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tpwh21
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Posted - 2011.01.21 12:38:00 -
[1]
There has been no response from any CCP staff to any of the issues raised about PI for weeks. WTF are they? Not responding to all the test server feedback was annoying - releasing this is even more so. commitment to excellence - excellence in what exactly?. PI started out as an ill thought out piece of s*** nice to see it is being iterated as badly as it started out.
Here is the the only public DEV statement on future PI intentions: dev blog with stated intent to follow some of the proposals in this CSM proposal
Now what was wrong with the old PI: 1) clickfest 2) crappy interface 3) no interactions at higher levels eg corp/alliance 4) on and off planet storage is crappy. 5) liable to be easily macroed. 6) building colonies horribly difficult and complex - with awful interface.
short comings of the new PI: 1) dragfest 2) crappy interface (worse lots of lag due to having to load heat maps all the time). 3) no interactions at higher levels eg corp/alliance 4) planet storage is more crappy. 5) liable to be easily macroed. 6) wildly unpredictable outputs/resource depletion. 7) reduction in possible ways of doing it - less play freedom 8) Now will need to repeatedly rebuild colonies - with same awful interface.
Amusingly in this new iteration - they have exacerbated some of the worst features of the old PI - and put in few noticeable improvements.
Technical stuff: Planet interface still loads really slowly. Having to generate heat maps all the time causes lots of slowdown/lag. Still buggy and crash prone.
Playability: it now takes loads longer - at least double the time to restart extractors cycles - as you have to wait for heat map to load - move extractors around - think - wait for change to be accepted.
Resources deplete way too fast. extraction rates wildly unpredictable - even with high levels of planetology/advanced planetology.
Cancelling extractor cycles massively depletes resources - so can't really use them. ECU powergrid requirements/nerfing of 5hr cycles mean that most clever PI approaches are not possible. Even cycling resources eg swapping what is extracted one day to the next - is nearly impossible - as there is not enough on planet buffer storage, especially after the new grid hungry ECU. ECU grid requirements make lower level command centres nearly useless - therefore you've also killed part of the natural learning curve.
But the worst part of this - is the following - this game is a sandbox - they provide a framework - we play the game in the way we chose. this new iteration of PI - basically completely "rebalances" the ONLY interesting part of PI. People who are saying that PO-->P1 extraction on a single planet is the most efficient are right. However only in a certain set of cases - ie there were complicated launching/hauling tradeoffs to be made. If you are not some high sec PI robot - you had an interesting set of tradeoffs to make - should i haul less for lower overall efficiency - or haul more for higher pod risk but more isk. Or you could take a micro/macro management approach - do you want to use 5 hr cycles for much more isk. Now if you want to use a low haul approach you are penalised by around 50% or more...
thanks for launching an "upgrade" which does nothing substantive to PI. Apart from making it more boring, more tricky to learn, and less open to low skilled players. congrats.
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Elmo Vormar
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2011.01.21 13:04:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Elmo Vormar on 21/01/2011 13:06:12
Originally by: tpwh21
short comings of the new PI: 1) dragfest 2) crappy interface (worse lots of lag due to having to load heat maps all the time). 3) no interactions at higher levels eg corp/alliance 4) planet storage is more crappy. 5) liable to be easily macroed. 6) wildly unpredictable outputs/resource depletion. 7) reduction in possible ways of doing it - less play freedom 8) Now will need to repeatedly rebuild colonies - with same awful interface.
1) you are a lazy *** who wants everything his way with one single click 2) idk what you are doing or where you are at that moment but i havent encountered a single moment of lag during pi. the interface itself is relative, i like the new interface better while others might not like it. 3)True but i think ccp wants it to be a player only thing, maybe there will be upgrades for corps and alliances in the future. 4)how is planet storage more crappy? it stayed just the same... and whats wrong with the launchpad? a big storage and an easy way to get it on and off your planet, or do you want to have it directly in your station hangar... 5)could be but there will always be exploiters 6)i do agree that its unpredictable what you will get as output, one one colony i had an output of 30k/hour but only got 20k, maybe ccp can explain the reason behind this? will this be better if we up our pi skills? 7) actually no, its more complex but i think after a month people will find out for themselves what the best way is to organise their colony and will find more ways to "play" with different options. 8) why would you keep rebuilding your colonies, unless you want to try different things? but hey you had the time to do it on sisi before the patch went live....
i think ccp did a nice job with this pi renewal. there will always be people who arent satisfied but just stop the whining and learn to live with it like everyone else.
there is no such thing as getting a lot of isk for minimal effort...
