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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.02.19 12:12:00 -
[1]
That is all.
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Alec Freeman
Minmatar
Adventurers
Matari Visionary Coalition
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Posted - 2011.02.19 12:15:00 -
[2]
"Fly Safe" is fine too.
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.02.19 12:32:00 -
[3]
It's fine because we've become lazy in our language. Grammatically it is most definitely not fine.
But hey, at least it's not nearly as bad as people saying crap like "should of".
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Sinister Dextor
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Posted - 2011.02.19 12:51:00 -
[4]
Fly safely = fly in a responsible manner, don't don't run over any pensioners crossing the road etc etc.
Fly Safe = I hope you don't get blown up m8.
Not the same thing at all.
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.02.19 13:03:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Astenion on 19/02/2011 13:07:03
You cannot "fly safe" unless you're flying a locked iron box.
"Safe" is an adjective and adjectives modify nouns, not verbs. "Fly in a manner which is safe" would be the only way in the English language to use this without using the adverb "safely". The verb "to be" is exempt, such as "be safe".
"Think Different", Apple's slogan, is a play on words which most people still don't get because they're idiots in their own language. They're saying two things at once: "think differently" and think "DIFFERENT", as in, think of something different.
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yani dumyat
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.02.19 14:15:00 -
[6]
The rules of language are only snapshots of the methodology used to communicate between people at any given moment in time.
As an example take this quote from Hamlet: Originally by: Shakespeare
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pausełthere's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
Specifically look at the line "That makes calamity of so long life". If someone wrote that in a forum post today many would assume it was either a typo or that english was not the person's first language.
The rules of english have changed since Shakespeare's day because those rules are no more than a snapshot, language is how we communicate and rules are akin to an anthropological study of that communication.
In the same way a phrase like "fly safe" that can be used by one person and immediately understood by another is a perfectly valid form of communication. In this case it is the rules that need to be updated rather than have our communication held back by outdated notions of grammar.
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jason hill
Caldari
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.02.19 14:17:00 -
[7]
unless of course you flying with ryaniar
destroy everything you touch |
Sinister Dextor
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Posted - 2011.02.19 16:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Astenion
Edited by: Astenion on 19/02/2011 13:17:20
You cannot "fly safe" unless you're flying a locked iron box.
"Safe" is an adjective and adjectives modify nouns, not verbs. "Fly in a manner which is safe" would be the only way in the English language to use this without using the adverb "safely". The verb "to be" is exempt, such as "be safe".
"Think Different", Apple's slogan, is a play on words which most people still don't get because they're idiots in their own language. They're saying two things at once: most people take it as "think differently", but what they're really saying is think "DIFFERENT", as in, think of something different.
Actually you are wrong, safe can also be used as an adverb. 'Play safe'.
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.02.19 16:18:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sinister Dextor
Originally by: Astenion
Edited by: Astenion on 19/02/2011 13:17:20
You cannot "fly safe" unless you're flying a locked iron box.
"Safe" is an adjective and adjectives modify nouns, not verbs. "Fly in a manner which is safe" would be the only way in the English language to use this without using the adverb "safely". The verb "to be" is exempt, such as "be safe".
"Think Different", Apple's slogan, is a play on words which most people still don't get because they're idiots in their own language. They're saying two things at once: most people take it as "think differently", but what they're really saying is think "DIFFERENT", as in, think of something different.
Actually you are wrong, safe can also be used as an adverb. 'Play safe'.
No. If you're telling someone how to play, that would be SAFELY. You can "play it safe", which is a completely different notion. Again, the verbs for "be" are exempt.
I understand the need to update the usage of the English language, and it has been updated; however, some things never change, and using an adjective where you should use an adverb is one of those things. Just because millions of people do something wrong doesn't mean it should be changed so they can be right. No...THEY need to change their habits and have a little attention to detail when they speak.
It's the exact same reason why you don't say, "I'm doing good". It should be, "I'm doing well."
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Sinister Dextor
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Posted - 2011.02.19 16:29:00 -
[10]
I'm doing good.
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.02.19 16:33:00 -
[11]
You're having sex with a person, place, or thing named "good". Pics or it didn't happen.
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yani dumyat
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.02.19 16:45:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Astenion
Just because millions of people do something wrong doesn't mean it should be changed so they can be right. No...THEY need to change their habits and have a little attention to detail when they speak.
Why? (That's not a troll question, I'm genuinely intrigued to know how you can justify that statement in the context of language.)
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dr doooo
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Posted - 2011.02.19 16:53:00 -
[13]
Language evolves, and there's not much you elitist rule loving purists can do to hold back the tide of us ignorant free flowing heathens . c u l8er.
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.02.19 17:01:00 -
[14]
Haha, there's nothing "elitist" about it. We're not talking about extremely minor things like splitting infinitives or ending a sentence with a preposition, we're talking about not being able to speak your own language, even in the simplest ways.
