 -
[71]
I used to argue for JBs a lot but to be honest, they have broken an important part of the game.
Logistics, scouting and travel time have all been marginalised by jump bridges. To be hones though removing JBs alone wont fix it anymore since titans and jump freighters are ten a penny in 0.0 alliances now and their jump portals can just take over the logistics part.
Travel time (for most fleets) is the only thing that will change, and that isn't really a bad thing, because forcing people to fight on a more local level actually makes folks need to defend each system rather than cutting the huge swathes of 0.0 up like they do currently.
So, to summarise, yes get rid of JBs, and if you can please nerf jump portals and jump freighters too. 0.0 has become too 'easy' - I mean how many deep 0.0 corps actually have to complete the whole mine -> produce -> moon mine -> produce T2 in order to get most of their T2 (baseline) goods nowadays? Not many.
Just my opinion.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.01.17 20:21:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Forum Guy
Originally by: StuRyan
All you old players as far as im concerned can go do one. Removing JB's is not about implementing anything more than more work and more burn out for those players that live in 0.0.
There was also a reason that JBs were introduced, removing them will just make that reason prominent once more.
The game was also quite a bit less populated then too so it was harder for the nullsec entities to attract enough players to do all the mundane tasks that normally get done in safe empire and more importantly there were no jump freighters to bypass the camps. Now with all the industrial buffs and other additions to nullsec the logistical use of the jump bridge has been all but removed as long as the alliance can get some industrial corps on the payrole to supply them.
So that leaves it to be used to spam cap fleets all over the place which encourages blobbing because reinforcements are always just a few hops away even if they are literally on the other side of the map. Take away that ability and then cap ships become more what they should be. Ponderous ships of the line that you meticulously place in strategic locations for defence and well planned offence. Right now they are like a fleet of deathstars you can insert at will pretty much anywhere in far less time than it takes a manually piloted inty to cross the same distance. Something is not right with that on too many levels.
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Forum Guy
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Posted - 2011.01.17 20:30:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: Forum Guy
Originally by: StuRyan
All you old players as far as im concerned can go do one. Removing JB's is not about implementing anything more than more work and more burn out for those players that live in 0.0.
There was also a reason that JBs were introduced, removing them will just make that reason prominent once more.
The game was also quite a bit less populated then too so it was harder for the nullsec entities to attract enough players to do all the mundane tasks that normally get done in safe empire and more importantly there were no jump freighters to bypass the camps. Now with all the industrial buffs and other additions to nullsec the logistical use of the jump bridge has been all but removed as long as the alliance can get some industrial corps on the payrole to supply them.
So that leaves it to be used to spam cap fleets all over the place which encourages blobbing because reinforcements are always just a few hops away even if they are literally on the other side of the map. Take away that ability and then cap ships become more what they should be. Ponderous ships of the line that you meticulously place in strategic locations for defence and well planned offence. Right now they are like a fleet of deathstars you can insert at will pretty much anywhere in far less time than it takes a manually piloted inty to cross the same distance. Something is not right with that on too many levels.
If they were to remaim you could limit their distance and limit the hull size that could use them. So you still need to think carefully where you are going to keep your capital ships.
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oldmanst4r
Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation
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Posted - 2011.01.17 20:41:00 -
[74]
Edited by: oldmanst4r on 17/01/2011 20:45:19 Edited by: oldmanst4r on 17/01/2011 20:42:56 I think I'd better start saving up for a titan alt and a titan to bridge my stuff around in null...Damn that's going to be a lot of sanctums.
edit: what's 120,000,000,000 divided by 100,000,000? Anyone? I need to figure out how long this is going to take for realz.
second edit: nvm that's about 1200 hours of sanctums or about 300 days if I farm sanctums for four hours a day....maybe I should just steal one. Hey does any alliance need someone to "manage" their supercapital production facilities. I'll need all the relevant roles and a supercapital alt. Ty in advance
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Captain Die
Suicide by Cop
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Posted - 2011.01.17 21:14:00 -
[75]
Supported. --- DIE |
Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.01.17 21:15:00 -
[76]
You do not need Titans to bridge haulers around. Black ops can bridge blocade runners. And it's safer than using jump freighters. Only donwside is that if you dont have cyno gens (or they get nurfed) you will long cyno chains. Hello there corp level shared accounts ran by PLEX. Carriers can be still used to haul ****. Do you remember when you were able to put haulers in carriers filled with "stuff", well, you still can as long as the "stuff" is ammo. While mineral compression in the form of ammo is not as effective as modules you still can get some pretty damn impressive compression rates. For example take a look at some of the XL ammos. Reason why this is not common is ofc jump freighter. With modules for mineral compression you can move Titan worth of minerals in handful of trips with JF.
