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[WALLOFTEXT] Attack Frigs vs Combat Ceptors

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Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 493	Posted - 2012.08.23 17:54:00 - [1] - Quote It has been the opinion of a lot of people since the attack frigate rebalance that they now, more than ever, obsolete combat ceptors (Crow/Crusader/Claw/Taranis). It has also been common opinion since the t1 combat frigate and AF buffs that combat ceptors have ceased to be useful. Let's start with the first point: T1 attack frigates now obsolete the combat ceptors, because they do almost the same job for cheaper. First, note that the interceptors have the MWD sig bonus. This is often under-appreciated but rather important, even for ships that fight at close ranges. Neither the attack frigates nor interceptors have great EHP. The t1 attack frigates, on the approach, are at a grave risk of being instapopped or at least losing a ton of their hitpoints on the approach if anything locks them. Even at great speed, a 210-sig Atron isn't going to speedtank much on the approach (even if you approach at an angle). Now, let's take a relatively standard Taranis fit and an equivalent on the Atron. [Taranis, Not Dualprop] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Stasis Webifier II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Salvager I /OFFLINE Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Hornet II x2 and [Atron, Brawl] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Salvager I /OFFLINE Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I The Atron has 181 DPS to the Taranis' 272 (part of which is drones, which are more reliable). The Atron has 2.35K EHP to the Taranis' 3.88K. The Atron has 4048 ms MWD speed and 3.65s MWD align time to the Taranis' 3993 and 3.65. The Taranis also has a sig radius one point larger. The Atron ~does~ have a falloff bonus, however, which gives it more falloff - not that that's terribly important in a setup like this. So, basically, the Taranis is an Atron with 65% more tank and 50% more DPS and the MWD sig bonus. Interceptor hulls are cheap; the Atron fit has a Pyfa-estimated cost of 8.82 mil, whereas the Taranis is 23.6 mil. The Taranis has an extremely noticeable improvement in DPS and tank while costing under three times as much fully-fit. When insurance is taken into account, this difference will actually become smaller because the Slasher hull is worth less than the mineral cost of the Taranis hull. Now, let's look at the Slasher. I cannot do completely identical fits as the Slasher is decidedly shield tanked and the Claw is an armor tank, but I can come close. [Claw, MWD/rep with Polycarbs] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S Small Nosferatu II Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I and [Slasher, Real Slasher] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Medium Shield Extender II 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S [Empty High slot] Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Core Defense Field Extender I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I The Slasher has 30 base sig, which appears to be one of its biggest benefits. However, after the MSE and rigs, it ends up with a very mediocre 40.5, killing its ability to sig tank. Furthermore, while the Slasher actually has more EHP, the Claw has a nos/rep which will ensure that, in practice, it tanks harder and is less vulnerable to neuts. To finish it off, the Claw ends up with 20% more damage. The Claw has slightly superior speed and slightly inferior agility After fittings, the Claw costs under double the Slasher at 18.3m compared to 8.7 mil. Slightly superior damage and tank, vastly improved sig tanking ability, and it costs you double. From a cost/performance point of view, combat ceptors seem perfectly balanced against the new t1 attack frigates. However, I've also heard moaning that they're just not useful in general relative to other frigate hulls, usually tied to the fact that they lose to most other frigs in a 1v1. However, while I'd agree that neither of the two classes make good solo ships, they work fantastically in gangs. In gangs of other classes of ships, they allow you to have something fast to grab tackle without having to sacrifice a full pilot to a tackle ceptor that will do nothing other than get point. In gangs of their own kind (imagine a gang of Taranises...), they are powerful enough to kill most things other than equal numbers of assault frigates or cruisers while being able to easily escape from such fights, and the ability to force such fights on everyone else... This is not to say all is fine. I compared the Gallente and Minmatar frigates for a reason; it's rather common knowledge that CCP needs to go back and revisit Amarr and Caldari interceptors (which have both needed it for years).
