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Alfred Lim
Order of the Ebon Hand
The Jagged Alliance
5
   |
Posted - 2012.08.24 05:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
To prevent Margin Trading Scam and yet to preserve Margin Trading for bona fide trader, I propose that the maximum quantity to be modified. Margin Trading should no longer be able to set the minimum buy quantity above 1(ONE) unit or 1% of the quantity of the total intended buy quantity. Say if a trader wish to acquire 1,000,000 Titanium, he can be allow to set the minimum buy quantity of 1,000 units.
This will prevent Margin Trading from scamming using the game mechanics. Since the creation of Margin Trading is for player to purchase items but may require long wait due to market pricing and availability, there is no reason why player would have no enough money in his/her own wallet to cover at least 1% of his intended buy quantity.
Also, Contracts creation should no longer allow issuer to create a contract to receive identical item(s) in return for the sales of the same items. Make no sense top create such contracts unless you wish to scam. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
533
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 05:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
I don't really see how this change would prevent the scam. Maybe I just misunderstood, but I think it would still work.
EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
658
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 05:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
the way margin trading works is you buy a few hundred or thousand of something, then go nearby and sell those same items for tripe what you bought it for, then go too another station and set up a buy order.
that buy order usually has the minimum amount set to what you put up for sale at the other station, usually meaning someone wanting to take advantage HAS to buy it from you.
if it was set to 1, someone could take one item, and ruin the buy order which would no longer have the isk.
however, no margin trade scams are easy to avoid. |
MushroomMushroom
Consolidated Sprocket
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 05:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
The proposed change would only ruin a single of the less sophisticated margin trading scams. Namely the situation where the scammer lists item(s) on the market individually, and then sets the buy order in the same station. It would do nothing to prevent a scammer from listing a single item, and then placing the single unit buy order one station away. It would do nothing to prevent a margin trader who incorporates contracts into the scam. I'm sure there are other variations it wouldn't stop either. CCP should not play wack a mole with the rules, causing all types of collateral damage to stop scammers. |
Alfred Lim
Order of the Ebon Hand
The Jagged Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 05:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:the way margin trading works is you buy a few hundred or thousand of something, then go nearby and sell those same items for tripe what you bought it for, then go too another station and set up a buy order.
that buy order usually has the minimum amount set to what you put up for sale at the other station, usually meaning someone wanting to take advantage HAS to buy it from you.
if it was set to 1, someone could take one item, and ruin the buy order which would no longer have the isk.
however, no margin trade scams are easy to avoid.
If the buyer no longer have the isk to fulfill 1 order or 1%, means he/she had no intention of buying at all buy for the sole purpose for scamming. Say you wish to buy 10 units for Orca, if some one wants to sell you 1 unit and if you do not have the isk to cover the 1 unit out of 10 Orca you wish you purchase, your buy order will be cancel automatically and you will lose your cost of putting up the order. However, for a real intended buyer, you will still be able to purchase the 1 order and make preparation for the isk to cover the next order.
Moreover, when in items that costs millions or billion, you will not place large buy order with large minimum quantity. You wouldn't place a buy order for 100 Merlin at a minimum quantity of 100 Merlin would you? Unless you have intention to perform a Margin Scam. When comes to items that costs 100k isk or 1000 isk, there again the buyer is not even able to cover 100k then we know he has no intention of covering the Buy Order he had placed. The theory is that buyer should be able to cover at least 1 unit of 1% of his buy order. If allowing the minimum quantity to go above 1 or 1%, then the scam can still take place.
The idea is not about whether the scam is easy to track or not, the idea is to weed out scam and have only real buyer and seller in the market. |
Alfred Lim
Order of the Ebon Hand
The Jagged Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 05:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
MushroomMushroom wrote:The proposed change would only ruin a single of the less sophisticated margin trading scams. Namely the situation where the scammer lists item(s) on the market individually, and then sets the buy order in the same station. It would do nothing to prevent a scammer from listing a single item, and then placing the single unit buy order one station away. It would do nothing to prevent a margin trader who incorporates contracts into the scam. I'm sure there are other variations it wouldn't stop either. CCP should not play wack a mole with the rules, causing all types of collateral damage to stop scammers.
This proposal will not ruin anything except for scammer.
Basically, the party could create any buy order anywhere it is just that the Minimum Quantity of his buy order to be set to 1 or 1% of his total Buy Order. Meaning, if he wants to buy a total of 1000 units for an item worth 100k. The total buy order is worth 10,000,000 isk, he should have in his wallet to cover 10,000isk worth of purchase. With this amendment, player will still take full advantage of the Margin skill, Margin trading and all other benefits that comes to margin trading if he had no intention to scam.
As for contract, may seem there is some confusion in your part. If you wish to sell a Plex, why would you want to receive a Plex? If you wish to buy a Merlin, why would you want to receive a Merlin back in your contract. The principle of contract is to sell items that are of multiple or ships that had rigs...etc. Having issue a contract that demand a same item in return make absolutely no sense unless you wish to scam. The amendment of of disallowing player to issue a contract that demand the same item in return will not and never affect normal contracts unless again you intention was to scam from the start. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9221
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 06:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alfred Lim wrote:This proposal will not ruin anything except for scammer. It doesn't ruin scammers in the slightest, and removes flexibility for legit traders.
Next time, be aware of the market before you buy and you won't fall for the scam so easily. Your mistakes are not enough reason to remove options for me.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
52
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 06:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Alfred Lim wrote:This proposal will not ruin anything except for scammer. It doesn't ruin scammers in the slightest, and removes flexibility for legit traders. Next time, be aware of the market before you buy and you won't fall for the scam so easily. Your mistakes are not enough reason to remove options for me.