Bottom line is - I do not pay to look at gate getting slowly closer. It's not what floats my boat in EVE. Only social interaction with my friends - thats will not cut it. There is other ways to chat with your friends - some of them quite fun. All of them more fun than watching gate getting slowly closer or spending 3-4 minutes in warp on those awful long jumps present in EVE to drive any freighter pilot insane.
I once did about 100 jumps in a freighter in a day. Before warp to zero. First I did instas in inty for the whole route and then flew freighter manually with insta booksmarks all the way. I took a break from EVE after that.
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Teiris Heartbreaker
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Posted - 2011.01.17 21:16:00 -
[77]
If you remove the jump bridges, coalitions wont die. They will become stronger, setting up titan bridges around their sov.
The effect that some said was desired, of getting miners to 0.0... wont happen. Its already too hard to mine and not profitable at all. Plus, all it takes is system campers or 2 or 3 gankers to halt an entire corporation's production. Jump bridges are the bliss of the industrialists.
If the objective is to decrease blobs... increase fuel consumption and decrease jump range so that no one can link regions together, and still link constellations.
High sec logistics are easy, null sec logistics? a freakin nightmare. Plus.. if you take jumpbridges out, it will be very easy for anyone to emprison people in a system, or even a constellation with a few good gate camps!
removal of the jumpbridges will kill the farthest regions of 0.0 - Which is actually interesting, given they will be completely lawless
My 2 cents.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2011.01.17 21:30:00 -
[78]
Jumpbridge madness galore!!
This is a perfect example on everything thats wrong.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.17 22:47:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu But this JB debate certainly shows ccp has cunning. How? Lets see. CCP brings in an unpopular change and instead of the forums blowing up at ccp over it ccp can now point to the csm and say hey it was their idea!
So tell me: how did CCP make the CSM suggest what CCP wanted to do? Moreover, what do you have to support the idea that CCP wanted to remove bridges?
The suggestion for this particular way of complicating nullsec logistics came from the CSM, not CCP.
Quote: If you really think the hodgepodge circus act of players that is the current sitting csm has any influance whatsoever on the decisions ccp make about the game mechanics then all I can say is lol.
So you're saying that jumpbridges will end up staying, because removing them is only a CSM suggestion? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
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Posted - 2011.01.17 23:00:00 -
[80]
Wait, they are getting rid of jump bridges? Wouldn't reimbursing the 60bil+ for each titan kill the economy?
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.01.17 23:13:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu But this JB debate certainly shows ccp has cunning. How? Lets see. CCP brings in an unpopular change and instead of the forums blowing up at ccp over it ccp can now point to the csm and say hey it was their idea!
So tell me: how did CCP make the CSM suggest what CCP wanted to do? Moreover, what do you have to support the idea that CCP wanted to remove bridges?
The suggestion for this particular way of complicating nullsec logistics came from the CSM, not CCP.
Quote: If you really think the hodgepodge circus act of players that is the current sitting csm has any influance whatsoever on the decisions ccp make about the game mechanics then all I can say is lol.
So you're saying that jumpbridges will end up staying, because removing them is only a CSM suggestion?
Removing jump bridges has been discussed for years. All ccp had to do was wait till they wanted to remove them then encourage the debate with alts and wait for someone to bite. It's far easier to do than you seem to think as ccp thinks in the terms of years when it comes to implimenting core gameplay changes.
I mean really. You guys seem to think you are the only ones who know how to take advantage of human behavior in this game.