Ginger Barbarella State War Academy Caldari State 78	Posted - 2012.08.23 18:13:00 - [2] - Quote I agree, that was a Wall Of Text.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 1981	Posted - 2012.08.23 18:30:00 - [3] - Quote Hey man, I think this is a great post. However, I'd like to bring up several points: - I tend to see AB fit combat ceptors. This means that the MWD sig bonus is basically meaningless - Combat ceptors do have bigger tanks and more DPS (generally) - Combat ceptors cost more, but this doesn't matter really. - The biggest problems crop up when a new attack frigate is capable of something that's significantly better than the combat ceptor. The Executioner vs Crusader is a great example here, because the Executioner has 3 mids and room for a nos. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 494	Posted - 2012.08.23 18:56:00 - [4] - Quote I don't see the purpose of an AB combat ceptor, unless it's dualprop. You give up a ton of tackle/GTFO power for the ability to control range and sig tank better, neither of which are problems for ceptors. Quote: - The biggest problems crop up when a new attack frigate is capable of something that's significantly better than the combat ceptor. The Executioner vs Crusader is a great example here, because the Executioner has 3 mids and room for a nos. And the Crow has 50 less CPU (after skills) than the Condor does. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with a t1 variant doing something the t2 variant doesn't (That's pretty common after all) - but the t2 variant should be better at the ship's role than the t1 variant. I haven't really studied the executioner, though, so I can't speak to that.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 1981	Posted - 2012.08.23 19:10:00 - [5] - Quote Kahega Amielden wrote: I don't see the purpose of an AB combat ceptor, unless it's dualprop. You give up a ton of tackle/GTFO power for the ability to control range and sig tank better, neither of which are problems for ceptors. I'm not sure it matters if you see the purpose of an AB combat ceptor. What matters is that most of them out there are AB fit. As for me: I AB fit my combat ceptors because I like close range fits and I've found it gives me a much larger chance of victory. The only time I'd say I'm MWD fit on a frigate is for kiting frigs (Rail Atron, Beam Executioner, Pulse Slicer, etc). -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Vilnius Zar Ordo Ardish 142	Posted - 2012.08.23 20:08:00 - [6] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Kahega Amielden wrote: I don't see the purpose of an AB combat ceptor, unless it's dualprop. You give up a ton of tackle/GTFO power for the ability to control range and sig tank better, neither of which are problems for ceptors. I'm not sure it matters if you see the purpose of an AB combat ceptor. What matters is that most of them out there are AB fit. As for me: I AB fit my combat ceptors because I like close range fits and I've found it gives me a much larger chance of victory. The only time I'd say I'm MWD fit on a frigate is for kiting frigs (Rail Atron, Beam Executioner, Pulse Slicer, etc). -Liang IIRC you always went "lol AB fits" :P I like my Ab fitted fast frigs though and per OP (good post btw) the inties are lacking quite a bit compared to the redone T1 frigs, most of them at least. Amat victoria curam.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 1982	Posted - 2012.08.23 20:43:00 - [7] - Quote Vilnius Zar wrote: IIRC you always went "lol AB fits" :P It's true, I do like to stand and deliver.. so to speak. But I do occasionally use a MWD frig. I have about 20 MWD frigs in Amamake right now, but the overwhelming majority are AB fit. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Hatsumi Kobayashi Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 181	Posted - 2012.08.24 01:31:00 - [8] - Quote Kahega Amielden wrote: WoT Your fits are horrible Contentless comments aside, the Combat 'ceptors's predicament isn't entirely due to the revamped Attack Frigates; it's more about the compounded effect of buffed Assault Frigates with Attack Frigates that leave something to be desired from 'ceptors. The Taranis has always been a terrific combat ship, meaning that it's probably the one coming out the best out of the deal. The Claw is rather decent, but it has a lot of shortcomings that make the Slasher better in comparison (shortcomings you don't mention in your post). The Crow and Crusader just get crushed under the better alternatives and any comparison is moot - the Amarr and Caldari Combat 'ceptors don't manage to stand out as viable. My point, in short, is that your comparisons are skewed by bad fitting decisions and biased both by the cases presented and a lack of depth in your argument. CAUTION SNIGGS
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 495	Posted - 2012.08.24 01:38:00 - [9] - Quote Quote: Contentless comments aside, the Combat 'ceptors's predicament isn't entirely due to the revamped Attack Frigates; it's more about the compounded effect of buffed Assault Frigates with Attack Frigates that leave something to be desired from 'ceptors. The Taranis has always been a terrific combat ship, meaning that it's probably the one coming out the best out of the deal. The Claw is rather decent, but it has a lot of shortcomings that make the Slasher better in comparison (shortcomings you don't mention in your post). ... ... i'm waiting for you to explain what these shortcomings are and why the fits I posted fail to adequately compare the ships.
Hatsumi Kobayashi Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 181	Posted - 2012.08.24 02:06:00 - [10] - Quote Because you honestly don't know, or because you disagree with my assessment? CAUTION SNIGGS
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 495	Posted - 2012.08.24 03:39:00 - [11] - Quote Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote: Because you honestly don't know, or because you disagree with my assessment? I would not have posted if I did.
