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Doom Dominix
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Posted - 2011.02.05 21:25:00 -
[1]
Okay, let's have few conditions (I've seen this happen few times now)
- there is a titan in a cyno jammed system (thus safe from capital hotdrops)
- titan pilot is part of a large alliance that can easily wield 100 capitals when alerted
- titan gets tackled by a gang (of 50-100 size)
Now, the titan is rather powerless alone and the gang is slowly killing the buffer-tanked titan while killing incoming small support. The question is what happens now?
The alliance that has the cyno jammer simply puts it down with no delay (it has no offlining delay or anything like that) followed by the titan pilot alliance cynoing 100 capitals on the attacking gang while saving the titan when it's about to hit structure.
My question is, should the cyno jammer have an offlining timer?
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Magnus Orin
Minmatar
United Systems Navy
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.02.06 00:03:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Magnus Orin on 06/02/2011 00:04:33
Perfectly balanced.
The system is then open for a counter hot drop.
To explain: you cannot then online the cynojammer right away after your friendly caps are in.
Your system is now exposed to enemy capital hotdrops.
Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you. |
Doom Dominix
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Posted - 2011.02.06 00:54:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Doom Dominix on 06/02/2011 00:54:41
 Originally by: Magnus Orin
Edited by: Magnus Orin on 06/02/2011 00:04:33
Perfectly balanced.
The system is then open for a counter hot drop.
To explain: you cannot then online the cynojammer right away after your friendly caps are in.
Your system is now exposed to enemy capital hotdrops.
Okay, so by your logic smaller entities should not have any chance at all to score a titan kill by simple tactics and it's all right to just encourage blobbing via escalation.
My point is that right now a sizable capital blob is an instant i-win button against a subcapital fleet. Having a timer on the offline timer of a jammer would make it possible for subcapital gangs to move freely, score some kills and bug off before jammer would cycle down.
With the current mechanic the subcapital gang might tackle a carrier, supercarrier or a titan only to be dropped by 100 more.
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Magnus Orin
Minmatar
United Systems Navy
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.02.06 01:01:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Doom Dominix
Edited by: Doom Dominix on 06/02/2011 00:54:41
Originally by: Magnus Orin
Edited by: Magnus Orin on 06/02/2011 00:04:33
Perfectly balanced.
The system is then open for a counter hot drop.
To explain: you cannot then online the cynojammer right away after your friendly caps are in.
Your system is now exposed to enemy capital hotdrops.
Okay, so by your logic smaller entities should not have any chance at all to score a titan kill by simple tactics and it's all right to just encourage blobbing via escalation.
My point is that right now a sizable capital blob is an instant i-win button against a subcapital fleet. Having a timer on the offline timer of a jammer would make it possible for subcapital gangs to move freely, score some kills and bug off before jammer would cycle down.
With the current mechanic the subcapital gang might tackle a carrier, supercarrier or a titan only to be dropped by 100 more.
All is fair in love and war.
Numbers will always be the largest contributing factor to power in Eve.
There is nothing wrong with this.
If you really want to titan kill, get friends, or make temporary NAPs to take it out.
It is common in Eve for the enemies of enemies to band together for a large kill despite being neutral to each other.
Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you. |
Doom Dominix
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Posted - 2011.02.06 01:59:00 -
[5]
While I think your point with numbers being the controlling factor always is true, I also think that you should be able to exercise some form of guerilla warfare. That is if you don't want EVE to become a game where every 0.0 system has a hictor+titan on gate and no-one can ever do anything about it (if one tries, he gets jumped by 100+ capitals) without a major deployment (which would probably force the said titans into more concentrated blobs).
CCP gave bombers as tools against subcapital blobs, where are our tools for capital blobs? ;)
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Magnus Orin
Minmatar
United Systems Navy
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.02.06 02:08:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Doom Dominix
While I think your point with numbers being the controlling factor always is true, I also think that you should be able to exercise some form of guerilla warfare. That is if you don't want EVE to become a game where every 0.0 system has a hictor+titan on gate and no-one can ever do anything about it (if one tries, he gets jumped by 100+ capitals) without a major deployment (which would probably force the said titans into more concentrated blobs).
CCP gave bombers as tools against subcapital blobs, where are our tools for capital blobs? ;)
Guerilla warfare is a perfect tactic in Eve. And it is used frequently :wulfpax:
But a cynojammer requires sovereignty, and is very expensive to maintain.
How do the two ideas fit together? I don't understand how guerilla warfare is relevant here.
Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you. |
Doom Dominix
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Posted - 2011.02.06 02:33:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Doom Dominix on 06/02/2011 02:36:57
Originally by: Magnus Orin
Originally by: Doom Dominix
While I think your point with numbers being the controlling factor always is true, I also think that you should be able to exercise some form of guerilla warfare. That is if you don't want EVE to become a game where every 0.0 system has a hictor+titan on gate and no-one can ever do anything about it (if one tries, he gets jumped by 100+ capitals) without a major deployment (which would probably force the said titans into more concentrated blobs).