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Quetazal
Gallente Clann Fian
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Posted - 2011.01.21 13:20:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Quetazal on 21/01/2011 13:21:45
Quote: There has been no resp.....oposal
A rant.
Quote: Now what was wrong with the old PI: 1) clickfest 2) crappy interface 3) no interactions at higher levels eg corp/alliance 4) on and off planet storage is crappy. 5) liable to be easily macroed. 6) building colonies horribly difficult and complex - with awful interface.
On and off planet storage is fine. Build extra launchpads if you need moar.
Quote: short comings of the new PI: 1) dragfest
Not really, drag the heads to another hotspot does not take very long.
Quote: 2) crappy interface (worse lots of lag due to having to load heat maps all the time).
I love the new ui; waiting 8 seconds for a heat map is really no issue at all. I used to have to wait 30mins+ for old tape games to load.
Quote: 3) no interactions at higher levels eg corp/alliance
Not yet; though I am sure the framework could be built on inthe future; I prefer pi to be solo myself.
Quote: 4) planet storage is more crappy.
Why? Don't tell me you are using silos instead of launchpads?
Storage Capacity has not been changed, how can it moar crappy?
Quote: 5) liable to be easily macroed.
The new method is less liable to be macroed as the heads need to be moved.
Quote: 6) wildly unpredictable outputs/resource depletion.
Again, this combats macroing and keeps things interesting.
Quote: 7) reduction in possible ways of doing it - less play freedom
This is valid, now players are forced down the OPTIMAL route for max isk, thus cutting profit for ppl that have always been doing it the best way.
Quote: 8) Now will need to repeatedly rebuild colonies - with same awful interface.
It you want max isk yeild then you will have too. Wait, you want isk for free?
Amusingly in this new iteration - they have exacerbated some of the worst features of the old PI - and put in few noticeable improvements.
Quote: Technical stuff: Planet interface still loads really slowly. Having to generate heat maps all the time causes lots of slowdown/lag. Still buggy and crash prone.
Playability: it now takes loads longer - at least double the time to restart extractors cycles - as you have to wait for heat map to load - move extractors around - think - wait for change to be accepted.
Your just saying the same thing in 5 different ways; and calling it 'technical stuff'?
Quote: Resources deplete way too fast. extraction rates wildly unpredictable - even with high levels of planetology/advanced planetology.
I know, having to earn ISK sucks.
Quote: Cancelling extractor cycles massively depletes resources - so can't really use them.
Don't use so many heads on one hotspot.
Quote: ECU powergrid requirements/nerfing of 5hr cycles mean that most clever PI approaches are not possible.
I would argue that it could possible take more skill in placement now; even moar so if you can keep mental track of which hotspots are waxing and waning.
Quote: Even cycling resources eg swapping what is extracted one day to the next - is nearly impossible - as there is not enough on planet buffer storage, especially after the new grid hungry ECU.
Upgrade your CC and build another launchpad - instant buffer.
Quote: ECU grid requirements make lower level command centres nearly useless - therefore you've also killed part of the natural learning curve.
You should not be using lower level CC's (min lvl 4) if you are serious about pi.
this new iteration of PI - basically ... another rant.... or more...
Quetazal
Gallente Clann Fian
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Posted - 2011.01.21 13:23:00 -
[4]
ya; if you want bang on survey vs extraction numbers then go ahead and invest 30 days in maxing the planetology skills. If you cannot make the investment then don't whine. I came, I saw, I downloaded. |
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Brock Nelson
Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited SRS.
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Posted - 2011.01.21 13:24:00 -
[5]
1) I'm sure it'll be easier than clicking 10 or so different extractor per planet Boo-****ing-hoo
2) Your computer sucks
3) Boo-****ing-hoo
4) Boo-****ing-hoo
5) Boo-****ing-hoo
6) Yeah that's a bug alrite
7) Boo-****ing-hoo (It's call a nerf)
8) Wanna explain that one? Somehow I doubt that the majority of the players needs to repeatedly rebuild their colonies
Originally by: Lutz Major
Originally by: Lazy Poster Where can I go to learn about this?
You could visit the stickies!?
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Quetazal
Gallente Clann Fian
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Posted - 2011.01.21 13:26:00 -
[6]
Boo-****ing-hoo from me 2. I came, I saw, I downloaded. |
Aunty Nora
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Posted - 2011.01.21 13:52:00 -
[7]
Originally by: tpwh21 There has been no response from any CCP staff to any of the issues raised about PI for weeks. WTF are they? Not responding to all the test server feedback was annoying - releasing this is even more so. commitment to excellence - excellence in what exactly?. PI started out as an ill thought out piece of s*** nice to see it is being iterated as badly as it started out.