Katalci SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 125	Posted - 2012.08.24 15:12:00 - [12] - Quote Kahega Amielden wrote: [Taranis, Not Dualprop] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Stasis Webifier II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Salvager I /OFFLINE Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Hornet II x2 :hugecripes:
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 1990	Posted - 2012.08.24 16:48:00 - [13] - Quote Kahega Amielden wrote: Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote: Because you honestly don't know, or because you disagree with my assessment? I would not have posted if I did. The fits are pretty bad, but you fit all ships equally bad so the comparison wasn't that far off. I found that the Taranis was still better than the Atron, but I think that's the only one that was. The Slasher, Executioner, and Condor were all equivalent to superior to their combat inty equivalents - primarily owing to the fact that they all have more mids than their T2 counterpart. But fitting space also feels much more spacious. I will admit that I didn't look at the Slasher vs Claw very closely - but then all Minmatar frigates have been garbage for a long time now. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 499	Posted - 2012.08.24 17:17:00 - [14] - Quote ...so the nano on the taranis is actually a fair point. Quote: The Slasher, Executioner, and Condor were all equivalent to superior to their combat inty equivalents - primarily owing to the fact that they all have more mids than their T2 counterpart. But fitting space also feels much more spacious. I will admit that I didn't look at the Slasher vs Claw very closely - but then all Minmatar frigates have been garbage for a long time now. -Liang Ed: I am curious whether you think that your rep claw is going to win out vs a dual MASB Slasher with a nos? How about a MSE+MASB Slasher? Slasher v Claw seems fine to me, and I definitely don't think either are garbage.. MASB may tilt things in favor of the Slasher but only because MASBs are bullshit and not really because the Slasher's base stats are unreasonable..
Gibbo3771 AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 202	Posted - 2012.08.24 17:34:00 - [15] - Quote I honestly cant sit and read a wall of text belonging to someone that fits nanofibers on a Taranis and polycarbons on a plated Claw, before you start making suggestions and addressing useless frigates at least learn how to fit them first. Everytime you dont like my comments/posts the terrorists win and your a disgrace to your country.
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 499	Posted - 2012.08.24 17:41:00 - [16] - Quote Gibbo3771 wrote: I honestly cant sit and read a wall of text belonging to someone that fits nanofibers on a Taranis and polycarbons on a plated Claw, before you start making suggestions and addressing useless frigates at least learn how to fit them first. The EHP loss of polycarbs on a plated Claw exist but are marginal. It's a difference of 250 EHP.
Deena Amaj Community for Justice Resurrection by Election 29	Posted - 2012.08.24 18:14:00 - [17] - Quote There is nothing wrong with being thorough in theorycrafting. confirthisposmed Yes. I'm a writer. And I'm a writer.
Mutant Caldari Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY 14	Posted - 2012.08.24 18:15:00 - [18] - Quote Katalci wrote: Kahega Amielden wrote: [Taranis, Not Dualprop] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Stasis Webifier II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S Salvager I /OFFLINE Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Hornet II x2 :hugecripes: I really can't fathom your reasoning behind putting a nano on a Taranis... Maybe you just never noticed/didn't read its effects? And why you're using Hornets... It just doesn't make any sense. Most of your damage is already kinetic! Hobgoblins would make sense because they do more damage, warrior IIs are the usual because of their awesomeness/damage type, but hornets are just... Wow. Fly this fit (you can use a t1 meta 0 MAPC if you have good fitting skills) https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_kill.php?id=529925 That fit...Lol. Leave yourself completely vulnerable to neuts for 18 DPS, gg. [Taranis, Dual Prop] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Warrior II x2 296 DPS compared to 314(336 compared to 357 overheated), has a NOS and the rest of the stats are the same. However, I do want to agree that the OP has no idea how to fit ships properly. (y)
Gibbo3771 AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 205	Posted - 2012.08.25 00:08:00 - [19] - Quote Kahega Amielden wrote: Gibbo3771 wrote: I honestly cant sit and read a wall of text belonging to someone that fits nanofibers on a Taranis and polycarbons on a plated Claw, before you start making suggestions and addressing useless frigates at least learn how to fit them first. The EHP loss of polycarbs on a plated Claw exist but are marginal. It's a difference of 250 EHP. 250EHP loss on a frigate is like losing 5k on a bs. Everything counts, the fits are bad. Nuff said. Anyone disagrees with that clearly never flies frigates or is stuck behind the 3 speed mod x2 speed rig tackling ceptors that die in 1 shot from anything. Everytime you dont like my comments/posts the terrorists win and your a disgrace to your country.

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