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Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.21 10:49:00 -
[1]
To hell with pre-made crap you can't use except in an extreme niche and with only one or two non-darwin fittings. To hell with magic "role bonuses" that do not depend on anything. Hail custom ships! Hail player-made blueprints!
Here's what I suggest:
- Player buys a chassis, essentially a platform with no set purpose aside from one dictated by its size and shape.
- This platform has X units of space to fill with anything the player wants to, i.e: "Reactor A provides M powergrid and cap recharge rate of N, while taking up Q units of space."
"Capacitor Charge Array B, an addon to the reactor (reactor required), boosts cap recharge rate by Q/sec at the cost of Y units of reactor's powergrid, and takes up R units of space."
etc, etc, etc, with all the unused space is converted into cargo hold.
- Once all the modules necessary (meaning those giving the ship its powergrid, cpu output, propulsion strength, sensors strength, etc) are put into place, player finalizes the blueprint.
- Now, the bill of materials is calculated, depending on what equipment is being used plus a certain amount for mounting racks, cable structure and all other minor vitals.
- Finally, the player can build her own type of ship designed specifically to suit her needs.
An example.
Say, I have an Orca. I don't want a corporate support vessel, therefore I discard corporate hangars and ship maintenance bay. I don't want a specialized ore dump either, so I discard it as well. Now I have some space to spare. What do I do with it? Say, I want a massive mining operation. I install a strip mining support module. It's a sophisticated piece of machinery, so I need to replace both my reactor and mainframe to provide the necessary boost of powergrid and cpu output. Therefore, the cost of my new Orca rises, and I suffer an additional penalty in available space, 'cause a bigger reactor needs more of it, naturally, as the bigger mainframe does. I want a few more high slots to equip a cloaking device and a couple more strip miners, so I sacrifice even more space for it. When I'm done with it, I have a much more expensive version of Orca, which boasts six hi-power slots, allowing me to use both strip mining modules AND gang links (I didn't touch that part of the ship, did I?). I don't have a hangar anymore, which is sad in some cases, but instead I have a new HUGE cargo hold, three times the original one.
What do I get while sacrificing all of it? Specialization. I have a vessel COMPLETELY fitting my needs. At the cost of complexity and loss of some vital features, yes, but as I don't care much for cost and don't use these feats anyway, I have a ship that fully serves a purpose I have for it.
Discuss?
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.02.21 10:55:00 -
[2]
Sounds like T4.
All for it.
Won't hold my breath for it though.
Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!  |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.21 11:12:00 -
[3]
Nonononono. It's not about T4 or T5, or some other TN+m. I'm talking about making the pre-made garbage with magic superpowers derived from nothing more transparent. Say, sell a Kestrel chassis, while the former Kestrel only representing one type of core modules composition, not the only one possible.
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Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Zaneta Enterprises Inc
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Posted - 2011.02.21 12:44:00 -
[4]
This was the just of my proposal on how to set up re-think T3.
The system is theoretically self-balancing, and basically infinite, so that CCP wouldn't have to spend much time developing and balancing new ships in the future.
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Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.21 13:04:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Suiginryou Hitaiga on 21/02/2011 13:07:05
I further it. ^_^
No set HP - structure is determined by type and space taken by core modules, and armor is mounted on ships manually.
No set number of slots - it depends on core equipment, as well.
The only things remaining are mass and volume, with space to be fitted with core modules calculated from these two.
Also, I don't suggest adding this kind of industry to the existing one. I suggest replacing it completely. No more Tx+1, just chassis for manufacturers to tinker with, while existing ships are considered reference samples of chassis/hull assembly.
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Da Trader
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Posted - 2011.02.21 13:10:00 -
[6]
I do like the idea, but amount of work to implement and balance it is too big to be expected any time soon. More creative crafting is better, but most people want just login to pew-pew and EVE is ruled by majority...
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Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Zaneta Enterprises Inc
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Posted - 2011.02.21 13:29:00 -
[7]
My thinking is that each hull should have some base statistics that could be modified by players. The more extreme the bonuses they attach to a hull, the more expensive the innovation becomes. This would act as a self-governing mechanism, so that while players would have a broad brush with which to create new ships, the sheer costs of creating an unbeatable ship class would make it impossible.
The only thing CCP might need to do is introduce some new modules once and awhile if some extreme variants become inherently over-powered (i.e., the underlying function of the module is overpowered, not the ship).
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GizzyBoy
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Posted - 2011.02.21 13:35:00 -
[8]
Edited by: GizzyBoy on 21/02/2011 13:36:08
I understand what you want.
But its super tricky...
and if you think things aren't particularly well balanced now..