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Borealis Nebulae
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Posted - 2011.01.17 23:17:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Borealis Nebulae on 17/01/2011 23:18:06 I would love to see escorted convoys in EVE, going from highsec all the way through lowsec into deep 0.0 space. Of course, instead of jumpbridges, you can always use Titans.
And since we have tons of Titans, why not to make them to do JB's job?
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Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
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Posted - 2011.01.17 23:20:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Aessoroz on 17/01/2011 23:20:32
Originally by: Borealis Nebulae Edited by: Borealis Nebulae on 17/01/2011 23:18:06 I would love to see escorted convoys in EVE, going from highsec all the way through lowsec into deep 0.0 space. Of course, instead of jumpbridges, you can always use Titans.
And since we have tons of Titans, why not to make them to do JB's job?
They already do, that's all they are used for these days because lag makes it too dangerous to deploy in combat.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.17 23:31:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Removing jump bridges has been discussed for years.
By CCP? Do you have a source for this? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Drakarin
Gallente Absentia Libertas Solus
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Posted - 2011.01.17 23:43:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Fred Barbossa Edited by: Fred Barbossa on 17/01/2011 14:59:13
Originally by: StuRyan some play 40 hours a week and do nothing but missions, some can only play 5 hours a week and want to sign in a go pvp.
troll 2/10 carebears pve because they like it and are terrified of pvp.
I PvE so I can get the isk to PvP without being dependent on a huge alliance that always involves blobbing and farming killmails.
If it were as simple as Log in, PvP, I would do that. Unfortunately in that setup all you can fly are cheap T1 frigs and cruisers. That's not fun.
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Hyveres
Caldari Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.17 23:45:00 -
[86]
Well I dont see the problem, might be an issue for people who have grown dependant on them, but for most of the 0.0 residents outside the north I reckon its a nonissue.
"Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services Novus Ordo Mundi
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Posted - 2011.01.18 01:27:00 -
[87]
I can't wait for JB's removed!
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northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services Novus Ordo Mundi
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Posted - 2011.01.18 01:31:00 -
[88]
Edited by: northwesten on 18/01/2011 01:32:53
Originally by: StuRyan
My problems is where does the GAME become a GAME and not just more work at having fun.
All you old players as far as im concerned can go do one. Removing JB's is not about implementing anything more than more work and more burn out for those players that live in 0.0.
lmao When did EVE start becoming A easy button like WoW? telling old player to do one and I guess your new your self? take the door if you don;t like easy.
EVE-Online always been harsh and have to work for it. don't like it the GTFO out.
Originally by: Hyveres Well I dont see the problem, might be an issue for people who have grown dependant on them, but for most of the 0.0 residents outside the north I reckon its a nonissue.
I agree! I come back to 0.0 after 2 and half year and I found it so easy to travel around at low risk. Logistic never been so easy and their people crying about it.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.01.18 01:46:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Removing jump bridges has been discussed for years.
By CCP? Do you have a source for this?
No, by the players. As in ccp has been aware of jump bridge concerns and the general playerbases thoughts on them through the forums and other venues. So to say that this change is somehow due to the csm bringing it up is just silly. Besides ccp never says what they are planning to do any further than the ubiquitous 'SoonÖ' or 'We are thinking about itÖ' so they could have had this planned for months or even years.
So this is how the csm gets stuff done. CCP does what it wants when it wants and when it wants the csm to take the credit for something they just look up the proper initiative from the endless list and roll with it. *poof* ccp does what it wants and can now point to the csm and say 'oh hey they do make a difference' or 'oops blame the csm' if things get rocky from the changes.
I mean c'mon man. Think.
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Xia Shianggu
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Posted - 2011.01.18 01:56:00 -
[90]
Originally by: xxxak
Originally by: Mr Mvoice Great,
Yes, please get rid of them JB's... it will make the Large Alliances suffer.
0.0 Space will finally be open, and Sov wars promised with Dominion will finally happen, these big alliances will have to re-think how they defend there space, or hold it - as they hold more space than they really need. All the large alliances only manage to hold large regions, and too much space, by easy transport of players between systems.
I cant wait for the day Jump Bridges will be signed to History
How do you know the alliances hold more space then they can use?
Because apparently, based on the whining in this thread, they hold more space than they can defend.
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