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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.01.30 13:25:00 -
[1]
I love the idea of bounty hunting. Below is a proposal for a tweak of the bounty system.
Goals
#1 A working bounty system has to be non-exploitable; the player with a bounty on his head should not be able to profit from it in any way, for example by having a neutral alt collect the bounty.
#2 It would also be nice if having a price on your head forces you to be careful with who you trust, as your pirate friends may do you in for the bounty.
The proposal
The payout from a bounty kill can only be as high as the isk lost.
The isk loss takes into consideration the current market/contract value of the destroyed items and any insurance payout, so that the payout accurately reflects the net loss.
Item value is calculated from current market and public contract prices, cropping the top and bottom extremes to avoid scam contracts and clueless sellers. If a price cannot be found it is set to 0. If this leads to wildly inappropriate payouts for certain extremely rare items, it is possible to petition it and have a GM look at the price history of the item using the magic tools we know all GMs have at their disposal.
Example:
The evil space pirate Evilly E. Piratus has a bounty of 100.000.000 ISK on his head.
Piratus is flying a shuttle when he gets blown up at a gate camp. The market price for a shuttle at that time is 50.000. The killer(s) gets 50.000 ISK and the bounty on Piratus is now 99.950.000.
A bit later Piratus is showing off his faction fitted Dramiel to some corp mates. One of them is a little short on cash and takes the opportunity when Piratus comes to a stop with MWD on to blow his ship to pieces. The total ISK loss is more than the current bounty, so the traitorous pirate (who shall remain nameless to protect his identity) would recieve the remaining 99.950.000 ISK. Piratus is now bounty-free.
Consequences of proposal
* You can no longer collect your own bounty in any meaningful way.
* Having a high bounty on your head means you have to be very careful when flying expensive ships. Someone near you might decide to cash in.
* Seeing a high bounty in an expensive ship is very tempting - you get the surviving modules AND a bounty payout for the destroyed items.
Possible problems
* The calculations of market value may sometimes provide higher bounty payouts than the actual cost to replace lost items.
Hopefully this will be such a small and unpredictable difference that it cannot be exploited. If testing reveals it is a factor then the payout is changed to a percentage of the calculated isk loss, for example 90% or 75%, in order to make sure the mechanic is unexploitable.
Please let me know what you think,
Drebble
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.01.30 22:38:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
And yes it can always be 'exploited'; Pirate A insures BS, Alt shoots BS = difference pocketed from bounty pool.
The bounty payout is related to all destroyed items, hull, modules, cargo, implants, etc.
And as I write in the original post, insurance is included in the net loss calculation, so in your example Pirate A would lose X isk, and Pirate B would gain the same amount of isk (or less, if the bounty payout is less than 100% of the damage done, as I discuss at the end of my original post). No profit.
This loss-based payout is what makes my suggestion difficult to exploit.
//Drebble
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.01.30 22:42:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Drebble on 30/01/2011 22:45:51
Originally by: Rastigan
You get a bounty for blowing up pods, not ships.
My suggestion takes into consideration all destroyed items, not just the pod. Ship, modules, ammo, cargo, implants etc.
As for shooting people in high-sec, that will have to be done the old fashioned way using expendable ships.
Unless CCP introduces some mechanic that lets bounty hunters attack targets in high-sec, which I find unlikely.
//Drebble
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.02.01 07:49:00 -
[4]
Originally by: ZeJesus
Make it so that bounty can only be put on ppl. with at least 2 million SPs. When someone is flagged as a wanted criminal and somebody pods him make the pirate automatically lose 1M SP.
Please stay on topic, and discuss the proposal made in the OP.
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.02.05 17:41:00 -
[5]
Updated with the folliwing thought:
One interesting idea would also be if Concord placed a small bounty on a player everytime he destroyed a ship in hi- or low-sec. Like 10% of the damage done or something. I am not ready to include it in the proposal yet, but it would lead to some interesting changes to the pirate and suicide gank lifestyle. And Concord is already handing out "money from nowhere" for NPC kills, so I dont think it would be a problem economically. Pleayers could also add their own bounties of course.
Thoughts?
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.02.06 20:29:00 -
[6]
Re: Jay Otto, Stegas Tyrano and Kepakh above:
If you look towards the end of the original post, I suggest that the proposal may need to pay less than 100% of the calculated net loss.
One of the figures I suggest is 75%, just as Stegas does above. I think I will put it in the final suggestion to avoid the issues raised by you guys.
I also think my though of concord paying bounty has too many weak spots to be usable, and it also conflicts with the idea of EVE as player-driven.
Thanks for your feedback, keep it coming.
//Drebble
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.02.06 23:17:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Drebble on 06/02/2011 23:20:47
Originally by: Kepakh
Neither system is better, both are equally bad.
I dont understand you.
The old system
* You must kill the pod to claim bounty.
* You can jump clone to an implant-free clone, and have an alt collect 100% of bounty, minus clone cost.
My proposal
* You must kill the ship or the pod to claim bounty.
* Bounty payout is (as of my last post) capped at 75% of actual total lost isk(*).
* This means you can, by destroying ships worth 25% of the bounty, get rid of the bounty (NO profit).
(*) Including ship, modules, cargo, implants and/or clone, with any insurance payout subtracted. So you want to kill the criminal when he is in a expensive ship.