Saying "drive safe" would be like saying "I have a safely car". It doesn't make sense. There's nothing purist or elitist about it; the fact that this concept is so hard to grasp for some people is quite sad. If we're not going to speak correctly, why do we even speak at all? Why don't we all just start using sign language instead?
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.02.19 17:11:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Astenion on 19/02/2011 17:14:31
Originally by: yani dumyat
Originally by: Astenion
Just because millions of people do something wrong doesn't mean it should be changed so they can be right. No...THEY need to change their habits and have a little attention to detail when they speak.
Why? (That's not a troll question, I'm genuinely intrigued to know how you can justify that statement in the context of language.)
Well, so we can all speak the same language correctly, making our discourse effective and clear. Why do you drive on the right or left side of the road in your country? Why do we use standard units of measurement? It's the same principle. Are you going to go to a metric country to buy a gallon of milk? Go ahead and open all those liters of milk in the grocery store and pour them into a bucket and take it up to the checkout counter and tell them you want to buy just the gallon you poured out and see how far that gets you. You can't mix and match a standard.
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Jno Aubrey
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.02.19 18:20:00 -
[16]
Why Can't the English Learn to Speak?
Oh, why can't the English learn to . . .
set a good example to people whose
English is painful to your ears?
The Scots and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely disappears.
In America, they haven't used it for years!
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.02.19 18:59:00 -
[17]
Classic! I love Audrey Hepburn.
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Selinate
Amarr
Red Water Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.02.19 19:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Astenion
Classic! I love Audrey Hepburn.
I'm no expert on the subject, but I'm pretty sure that makes you gay.
We support you, btw.
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Cpt Placeholder
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Posted - 2011.02.19 20:43:00 -
[19]
Good and safe may also be adverbs.
Languages change. Unless you have a good justification for accepting random evolutions of the past as "correct" and discarding more "recent" ones, which I doubt you do in this case, I don't think you have a point.
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yani dumyat
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.02.19 20:54:00 -
[20]
Language is not an exact science, if I say "I am happy" you can not measure that happiness in either litres or gallons, by contrast maths is about precision and 5 will always mean 5 whereas a single word can have many meanings.
That you seem to have become confused between english and maths makes little sense to me however I do understand that your analogy was in the context of this sentence:
Originally by: Astenion
Well, so we can all speak the same language correctly, making our discourse effective and clear.
You are asking the impossible, for example lets take the phrase, "That's pretty good." In Glasgow that phrase can be used to indicate a very high level of praise, it's often accompanied by a slow nodding of the head and a raise of the eyebrows to indicate that you're impressed.
In America I quickly learned that the famous British understatement is not readily understood, the phrase "That's pretty good" will be taken at face value and mean that you think something's ok but you're not overly impressed.
The point to all this is that we can never speak the same language because the clarity of our discourse is defined by cultural values. Perhaps the point is better made by the comedian Reginald D Hunter.
Then there is the issue of cultural imperialism, for the last couple of hundred years European countries have been vying to make as much of the world speak their language as possible. In return those countries we colonized have turned round and colonized our language.
With colonization comes a certain degree of antipathy towards being told what to do by a foreign power, people want to have their own culture and will use whatever language they know to communicate within that group.
I was going to write a witty spiel about how english is in fact a dialect of scots and you Oxford speakers should learn some proper enunciation and grammar. In true Scottish style however, ma pal's just called tae see if ah'm up fae a swallie, cheers fae a good thread n I'll see ya aboot. 
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Jno Aubrey
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.02.19 21:07:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cpt Placeholder
Unless you have a good justification for accepting random evolutions of the past as "correct" and discarding more "recent" ones, which I doubt you do in this case, I don't think you have a point.
It's called a "dictionary" and can be quite useful in telling you about the proper use of words.
__________________________________________________
Name a shrub after me; something prickly and hard to eradicate. |
Malaclypse Muscaria
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Posted - 2011.02.19 21:08:00 -
[22]
I think Stephen's Fry brilliant video-essay on Language is quite relevant here.
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Cpt Placeholder
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Posted - 2011.02.19 21:32:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jno Aubrey
Originally by: Cpt Placeholder
Unless you have a good justification for accepting random evolutions of the past as "correct" and discarding more "recent" ones, which I doubt you do in this case, I don't think you have a point.
It's called a "dictionary" and can be quite useful in telling you about the proper use of words.
Natural language grammar is descriptive, not prescriptive. You're shifting the responsibility, what justification do the dictionary writers have? They just follow the trends.
If you care to check:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/safe
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/good
You will find that they're listed as adverbs as well.
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Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
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Posted - 2011.02.19 21:51:00 -
[24]
An IBM supercomputer beat the two Jeopardy game champions. Yes a computer can do millions of permutation calculations a second but Jeopardy plays on suttle sub context meanings. If supercomputers can build on this language context analysis then I suppose a dictionary parsing application can be developed so computers have their own version of human language dictionaries. With this one particular type of semantic toolbox others could be developed such as a psychology semantic toolbox.
When supercomputers from this and more start writing songs with good lyrics on the same level of artistry as say Bob Dylan and Radiohead that would be amazing and rather scary.
