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Fu Thing	Posted - 2011.02.26 17:59:00 - [1] Hulkageddon 3 killed 1719 exhumers, 717 barges, 288 bill in damage. So far Hulkageddon 4 has killed 771 exhumers, 580 barges, 188 bill in damage. Less than two days to go. Guess maybe the thrill factor is a little lower than last time? Can only hope this event will die eventually anyway.
Thurasi Agalder	Posted - 2011.02.26 18:13:00 - [2] Originally by: Fu Thing Hulkageddon 3 killed 1719 exhumers, 717 barges, 288 bill in damage. So far Hulkageddon 4 has killed 771 exhumers, 580 barges, 188 bill in damage. Less than two days to go. Guess maybe the thrill factor is a little lower than last time? Can only hope this event will die eventually anyway. Or people were smart and left their Hulks in the hangers.
Dian'h Might Minmatar Cash and Cargo Liberators Incorporated	Posted - 2011.02.26 19:11:00 - [3] Edited by: Dian''h Might on 26/02/2011 19:12:06 1) The only way to submit kills is by giving the board your api and waiting. Quite a few people who were unwilling to give out their api have probably gotten the final blow in a lot of ganks, so the kill isn't counted on the board. 2) Last hulkageddon was during the summer, so more people less busy with school and stuff 3) More miners are starting to pay attention and/or tank their hulks. - - - Dian'h Might - C&Ps resident "internet kleptomaniac"
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.02.26 19:29:00 - [4] it'd be more accurate to compare this edition to the last winter edition (number 2) rather than the summer edition, where everyone is off work. side note, yes there will be a summer edition again this year as well.
Nebuch ad Netzar	Posted - 2011.02.26 22:27:00 - [5] Originally by: Helicity Boson it'd be more accurate to compare this edition to the last winter edition (number 2) rather than the summer edition, where everyone is off work. side note, yes there will be a summer edition again this year as well. What? Didn't sell enough hulk BPC's this time? You must be making a fortune on those...
Jones Bones Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.26 22:53:00 - [6] 1. Killboard is API only. 2. Insurance changes made using larger class vessels significantly more expensive. 3. Many of the informed player base took note after the massacre that was HG3. 4. I like pudding.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.02.26 23:25:00 - [7] Originally by: Nebuch ad Netzar What? Didn't sell enough hulk BPC's this time? You must be making a fortune on those... I know I made a fortune in the few weeks leading up to it.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.27 04:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Nebuch ad Netzar What? Didn't sell enough hulk BPC's this time? You must be making a fortune on those... I know I made a fortune in the few weeks leading up to it. "fortune" is a relative term.
fgft Athonille	Posted - 2011.02.27 05:00:00 - [9] Originally by: Dian'h Might 1) The only way to submit kills is by giving the board your api helicity killed the event with this and now people have proven it
Echo Mae Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.02.27 06:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Helicity Boson it'd be more accurate to compare this edition to the last winter edition (number 2) rather than the summer edition, where everyone is off work. side note, yes there will be a summer edition again this year as well. I look forward to this. It is always enjoyable watching hulks implode.
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.02.27 07:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Echo Mae Originally by: Helicity Boson it'd be more accurate to compare this edition to the last winter edition (number 2) rather than the summer edition, where everyone is off work. side note, yes there will be a summer edition again this year as well. I look forward to this. It is always enjoyable watching hulks implode. Me too! I really hope Zedrik and I can implement more fancy automated stuff like achievements and profile pages for it, which will just make everything even more fun and easy :D That said I'm very very pleased with the event thusfar, damage done is above my own estimations for the winter edition and this time I have the comfort of knowing that: a) All kills are legit b) The kills shown are less than the actual number of people asploded The API deal has been an experiment, and it's been succesful, we will be keeping this method. Hopefully CCP will implement the kill-only API key before summer so more people are willing to share it. I can understand some people would not trust me with a full API key, even though I have nada interest in anything but the kills; this is eve afterall. Lots of folks seemed to be having a grand old time, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback through various channels, and it seems the shift in perception from "oh god you're a meanie" to "hey wow, you're running a fun event and everyone that is smart wins" is well underway. Maybe we will yet educate the masses! That said it's not over yet! I'm watching with rapt attention to see if theHermit or leroxee of the bastards will catch up to Burseg Sardaukar they were far behind him but are now catching up! This is gonna be a neck and neck race to the finish line! When things are done, zedrik will be working his database magic to determine the winners (no more manual counting for me yay!) And then I will finally be able to see my own damned assets again when I've handed out the delicious prizes! And after that I'm going to have to sit down and begin designing HAG5 and all the features I want for it. A terrorist's work is never done it seems.