CCP gave bombers as tools against subcapital blobs, where are our tools for capital blobs? ;)
Guerilla warfare is a perfect tactic in Eve. And it is used frequently :wulfpax:
But a cynojammer requires sovereignty, and is very expensive to maintain.
How do the two ideas fit together? I don't understand how guerilla warfare is relevant here.
What will a wolfpack do to a ratting supercarrier?
edit: (before a hypothetical jammer is pressed offline and you get loads of caps in to save the tackled sc instead of having to form subcapital fleet and engage the wolfpack with that)
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Trans-Solar Works
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Posted - 2011.02.06 02:37:00 -
[8]
In my opinion, it should have a brutal off-lining timer. It is a very powerful tool, and too easily abused by whoever owns it.
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Doom Dominix
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Posted - 2011.02.06 02:40:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Doom Dominix on 06/02/2011 02:42:04
Even few minutes of offlining the jammer would give small wolfpacks/hac gangs time to operate and gank a target of opportunity before they can be blobbed.
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ISK Fairy
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Posted - 2011.02.06 07:58:00 -
[10]
so what is to stop said alliance from pushing thier cap fleet through the jump bridges? all they need to do is have each cap have 5k ozone in thier hold and cyno onto a jb next door and then come in with out having to cycle the jammer
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Doom Dominix
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Posted - 2011.02.06 12:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ISK Fairy
so what is to stop said alliance from pushing thier cap fleet through the jump bridges? all they need to do is have each cap have 5k ozone in thier hold and cyno onto a jb next door and then come in with out having to cycle the jammer
Indeed, but in that situation you can create bubbles towards the JB towers OR bubble the reinforcement capitals at the JB tower itself, preventing any direct assistance. The problem with the cyno jammer down is that you can just get a recon at 0m from the ship in need of assistance and directly get the support at a comfortable distance.
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Magnus Orin
Minmatar
United Systems Navy
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.02.06 17:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Doom Dominix
Originally by: ISK Fairy
so what is to stop said alliance from pushing thier cap fleet through the jump bridges? all they need to do is have each cap have 5k ozone in thier hold and cyno onto a jb next door and then come in with out having to cycle the jammer
Indeed, but in that situation you can create bubbles towards the JB towers OR bubble the reinforcement capitals at the JB tower itself, preventing any direct assistance. The problem with the cyno jammer down is that you can just get a recon at 0m from the ship in need of assistance and directly get the support at a comfortable distance.
The thing is, they fought for their sov, and pay their monthly bill to cyno-jam the system.
You want to destroy their defensive options.
The defender should have the advantage in their sov.
Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you. |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.02.06 17:35:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Doom Dominix
My question is, should the cyno jammer have an offlining timer?
No, as it has an on-line timer.
You could have had a fleet of your own caps/supercaps, waiting to take advantage, so it was a calculated risk on their part.
Instead of whining on the forums about it, learn from it and maybe next time..........
Originally by: Allestin Villimar
Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax
Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Haseo Smith
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.06 20:03:00 -
[14]
Capital ships are made to be hard to kill by anything but capital ships.
(or ungodly masses of other ships.)
Guerrilla warfare is small hit and run, to cause a little bit of chaos and frustration to your enemy when you cant muster a force of equal power to take them head on.
That being said, Guerrilla tactics are Not meant to take out enormously powerful alliance assets.
if you want guerrilla warfare, use Blackops to drop ratters and miners who think they are safe in a cyno jammed system.
Side note: Buff black ops.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.02.06 20:27:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 06/02/2011 20:30:03
Originally by: Magnus Orin
..The system is then open for a counter hot drop...
For a whopping thirty minutes, 45 on the outside. Spare jammers ready to online was common years ago when last I lived in drama land and anchoring time is stupidly short.
Originally by: Magnus Orin
... But a cynojammer requires sovereignty, and is very expensive to maintain...
Sovereignty is easy as hell, blob something for a few days and you got it. ISK is even easier, evidenced by the rampant super-capital proliferation.
Originally by: Magnus Orin
...Numbers will always be the largest contributing factor to power in Eve...
Go back and read the DevBlog released prior to Dominion sovereignty changes. CCP actually wanted a system where the blob was not the alpha'n'omega, the failed miserably of course but the intent was quite different from what we have .. so there is indeed something very wrong with it.
Originally by: Haseo Smith
Capital ships are made to be hard to kill by anything but capital ships....
Not really, they die quickly enough to an organized 10+ gang.
Supers take longer but end result is the same .. the whole counter-counter-drop crap is a crutch used by fail FCs and other lowlifes and is a direct result of ISK being way too easy to acquire and capitals too easy to build.