Here is the the only public DEV statement on future PI intentions: dev blog with stated intent to follow some of the proposals in this CSM proposal
Now what was wrong with the old PI: 1) clickfest 2) crappy interface 3) no interactions at higher levels eg corp/alliance 4) on and off planet storage is crappy. 5) liable to be easily macroed. 6) building colonies horribly difficult and complex - with awful interface.
short comings of the new PI: 1) dragfest 2) crappy interface (worse lots of lag due to having to load heat maps all the time). 3) no interactions at higher levels eg corp/alliance 4) planet storage is more crappy. 5) liable to be easily macroed. 6) wildly unpredictable outputs/resource depletion. 7) reduction in possible ways of doing it - less play freedom 8) Now will need to repeatedly rebuild colonies - with same awful interface.
Amusingly in this new iteration - they have exacerbated some of the worst features of the old PI - and put in few noticeable improvements.
Technical stuff: Planet interface still loads really slowly. Having to generate heat maps all the time causes lots of slowdown/lag. Still buggy and crash prone.
Playability: it now takes loads longer - at least double the time to restart extractors cycles - as you have to wait for heat map to load - move extractors around - think - wait for change to be accepted.
Resources deplete way too fast. extraction rates wildly unpredictable - even with high levels of planetology/advanced planetology.
Cancelling extractor cycles massively depletes resources - so can't really use them. ECU powergrid requirements/nerfing of 5hr cycles mean that most clever PI approaches are not possible. Even cycling resources eg swapping what is extracted one day to the next - is nearly impossible - as there is not enough on planet buffer storage, especially after the new grid hungry ECU. ECU grid requirements make lower level command centres nearly useless - therefore you've also killed part of the natural learning curve.
But the worst part of this - is the following - this game is a sandbox - they provide a framework - we play the game in the way we chose. this new iteration of PI - basically completely "rebalances" the ONLY interesting part of PI. People who are saying that PO-->P1 extraction on a single planet is the most efficient are right. However only in a certain set of cases - ie there were complicated launching/hauling tradeoffs to be made. If you are not some high sec PI robot - you had an interesting set of tradeoffs to make - should i haul less for lower overall efficiency - or haul more for higher pod risk but more isk. Or you could take a micro/macro management approach - do you want to use 5 hr cycles for much more isk. Now if you want to use a low haul approach you are penalised by around 50% or more...
thanks for launching an "upgrade" which does nothing substantive to PI. Apart from making it more boring, more tricky to learn, and less open to low skilled players. congrats.
PI is fine, dont like it ? then dont do it. I personally would advise you to **** offf back to wow.
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Elmo Vormar
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2011.01.21 14:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Aunty Nora
PI is fine, dont like it ? then dont do it. I personally would advise you to **** offf back to wow.
^ this tbh
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tpwh21
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Posted - 2011.01.21 14:29:00 -
[9]
Edited by: tpwh21 on 21/01/2011 14:32:13 I am not averse to change at all. I welcome change in the game. why i started doing PI...
But i really look forward to the shocked - WTF - kind of responses from the previously pleased high sec PI people who are getting a very temporary boost - when they realize that the current depletion mechanics mean that they will be either running their links half way around the planet - or having to knock down their colonies and rebuild. And then getting a really crappy yield - far worse than before - all over the planet.
Look forward to the tears and whining from the upbeat high sec PI people. Your P0-->P1 max extraction strategy is just as screwed as those operating more complex setups in 0.0/Wh space. I just hope worse - then at least prices will go up.
What I am most ****ed off about - is that the devs introduce a mechanic where moving colonies will become essential - but introduce no ways of making colony building easier.
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Onibrak
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Posted - 2011.01.21 20:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: tpwh21 Edited by: tpwh21 on 21/01/2011 14:32:13 I am not averse to change at all. I welcome change in the game. why i started doing PI...
But i really look forward to the shocked - WTF - kind of responses from the previously pleased high sec PI people who are getting a very temporary boost - when they realize that the current depletion mechanics mean that they will be either running their links half way around the planet - or having to knock down their colonies and rebuild. And then getting a really crappy yield - far worse than before - all over the planet.
Look forward to the tears and whining from the upbeat high sec PI people. Your P0-->P1 max extraction strategy is just as screwed as those operating more complex setups in 0.0/Wh space. I just hope worse - then at least prices will go up.