Jones Bones Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.27 16:04:00 - [12] Originally by: fgft Athonille Originally by: Dian'h Might 1) The only way to submit kills is by giving the board your api helicity killed the event with this and now people have proven it Trust me, that API fed board does not even begin to tally the true number of victims for HG4.
Anne Civre	Posted - 2011.02.28 06:21:00 - [13] Originally by: Jones Bones Trust me HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Whew... I needed that :)
Ramma Lamma DingDong	Posted - 2011.02.28 07:04:00 - [14] Edited by: Ramma Lamma DingDong on 28/02/2011 07:04:15 Why stop at summer? Why not one for every season? Aww Hell let's just have one for ten days out of every month. Not like it has much of an impact on anything anyway.
CaptainSyler Minmatar Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.28 10:10:00 - [15] sowhat i mined the hole week didnt see any hulkageddon
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.02.28 13:31:00 - [16] Originally by: Helicity Boson Hopefully CCP will implement the kill-only API key before summer so more people are willing to share it. I can understand some people would not trust me with a full API key, even though I have nada interest in anything but the kills; this is eve afterall. That goes for all killboards, so that API kill would/should be highly sought after. Not sure why CCP hasn't made different 'classes' of the API and just stick to the limited (which is quite limited) and the full (which is overly full). -
Toovhon	Posted - 2011.02.28 14:40:00 - [17] Or perhaps the sheer intense lameness of targeting T1 industrials bored people. Just a thought... -- Frog blast the vent core!
Fu Thing	Posted - 2011.02.28 17:41:00 - [18] Don't know what the reasons are, maybe it is the API key thing, but the numbers are seriously down even with all the new categories of ships that were added to the event. It's summer now in half the world so I'm not buying that as a reason. I mined ice most of the last weekend and nobody even tried to gank me. Two of these events a year is overkill, especially if the bloodbath turns out to be a blood sprinkle. Good luck though. This event must be a monster to put together. I can only admire the energy of the creators.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.28 18:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Ramma Lamma DingDong Edited by: Ramma Lamma DingDong on 28/02/2011 07:04:15 Why stop at summer? Why not one for every season? Aww Hell let's just have one for ten days out of every month. Not like it has much of an impact on anything anyway. I said this in another thread, but they should save up the prizes and find essentially the peak month that has the most ppl playing at one time (IE when a expansion drops) or just a regular peak month, and do a hulkageddon month. The miners couldnt realisticly save up enough minerals to last the entire month, and it would make an actual impact. It would be better if somehow, you were able (impossible I know) to keep it secret, that way you catch ppl by surprise and dont just put their hulks in station. Helicity, Id like to see the losses posted too. Im curious to see how many ships are sacrificed to get the kills lo
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.28 18:25:00 - [20] Honestly I think I know why (rules aside) why they dont stop this from happening. Theyve BEEN looking for an ISK sink to pour the numerous isk faucets in this game into, and this actually is one. Moreso I think for the attackers than the defenders. The attackers are definately going to lose their ship, whereas the defenders have a chance to lose theirs. But in both ways, people are going to be replacing the ships/mods/etc so they will be spending money, and sinking isks. ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Grumpymunky	Posted - 2011.03.01 01:41:00 - [21] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Honestly I think I know why (rules aside) why they dont stop this from happening. Theyve BEEN looking for an ISK sink to pour the numerous isk faucets in this game into, and this actually is one. No. It isn't.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.01 01:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Grumpymunky Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Honestly I think I know why (rules aside) why they dont stop this from happening. Theyve BEEN looking for an ISK sink to pour the numerous isk faucets in this game into, and this actually is one. No. It isn't. really.... explain that ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Grumpymunky	Posted - 2011.03.01 01:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Originally by: Grumpymunky Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Honestly I think I know why (rules aside) why they dont stop this from happening. Theyve BEEN looking for an ISK sink to pour the numerous isk faucets in this game into, and this actually is one. No. It isn't. really.... explain that First, confirm something for me... Did you just suggest that Hulkageddon removes Isk from the game?
Shieko Chan	Posted - 2011.03.01 03:14:00 - [24] Edited by: Shieko Chan on 01/03/2011 03:14:13 I'm not sure how he described it.. but all activities do have some sort of isk sink.. In the case of hulkageddon the assets being destroyed can not be insured for full replacement value. Having to replace old assets instead of purchasing something new is the isk sink.