*shrugs* Traders will adapt. Scamers as well. Game will improve. Though I do not get it anyway why you do not have to buy for your whole order in advance.
Would this be really that horrible? (as long as you can keep the order with a quantity of 0 in your wallet to modify it later) |
Sigras
Conglomo
IMPERIAL LEGI0N
182
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 07:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
removing margin trading would seriously cripple every trader's ability to make isk, the idiocy of that suggestion defies explanation.
The problem with requiring a certain amount of isk in addition to the escrow isk in the wallet comes when you have multiple orders open.
At any given time, I have 150 orders open, some buy some sell, and with your change, if at any time, I bought some items which dropped my wallet below one unit of my most expensive buy order it would cancel the whole order even if I would sell something 1 second later that would allow me to buy it again.
With your change, I would have to check all of my orders every minute of every day to be sure that my orders didnt cancel |
Alfred Lim
Order of the Ebon Hand
The Jagged Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 07:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Apparent you do not understand...please read before you reply.
I did not suggest remove of margin trade. What i suggest is that the minimum quantity in Margin Trading is to be limited to 1 or 1% of total buy order to prevent scam. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9225
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 11:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Would this be really that horrible? Making changes that have no effect other than to remove flexibility is always horrible. Making changes because someone is upset they got scammed is doubly so.
Alfred Lim wrote:I did not suggest remove of margin trade. What i suggest is that the minimum quantity in Margin Trading is to be limited to 1 or 1% of total buy order to prevent scam. GǪwhich doesn't prevent scams in the slightest (only you can do that, and the game certainly shouldn't do it for you) and removes options for legitimate traders.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
274
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 11:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Can you give a good reason as to why people should be prevented from scamming using margin trading? |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
399
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 11:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
lol
look, another sucker felt into a margin trading scam.
well done. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9227
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 12:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:lol
look, another sucker felt into a margin trading scam.
well done. And howGǪ 
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
399
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 12:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
haha good find |
Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 12:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Uh this doesn't help you avoid the margin trading scam at all..
Read: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1644080#post1644080 for more info.
Margin trading scam could happen even on buy orders of 1 unit... |
Velicitia
Open Designs
1102
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 14:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Alfred Lim wrote:
If the buyer no longer have the isk to fulfill 1 order or 1%, means he/she had no intention of buying at all buy for the sole purpose for scamming.
Or they misjudged their markets and things they're selling that would have allowed them to cover the "1 unit or 1%" clause in your proposal didn't sell as fast as they had hoped.
Sure, the ability to scam is there ... but the main focus of margin trading is so that I can (for example) make 10 billion work as if it was 40 billion, assuming what I was buying/selling wasn't too volatile (i.e. I sold 10 units of $THING per day, every day, and that covered the buy orders so I didn't run out of money), and I could make the sales fast enough to cover my outstanding debts. |
Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
146
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 17:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Can you give a good reason as to why people should be prevented from scamming using margin trading?
Maybe because aside a few wankers who find it useful it adds nothing to the game. Most who fall for it will be new and when it happens to them they will have that, what the hell just happened look on their face. Now that may be funny and all, but subscriber retention is a bit more important then an obscure mechanic new players don't see coming.
|
Dennis Gregs
The Scope
Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 18:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Honestly? Deal with it. If you fall for a scam, it is your own damn fault. |
Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
146
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 23:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
Dennis Gregs wrote:Honestly? Deal with it. If you fall for a scam, it is your own damn fault.
I think he is, just in he's own way. |
Trados Malthazar
Scarlet Industries
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 01:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
Since CCP does not view the skill as an exploit and will not remove it.
I have a proposition to add a game feature to meet in the middle ground.
We already have the standing feature. Where we can adjust players standings.
What I propose is creating a Commerce Standing.
Where players who regularly buy and sell contracts, can rate the business transaction.
Much like in real life, where people offer reviews on products and businesses.
Citing past transactions as a basis for their opinions.
This will allow people to rate if they were 'satisfied' with their purchase.
Reviewing poor scores on players, will help players know not to trust certain merchants.
Would you get your car fixed at a garage where the cars leave in worse shape then they arrived?
Would you buy food at a restaurant where 9/10 customers got food poisoning?
Would you send your children to a school where only 1 in 1000 graduates can read or write?
etc...
Consumer reviews are a valuable tool in real life. And could be an ideal feature in EVE aswell. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
1253
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 02:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Trados Malthazar wrote:Since CCP does not view the skill as an exploit and will not remove it.
I have a proposition to add a game feature to meet in the middle ground.
We already have the standing feature. Where we can adjust players standings.
What I propose is creating a Commerce Standing.
Where players who regularly buy and sell contracts, can rate the business transaction.
Much like in real life, where people offer reviews on products and businesses.
Citing past transactions as a basis for their opinions.
This will allow people to rate if they were 'satisfied' with their purchase.
Reviewing poor scores on players, will help players know not to trust certain merchants.
Would you get your car fixed at a garage where the cars leave in worse shape then they arrived?
Would you buy food at a restaurant where 9/10 customers got food poisoning?
Would you send your children to a school where only 1 in 1000 graduates can read or write?
etc...
Consumer reviews are a valuable tool in real life. And could be an ideal feature in EVE aswell.
Unfortunately, this would be abused to high heaven and would very shortly become useless. |
Tidurious
ResLife Can Suck It
222
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 09:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Does no one realize that you can pull off a successful margin trading scam without using the minimum quantity?
... shakes head in disappointment... |
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