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Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:41:00 -
[1]
Dramiels are completely imbalanced in multiple roles, and as a frigate pilot a few years now its sad to see them destroy the otherwise balanced frigate class (now after rocket changes. thx ccp). I'll quote my post from SHC where we discussed this. These are well thought out changes as from someone who both fly and fight dramiels:
needed changes:
- 10-20% speed nerf, get it below 800m/s when webbed and using faction ab
- grid nerf so fitting t2 extender, largest guns with only a micro core is impossible (150s are ok)
- remove one drone (bandwidth)
- remove falloff bonus. its too powerful to have both a tracking and falloff bonus and combined with its drones it means you can hardly beat it even if you could somehow kite it (see hookbills). make it fit arties if it wants to kite rail/rocket boats.
- cut lock range to that of a taranis. they shouldnt be fleet tacklers
I was teaching my pvp class yesterday and kept thinking how well balanced most of the frigate bracket is now EXCEPT for dramiels which are so stupidly op i dont even know what ccp was thinking.
the other big problem with drams is the price in combination with how good they are. 70 mil means the only fights you will get with one is ***gotry (ab+shield boost faction fits) that wont engage anything threatening (eg pretty much nothing) and people will have backup to bail them out every time. There are no casual duels with drams. but because they absolutely have no disadvantage (good dps, best speed, good EHP, good agility, good range, good tracking) people feel forced to fly them and this has ruined frigate pvp and created Dramiels Online.
Some have suggested removing a midslot which I disagree with because it will make it too generic and close to useless for soloing
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 14:53:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Podcat on 25/02/2011 14:55:53
 Originally by: TimMc
Edited by: TimMc on 25/02/2011 14:49:54
What would the falloff bonus be replaced by?
Supporting anyway.
does it need another bonus? I dont think so. if you wanted to do it you could nerf the speed then give it 5% speed per level of minmatar frig until it was the same (with the suggested 20% speed reduction). You could also give it an optimal bonus instead to boost its small niche role as a kiting artillery ship (optimal bonus wont change much for AC fit). Its just that falloff + tracking is too good combined and leaves no weakness to exploit.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 15:58:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Bagehi
I would rather have the speed of the rest of the frigates increased to be closer to that of the dram.
I'm not sure thats necessary, but I dont have strong opinions about it. however you would still need to change the other stats I suggested to balance things. speed is just one of the things unbalancing the dramiel.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:42:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kepakh
Did you try to fit a plate and web on a dramiel...?
How about Slicer?
Make all frigs go inty speeds with AF DPS+EHP or none. Exceptions like Slicer and Dramiel and speed difference between AF and faction crap are silly.
not quite sure what you mean. I guess its just a troll or do you mean that you want all ships to be the same or are you saying that slicers are too fast (they are not they are slower than crusaders)?
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 21:33:00 -
[5]
you could boost all other frigs but then you are looking at changing 20+ ships instead of one. Pretty much all other frigates are balanced with each other right now.
and yes dramiels die vs other frigates, but it requires the dram pilot to be **** or the other ship to be a complete bait fit that cant do anything but beat drams. Daredevils can sort of do it reliably, but they are very limited for all other forms of combat so it makes up for them being very strong for this particular scenario. they also cost a lot more than a dram to fit properly and die very easy to anything big.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.26 09:28:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Podcat on 26/02/2011 09:31:28
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
The entire T1 frigate range is overshadowed by the Rifter, Electronic Warfare frigs are junk, assault frigs are junk (minmatar excepted) and most of the faction frigs are hopeless. Rocket platforms still suck, hybrid platforms still suck, light missile platforms still suck.
not true at all. for t1 frigs merlin, incursus, tristan are all ok. rifter might be more flexible but its essentially a situation where each of those will have a fair fight when flown right.
several of the assault frigs are as good as jaguars. ishkurs for example. rocket vengeance and hawk are pretty strong now etc. but the AF class is a bit broken as well due to no mwd sig reduction and the fact that just plain ab doesnt really cut it outside lowsec.
ewar frigs are junk, but Raimo and I were more referring to actual brawling pvp frigs in 1v1 situations. I wouldnt mind boosting e-war frigs quite a bit (mainly on EHP and lock range, but lets not derail).
rockets are pretty good now and a competitive weapon system, railguns are still fantastic in frig duels, but ok, light missiles are pretty limited, but its mainly due to scrams and the fact that crows dont do 10km/s anymore. you can still hunt ab frigs (or mwd frigs if you are really good) and kill them in your crow if you want. also some faction frigs might not be epically good (worm and cruor are the ones worst off). rest I dont mind at all.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.26 10:58:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Podcat on 26/02/2011 11:01:28
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Raimo
Rail tristan
/facepalm
rail tristans are strong. feel free to fit up a standard rifter and fight me and I'll prove you wrong. otherwise stop trolling and derailing this thread from discussing my dramiel changes
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 16:16:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tordin Varglund
nERF DRAM BOOST BURST
speaking of which, the whole tier system for frigs and BC/BS etc should go and ships rebalanced and we would suddenly get 3 times the number of useful ships to play with instead of adding new ones. totally different issue tho and a lot of effort for CCP to pull off.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 23:41:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Podcat on 27/02/2011 23:44:52
Edited by: Podcat on 27/02/2011 23:42:53
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
OP is kind of contradictory on speed. The suggested 20% speed nerf would still leave it as the fastest ship in the game, it just wouldn't be doing 1 km/s while webbed (EFT warrior time: current speed with a heated gistii B AB under a 60% web: 1073 m/s; with a 20% nerf, that falls to 858 m/s. A firetail with the same heated AB under the same web does 768 m/s).
There's plenty of room to cut its speed down to a more reasonable value without knocking it off its perch.
well, that sounds pretty much exactly like the values I wanted? the firetail is also worse on all other stats. and it sounds more like it gets close to the firetail when you compare webbed speeds. its still 6290 m/s vs 5400 using mwds which is a hefty difference (basic cy-1, zor implants and no speed mods on the ships). before nerfing speed that dram did 7860m/s.
by knocking the dram below 1k/s ab it means other ab+web only ships can control range on a dram without a web of its own like it is now. one of the reasons this change is needed. you shouldnt have to use dual webs and ab to range control another ships "standard" fit of the same class.
also the dram has drones and will have more dps as well so it will still be the best general frig pretty much, just not untouchable
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved - Vote prom4csm |
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