..................................................
One man with courage is a majority
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.02.19 21:59:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Malaclypse Muscaria
I think Stephen's Fry brilliant video-essay on Language is quite relevant here.
Yes, but Fry's point wasn't that language use is interchangeable just because you want it to be. He even explains this, but I guess you weren't paying attention. His aim wasn't at people who dislike bad grammar; on the contrary, it was aimed at people who are unwilling to experiment with language. Saying something like, "He talks good" is not experimenting with language. It is, in fact, quite the opposite, and when you make such simple, base mistakes such as the aforementioned sentence, you are killing your language.
Experimenting and making language exciting has nothing to do with being ignorant of speaking properly. I'd bet my salary that Stephen Fry knows the difference between an adjective and an adverb and uses both in the correct manner. You see him taking shots at people who take grammar to the extreme and liken it to him saying it's ok to be ignorant. No.
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.02.19 22:05:00 -
[26]
Originally by: yani dumyat
Language is not an exact science, if I say "I am happy" you can not measure that happiness in either litres or gallons, by contrast maths is about precision and 5 will always mean 5 whereas a single word can have many meanings.
That you seem to have become confused between english and maths makes little sense to me however I do understand that your analogy was in the context of this sentence:
Originally by: Astenion
Well, so we can all speak the same language correctly, making our discourse effective and clear.
You are asking the impossible, for example lets take the phrase, "That's pretty good." In Glasgow that phrase can be used to indicate a very high level of praise, it's often accompanied by a slow nodding of the head and a raise of the eyebrows to indicate that you're impressed.
In America I quickly learned that the famous British understatement is not readily understood, the phrase "That's pretty good" will be taken at face value and mean that you think something's ok but you're not overly impressed.
The point to all this is that we can never speak the same language because the clarity of our discourse is defined by cultural values. Perhaps the point is better made by the comedian Reginald D Hunter.
Then there is the issue of cultural imperialism, for the last couple of hundred years European countries have been vying to make as much of the world speak their language as possible. In return those countries we colonized have turned round and colonized our language.
With colonization comes a certain degree of antipathy towards being told what to do by a foreign power, people want to have their own culture and will use whatever language they know to communicate within that group.
I was going to write a witty spiel about how english is in fact a dialect of scots and you Oxford speakers should learn some proper enunciation and grammar. In true Scottish style however, ma pal's just called tae see if ah'm up fae a swallie, cheers fae a good thread n I'll see ya aboot.
The difference between the usage of "that's pretty good" has nothing to do with my argument. "That's pretty good" is a correct sentence. If you said, "That's pretty well", it would be a different story. The meaning of phrases in different cultures has no impact on the subject, as different phrases can have different meanings in all cultures.
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Alotta Baggage
Amarr
Imperial Manufactorum
Armada Assail
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Posted - 2011.02.19 22:11:00 -
[27]
All y'all need ta fly safe 
Originally by: Magnus Andronicus
ur character looks like a f***ing clown dude.
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Malaclypse Muscaria
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Posted - 2011.02.19 22:19:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Astenion
Originally by: Malaclypse Muscaria
I think Stephen's Fry brilliant video-essay on Language is quite relevant here.
Yes, but Fry's point wasn't that language use is interchangeable just because you want it to be.
Nice strawman
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.02.19 22:20:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Astenion on 19/02/2011 22:21:21
Originally by: Cpt Placeholder
Good and safe may also be adverbs.
Languages change. Unless you have a good justification for accepting random evolutions of the past as "correct" and discarding more "recent" ones, which I doubt you do in this case, I don't think you have a point.
Yes, as I said: WHEN THEY ARE USED IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE VERB "TO BE".
He is safe.
She is good.
He is bad.
It's describing how he/she IS, which is allowed. Just because it's used for am/are/is/was/were/etc. doesn't mean "drive safe" is correct. It's not. It's not even a little correct. It's completely wrong. There is no grey area here...it's not interchangeable. Just because you're comfortable saying it doesn't mean it's correct.
No one will probably notice, however, because in a society that spells "could've" as "could of", ignorance is the new standard.
Ever seen Idiocracy? If enough people start saying black is white, then black will become white, even though it's complete bullsh!t.
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Jno Aubrey
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.02.19 22:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Cpt Placeholder
Originally by: Jno Aubrey
Originally by: Cpt Placeholder
Unless you have a good justification for accepting random evolutions of the past as "correct" and discarding more "recent" ones, which I doubt you do in this case, I don't think you have a point.
It's called a "dictionary" and can be quite useful in telling you about the proper use of words.
Natural language grammar is descriptive, not prescriptive. You're shifting the responsibility, what justification do the dictionary writers have? They just follow the trends.
If you care to check:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/safe
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/good
You will find that they're listed as adverbs as well.
I wasn't arguing about the use of "good" and "safe" but I appreciate you helping to make my point by referring to the dictionary as authority on the subject. 
__________________________________________________
Name a shrub after me; something prickly and hard to eradicate. |
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