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Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Zaneta Enterprises Inc
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Posted - 2011.02.21 13:37:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Da Trader
I do like the idea, but amount of work to implement and balance it is too big to be expected any time soon. More creative crafting is better, but most people want just login to pew-pew and EVE is ruled by majority...
Arguably, it would be self-balancing. If one ship design gets too powerful in a given role, there will be a financial incentive for someone to design a counter-ship. The ISK cost of large modification would make I-win-button designs untenable.
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Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Zaneta Enterprises Inc
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Posted - 2011.02.21 13:46:00 -
[10]
Originally by: GizzyBoy
Edited by: GizzyBoy on 21/02/2011 13:36:08
I understand what you want.
But its super tricky...
and if you think things aren't particularly well balanced now..
But that's part of the point. CCP has to introduce new ships, assess their impact (balance on the game) and then adjust. The process is repeated, often across the span of entire years (during which, the unbalanced ships are running around unchallenged). This takes up huge amounts of dev-time and endless frustration/complaining on the part of players. Under this kind of customizable system, any overpowered ship could be quickly countered, either by private inventors seeking to make a profit or by alliances seeking to maintain their edge.
As with just about everything else in EVE, the market can handle it.
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Da Trader
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Posted - 2011.02.21 14:05:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Doctor Invictus
If one ship design gets too powerful in a given role, there will be a financial incentive for someone to design a counter-ship. The ISK cost of large modification would make I-win-button designs untenable.
just assume you can mix bonuses of existing t1 and t2 cruisers, what is a counter-ship for Falcon? Vaga?
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Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Zaneta Enterprises Inc
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Posted - 2011.02.21 14:27:00 -
[12]
Arguably, the bonuses shouldn't be limited to just the ones currently seen on existing ships, but should be encompass just about anything. And so, whatever one ship is overpowered on, another ship can counter.
For the Falcon (I assume you're talking about its ECM bonuses), a hull with heavy ECCM bonuses (cap use, range, duration, strength, etc) would be appropriate to counter those effects.
Or am I missing a point?
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Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.21 15:16:00 -
[13]
You're missing a part of the point.
I suggest NO bonuses attached to chassis/hulls. I suggest these bonuses to be ruled by equipment, just as everything else. No more fixed role buffs, no more ship buffs, you craft your own ship, including the bonus(es) it carries, role or not.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.02.21 15:31:00 -
[14]
So, something along the lines of the vehicle building in Alpha Centauri?
It would be a cast-iron ***** to get right, balance-wise and price-wise, but other than that it could be funà
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.21 15:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tippia
So, something along the lines of the vehicle building in Alpha Centauri?
It would be a cast-iron bntch to get right, balance-wise and price-wise, but other than that it could be funà
More like in Ascendancy, but yes, you've got the point. Of course, that'll require hell of a lot of balancing, but the result is worth it, I think. Everybody gets his/her/hir dream ship, and everything balances itself, in the end.
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Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Zaneta Enterprises Inc
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Posted - 2011.02.21 15:51:00 -
[16]
The downside, if I'm understanding right, is that T3 ships fufilling a given role would be much outperformed by their T2 (or T1?) equivalents.
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Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.21 15:53:00 -
[17]
More or less, yes, as it will render all "Tech X" approach obsolete, if implemented as intended. If not, it will be useless itself.
___
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monkfish1234
Caldari
The Ankou
Raiden.
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Posted - 2011.02.21 16:03:00 -
[18]
I like the idea of this, but i tinhk at the moment it's just too much to be able to look at in a reasonable time. This kind of change would take a long time to develop. T3 ships were a step towards that direction.
Also to address what some of the other people have already said i don't think there would be any value in removing the ships currently availiable. But allowing the Current hulls to be developed into differant variations would be good. (TBH i think this kind of approach would fit the T4) tag quite well. Just don't expect anytihng like this soon. CCP are far to busy with WiS and i imagine integration for when Dust514 eventually comes out.
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Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels.StevieSG
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Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Zaneta Enterprises Inc
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Posted - 2011.02.21 16:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Suiginryou Hitaiga
More or less, yes, as it will render all "Tech X" approach obsolete, if implemented as intended. If not, it will be useless itself.
Ah, ok. I was thinking that this wouldn't make sense if T1/T2 were sitting next to it. Of course, removing those ships is unlikely to happen, I would imagine.
That's why (in my plan) I try to retain T1 as the basic ships that everyone and their dog can access/use, T2 as the more specialized but still common ships, and T3 as the infinitely customizable, but hard to acquire extreme.