Guerilla warfare does not exist outside of a roam with SC hotdrop capability (looking at you PL!  ).
Reason being that there is absolutely nothing to accomplish by engaging in that sort of activity.
There is nothing but ratters and station services to shoot, neither of which has any impact lasting or otherwise on the space holder.
Rehash the whole friggin thing. Everything from what can be done by a roam (offlining CSAA's, hit indices etc) to what requires "Da Blob" (sovereignty, stations etc.).
Hamsters Union demands sacrifices be made or extra turnips for all wheel-runners!
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Magnus Orin
Minmatar
United Systems Navy
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.02.07 00:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 06/02/2011 20:30:03
Originally by: Magnus Orin
..The system is then open for a counter hot drop...
For a whopping thirty minutes, 45 on the outside. Spare jammers ready to online was common years ago when last I lived in drama land and anchoring time is stupidly short.
Originally by: Magnus Orin
... But a cynojammer requires sovereignty, and is very expensive to maintain...
Sovereignty is easy as hell, blob something for a few days and you got it. ISK is even easier, evidenced by the rampant super-capital proliferation.
Originally by: Magnus Orin
...Numbers will always be the largest contributing factor to power in Eve...
Go back and read the DevBlog released prior to Dominion sovereignty changes. CCP actually wanted a system where the blob was not the alpha'n'omega, the failed miserably of course but the intent was quite different from what we have .. so there is indeed something very wrong with it.
Originally by: Haseo Smith
Capital ships are made to be hard to kill by anything but capital ships....
Not really, they die quickly enough to an organized 10+ gang.
Supers take longer but end result is the same .. the whole counter-counter-drop crap is a crutch used by fail FCs and other lowlifes and is a direct result of ISK being way too easy to acquire and capitals too easy to build.
Guerilla warfare does not exist outside of a roam with SC hotdrop capability (looking at you PL! ).
Reason being that there is absolutely nothing to accomplish by engaging in that sort of activity.
There is nothing but ratters and station services to shoot, neither of which has any impact lasting or otherwise on the space holder.
Rehash the whole friggin thing. Everything from what can be done by a roam (offlining CSAA's, hit indices etc) to what requires "Da Blob" (sovereignty, stations etc.).
Hamsters Union demands sacrifices be made or extra turnips for all wheel-runners!
If you cant set the trap in 30-45 minutes, then you don't deserve the kill.
Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you. |
Mister Normal
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Posted - 2011.02.07 05:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Doom Dominix
Okay, let's have few conditions (I've seen this happen few times now)
- there is a titan in a cyno jammed system (thus safe from capital hotdrops)
- titan pilot is part of a large alliance that can easily wield 100 capitals when alerted
- titan gets tackled by a gang (of 50-100 size)
Now, the titan is rather powerless alone and the gang is slowly killing the buffer-tanked titan while killing incoming small support. The question is what happens now?
The alliance that has the cyno jammer simply puts it down with no delay (it has no offlining delay or anything like that) followed by the titan pilot alliance cynoing 100 capitals on the attacking gang while saving the titan when it's about to hit structure.
My question is, should the cyno jammer have an offlining timer?
This is the devils advocate talking here...
Ok. You are attacking a titan, that somehow managed to get seperated from it's SC and cap fleets (to say nothing of it's sub cap support).
You are attacking a titan without support in it's own territory.
If this happened, then i would certainly want a cyno jammer to be able to drop quickly. to sllow caps in to assist.
There is the log off button as well. Usually alot more effective than a on-the-fly hot drop in tight situations. If this was not on the fly, then you have entered a trap, and sub cap support would be coming in pretty soon after you start attacking. Now that can be lots and lots of number, or about 20 Alpha Maels warping to 100km off you and snipe you away.
Even if you go after the maels, you are opening yourself up to the titans weapons.
Now in the past, Alliances like Rote Kappel (who killed TESTs first titan), or Morhus Mihi, and even PL, can tell you that killing a titan is nearly all about luck. The enemy FC makes a mistake. You come across some intel. Some lag happens etc.
Titans are guarded very very well, MOST of the time. Weather by a hot drop or not, your chances of getting a titan kill are slim. They are too valuable to waste, hence there is no delay in stopping the cyno jammer.
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Doom Dominix
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Posted - 2011.02.07 14:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Magnus Orin
If you cant set the trap in 30-45 minutes, then you don't deserve the kill.
Again, killing a blob with a bigger blob is becoming unfeasible as currently servers can't handle it (especially on unreinforced nodes).
Originally by: Mister Normal
They are too valuable to waste, hence there is no delay in stopping the cyno jammer.
Have you played the game recently? We are coming closer and closer to a situation where more and more people have titans, they need to start dying more. Same with supercarriers.
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