If you had a 2 billion bounty on your head, would you pay 500 million to get rid of it, or just try to avoid bounty hunters?
I may be biased, but I see my proposal as a significant improvement of the old system.
Anything other than a loss-based payout system can and will be exploited.
//Drebble
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.02.06 23:57:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sir PatrickMoore
A very interesting post.
In my original proposal I figured that bounties would be collected in Hi-Sec the usual way - suicide ganks. However, some form of Bounty Hunter Licence would be very interesting, immersion-wise and to increase the danger of having a price on your head.
//Drebble
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.02.07 08:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Donnovich Vacano
Several problems with your plan:
1: The pirate could eject from their ship so the full bounty from being claimed
2: If insurance is factored into to payout then people could abuse this by flying a ship which has insurance that is higher than the bounty.
3: The pirate would still be able to make money by making the ship themselves for much less then the bounty.
Solution for all of these problems: Make bounties pay out in loyalty points. They are non transferable. The only way to get enough to be of any value would be to be an active anti pirate. Plus this would be the perfect way to introduce concord lp.
1: I feel that this is a minor problem, as he will be giving the entre ship to the bounty hunters, and risk being podded. Under my system the intact ship is always worth more than the bounty pyout for destroying it, so its kind of a strange move. Self destruct would be more of a problem, but that issue deserves its own thread.
2: You misunderstand. The insurance is not compared to the bounty. The insurance is just part of the calculation to find the true amount of lost ISK. If you lose 150 millions worth of ship, modules and cargo, and the insurance payout is 50 million, you only really lost 100 million. The maximum bounty payout for that kill becomes 75% of 100 million = 75 million.
3: If the ship could be built and fitted for less than 75% of the calculated mineral value, then the pirate could theoretically gain money by destroying it. BUT, he would gain MUCH MORE money by just selling those ships.
The LP part is interesting. I need to think about it for a while before I comment.
//Drebble
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
|
Posted - 2011.02.07 08:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mushin Zen
So a bounty cannot be claimed by anyone who is in the same corp or alliance as you. This will reduce (but not eliminate) that friends pod each other to get the bounty.
Why could not a corp mate betray you and collect the bounty? Its one the of the good parts of having a price on your head - who can you trust?
And as long as the payout is always less than the loss, as I propose, then there is no way to profit from it.
//Drebble
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
|
Posted - 2011.02.07 08:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: KageAkurei
Sorry but I think it's silly to get bounties off the ship when the isk is placed on the person's head, plus with loot drops and insurance it seems a bit much.
1: Capusleers are immortal, they just clone and keep going. In that light, any bounty is kind of silly.
2: My system pays out for ships AND implands AND clone cost.
What you pay for when you place a bounty on someone in my system is a carrot to hurt that person. Which is as good as it gets when immortals are involved.
//Drebble
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
|
Posted - 2011.02.07 09:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kepakh
If insurance is subtracted from the bounty and 100M worth T1 ship gets blown up, the bounty will be 60M only. And that is with default insurance.
Yes, if the pirate flies unfitted, insured, T1 ships the rest of his life there will be little ISK to get. But putting a bounty on someone and seeing them self-grief their game to incredibly booringness is money well spent in my book. Needless to say I dont think it is very likely to happen.
Originally by: Kepakh
However, problem is that this 'tweak' makes bounty collection non-profitable not only for the hunted but for hunter as well. That beats any meaningful purpose of bounty hunting as I pointed out above.
Its like ganking a faction fitted missionrunner in high sec. It takes skill, planning and opportunity.
Originally by: Kepakh
In a meaningful bounty hunting system, the value of bounty creates incentives and profit for the bounty hunters as well as increased danger for the hunted. Higher the bounty, more people I have on my back.
Your proposal though, denies the basic principles of bounty hunting, and converts the system into NPC bounties we can see on rats = bigger/harder the rat, more ISK I will collect.
There is no relation between the bounty and attractiveness of the target in your proposal as you move the bounty payout from the bounty to ship flown.
Any other system than loss based bounty payouts can and will be abused. I cannot stress this enough. Any other system WILL be abused. Its too easy to have an alt do the collection.
In a world where the criminal is immortal, the best you can do is create a carrot to hurt him.
When a criminal is in a faction fitted T3 cruiser with a 500 million bounty on his head, he will be a very attractive target. Anything destroyed goes to bounty payout, and the rest you get as loot.
If he only flies T1 cruisers with civilian modules, chances are he never will have a price on his head.
//Drebble
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
|
Posted - 2011.02.07 09:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kepakh
/thread
Thank you Sir for your in-depth, reasonable and well-constructed feedback.
//Drebble
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Drebble
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
|
Posted - 2011.02.07 09:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mag's
I think what he/she is saying is, with your idea, it'll be more profitable to gang mission runners than to hunt bounties.
Not bothered either way tbh, just like the wanted sign.
Well, I think there are a lot more missionrunners with high-value ships than there are wanted criminals with hundreds of millions on their heads. So yes, as a primary source of income, ganking missionrunners is a better career choice than bounty hunting. I am not terribly upset about this.
The primary goal of this system is to allow meaningful bounties at all. Bounty hunting as a mini-profession would come at a later stage, with bounty hunter licenses, concord LP and so on and so forth. But it all stand or falls with the non-exploitability of the payout system.
//Drebble
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