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Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.21 16:20:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Doctor Invictus
That's why (in my plan) I try to retain T1 as the basic ships that everyone and their dog can access/use, T2 as the more specialized but still common ships, and T3 as the infinitely customizable, but hard to acquire extreme.
In my plan, ex-T1 and ex-T2 are kept intact, as reference samples of certain chassis. T3 ships don't fit into it though. Well, not as they are now.
___
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Linna Excel
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Posted - 2011.02.21 17:33:00 -
[21]
Sounds like you want a MoO form of customization. I wouldn't be against that.
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Da Trader
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Posted - 2011.02.21 18:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Doctor Invictus
For the Falcon (I assume you're talking about its ECM bonuses), a hull with heavy ECCM bonuses (cap use, range, duration, strength, etc) would be appropriate to counter those effects.
I meant bonuses already used in existing hulls. I like the idea but I just think that even if you limit yourself with current bonuses, but using them as 'bricks' there is still a hell to balance.
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Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Zaneta Enterprises Inc
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Posted - 2011.02.21 18:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Da Trader
I meant bonuses already used in existing hulls. I like the idea but I just think that even if you limit yourself with current bonuses, but using them as 'bricks' there is still a hell to balance.
What do you think would need to be balanced?
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betoli
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Posted - 2011.02.21 18:41:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Suiginryou Hitaiga
To hell with pre-made crap you can't use except in an extreme niche and with only one or two non-darwin fittings.
Discuss?
Its a nice idea. I think the problem for me is high sec. At present most ships are tenable general purpose space vessels, because of the concord presence in hs, this isn't really needed. If I could design a completely flexible (I can channel all resources into one feature) wouldn't you wind up with extremely specialised ships that are unrealistic and game breaking? For example a level 4 is trivial if you have an uber-tank/uber gank ship pair, neither of which would survive 2 seconds in a real environment....
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Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Zaneta Enterprises Inc
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Posted - 2011.02.21 18:45:00 -
[25]
That's a definite problem for highly customizable ships. It works really well in a PvP context, or even one where players are 'competing' more generally, such as in a market or mining, but there's no doubt that for PvE, someone would inevitable design a L4 machine.
The only obvious way around this that I can think of is to either not let highly customized ships do missions or not let them in hi-sec at all.
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Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.23 21:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Doctor Invictus
someone would inevitable
Originally by: betoli
For example a level 4 is trivial if you have an uber-tank/uber gank ship pair, neither of which would survive 2 seconds in a real environment....
One word: Sansha.
With complete customization, events like this, will at least mean something.
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Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.02.23 21:57:00 -
[27]
My idea has scientist making thier own modules not sure how well it can be applied to ships though in the sisters of eve idea where they have to go out and find the information to allow for alterations when they metalevel up a module. They're limited on how many levels of reserach they can do to an item before it turns into its tech 2 version where it starts to eat up stats from other systems.
To modify the idea to work for ship would require some... creativity.
Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 20JAN11
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Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Nova Fox
My idea has scientist making thier own modules not sure how well it can be applied to ships though in the sisters of eve idea where they have to go out and find the information to allow for alterations when they metalevel up a module. They're limited on how many levels of reserach they can do to an item before it turns into its tech 2 version where it starts to eat up stats from other systems.
To modify the idea to work for ship would require some... creativity.
Player-created modules?.. I don't think it can be balanced.
___
Remove insurance payouts for concord kills
Make wardecs expensive and declinable
Make SS go -1.0 per offense
Remove L4 agents from hisec
Allow non-corp hisec POS and moon mining |
Spirulina Laxissima
Minmatar
TotalControl Inc.
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Posted - 2011.02.25 22:04:00 -
[29]
Do want.
The only things that are stopping me from doing something similar to my car IRL, are the legislative (all cars need to be as in papers, and those papers are prohibitively expensive), and the executive (loss of money, loss of car, loss of freedom, loss of life).
Unfortunately I don't have a clone IRL. 
Your signature is too large. Spitfire
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Asa Tru
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Posted - 2011.02.27 11:44:00 -
[30]
I actually think that would be a great idea. You can only apply a certain amount of TOTAL bonus based on hull size and player skill level, that way you don't end up having something that gives both 200% bonus to armor resist and 200% bonus to weapon damage :P You can spread them out, 5% here, 10% there, or stack them, etc. It would be self balancing, because as long as there's a limit on how MUCH of a bonus can be applied, no one will have an uber ship. Another skill set for making "t2" level of bonuses, but would also end up making the ship much more expensive.
And just for fairness's sake .... you can't insure them. Ever.
But Yeah, I would definitely love to fly my own hand tailored ship.
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