What I am most ****ed off about - is that the devs introduce a mechanic where moving colonies will become essential - but introduce no ways of making colony building easier.
This is my problem.
I was redesigning and completely relocating colonies the day the changes hit, and working with the PI guru in our corp to set up our planets.
Three days later, the hot spots I set up my colony near are pretty much gone.
Someone said it's a bug above. Where's the post that says that? Or is that an assumption? I've been looking for a dev response on depletion since this was released. They didn't address it in the thread for the test server and haven't addressed it now.
I like all the people who come out of the wood work "shoulda tried it on test". I doubt a single one of them has read the thread (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1433779&page=1 if you haven't) where there's a few early dev posts and then...nothing. At all. The Devs have not commented on the new PI system since December 23rd.
We're ****ed, they've left us floating in space, and one of the last posts in the test thread says it all.
Originally by: Mistress Agneta I have monitored the resource depletion and redistribution of hotspots for the past few days now. So far, to maintain a constant production flow, I will have to scrap and rebuild my ECU every 2 days - in some cases the distance will bring me into PG trouble from the link-length alone. It's also a lot more tedious adjusting work to be done.
While PI earned me quite a stack of ISK in the past, I can't really stand the annoyance of the new system. Too unpredictable, way too much micromanagement. Back to earning my ISK the old fashioned way I guess.
Rest in PIce, PI
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Cow K
InterSun Freelance Sanctuary Pact
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Posted - 2011.01.21 20:43:00 -
[11]
theres no reason to chase hot spots, since they seem to be changing at random, and also don't yield the most either.
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Carlvagio
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Posted - 2011.01.21 21:16:00 -
[12]
I agree with OP for the most part. I think what people are missing is that this is an intentional nerf dressed up with new features. The new interface does have lots of potential however. Plus prices are going to skyrocket once the existing supplies run low. Just try to weather the storm, it will work itself out.
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Heimer
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2011.01.21 21:43:00 -
[13]
There is no excellence here. The new PI has glaring bugs. Bugs are fine, if there is some semblance of dev communication on it... which we haven't had since December 23rd, 2010. Check the thread in Test Server Feedback about PI -- running joke about not having dev replies on the feedback there.
( ) <- planet (not to scale) لللللل --EhonVonnre |
kloczek0
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Posted - 2011.01.21 22:19:00 -
[14]
Edited by: kloczek0 on 21/01/2011 22:20:49
Originally by: Aunty Nora
Originally by: tpwh21 There has been no response from any CCP staff to any of the issues raised about PI for weeks. PI is fine, dont like it ? then dont do it. I personally would advise you to **** offf back to wow.
Problem that PI products are necessary for T2 production and as POS fuel as well. Consequences of first part of Incursion was raising prices of PI products. Now I think that it will be second probably bigger wave of raising prices of PI products and T2 and costs of maintaining POSes well. Very long time on T2 production main problem was how to obtain cheap moon based products. Now crucial will be how to obtain PI products If introducing current changes was made with push on afk moon mining I think that CCP is on correct path but result of this will be situation when T2 mods and ships will be kind of luxury (definitely on T2 production T2 BPOs will be not a problem any more).
So .. it is not only problem is it PI is fine or not and/or do you like it or not but something much bigger like whole game balance.
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trjcquee
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Posted - 2011.01.21 22:57:00 -
[15]
What I want to know is, "where is the PI-ONLY" forum section? There is waaaay too much PI spam in this section considering the ridiculously low number of people actually doing PI in eve. |
tpwh21
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Posted - 2011.01.22 02:40:00 -
[16]
I have just conducted some experiments. 1)p0-->p1 one product one planet strategy brings me highest efficiency - at 120% over old PI - with a lot more time hauling and resetting extractors/managing factory planet. time per planet per day at least 3 mins i reckon.
2)p0->p2 single planet alternating resources - takes 3 mins to reset per planet. same efficiency as old PI - perhaps a little higher.
3)p0->p2 lower efficiency than old strategy (70-80%) time taken to reset extractors 30 secs - with a bit of occasional extractor moving/switching on and off perhaps 1 min per planet.
under old system could reset extractors in 1 min per planet.
So basically i can do the same as before and get 70% of what i did. Optimize to spend more than 3 times as long. Or rotate resources and spend three times as long.
in what way is me having to spend 3x as long getting the same isk not a nerf???? I look forward to enriched uranium at 24k per unit.
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