Vak Keelin	Posted - 2011.03.01 04:09:00 - [25] No, it isn't an ISK sink. It is a mineral sink. However as minerals are mined from an unlimited source this does little more than stimulate the economy. The problem is that the insurance payouts create ISK and pour it into the game. There is now more ISK in the game than there was before the event took place. That said, I support Hulkageddon, I just don't think insurance should pay for it.
Jones Bones Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.03.01 04:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Fu Thing It's summer now in half the world so I'm not buying that as a reason. No one important lives south of the equator. Try again.
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.03.01 05:05:00 - [27] Edited by: Mutnin on 01/03/2011 05:07:03 Originally by: Vak Keelin No, it isn't an ISK sink. It is a mineral sink. However as minerals are mined from an unlimited source this does little more than stimulate the economy. The problem is that the insurance payouts create ISK and pour it into the game. There is now more ISK in the game than there was before the event took place. That said, I support Hulkageddon, I just don't think insurance should pay for it. Please explain how you can come to the conclusion that there is now more ISK in game. I think you are just whining and have no real clue what you are talking about. 1) Insurance does not pay out what it used to on a BS/BC or any other T1 ship. This means you can no longer break even on a ship loss even T1 fitted. This equal lost ISK 2) Hulks are T2 hulls that are somewhere over 100mil each.. I've never insured a Hulk but I'd bet they don't even get 20 mil if it goes boom. Then add to this most people don't even bother with insurance on T2 ships. This equals less ISK in game. 3) now of course there are mod drops & salvage to be had from the ship wrecks, but mods are always lost when a ship dies so some ISK is lost. What ever is looted/salvaged is only a minor fraction of the replacement value of the fitted ships, and is more than likely scooped by some passer by. This equals ISK lost from game and some ISK redistributed into the economy. (not even mentioning rig cost as most hulks are rigged)
Vak Keelin	Posted - 2011.03.01 06:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Mutnin Edited by: Mutnin on 01/03/2011 05:07:03 Originally by: Vak Keelin No, it isn't an ISK sink. It is a mineral sink. However as minerals are mined from an unlimited source this does little more than stimulate the economy. The problem is that the insurance payouts create ISK and pour it into the game. There is now more ISK in the game than there was before the event took place. That said, I support Hulkageddon, I just don't think insurance should pay for it. Please explain how you can come to the conclusion that there is now more ISK in game. I think you are just whining and have no real clue what you are talking about. 1) Insurance does not pay out what it used to on a BS/BC or any other T1 ship. This means you can no longer break even on a ship loss even T1 fitted. This equal lost ISK 2) Hulks are T2 hulls that are somewhere over 100mil each.. I've never insured a Hulk but I'd bet they don't even get 20 mil if it goes boom. Then add to this most people don't even bother with insurance on T2 ships. This equals less ISK in game. 3) now of course there are mod drops & salvage to be had from the ship wrecks, but mods are always lost when a ship dies so some ISK is lost. What ever is looted/salvaged is only a minor fraction of the replacement value of the fitted ships, and is more than likely scooped by some passer by. This equals ISK lost from game and some ISK redistributed into the economy. (not even mentioning rig cost as most hulks are rigged) It is you who doesnÆt know what you are talking about. When a ship is built, minerals that were mined were converted into a ship. That ship is then sold for EXISTING ISK to another player. When it is destroyed the owner has lost his investment but the ISK remains in the game in the hand of the person who he bought it from. The same holds true for any modules or rigs on the ship. On the other hand, when a ship is destroyed, insurance ISK is created in excess of what was paid to insure it in the first place. This ISK comes out of thin air from a NPC source; hence it is an ISK faucet. For you to be Correct the act of buying a ship would have to create ISK. It does not. ISK only changes hands. Now, I hope that was an explanation you are able to comprehend.
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.03.01 14:02:00 - [29] Edited by: Mutnin on 01/03/2011 14:03:50 Originally by: Vak Keelin It is you who doesnÆt know what you are talking about. When a ship is built, minerals that were mined were converted into a ship. That ship is then sold for EXISTING ISK to another player. When it is destroyed the owner has lost his investment but the ISK remains in the game in the hand of the person who he bought it from. The same holds true for any modules or rigs on the ship. On the other hand, when a ship is destroyed, insurance ISK is created in excess of what was paid to insure it in the first place. This ISK comes out of thin air from a NPC source; hence it is an ISK faucet. For you to be Correct the act of buying a ship would have to create ISK. It does not. ISK only changes hands. Now, I hope that was an explanation you are able to comprehend. Our insurance in game works pretty close to real world insurance. You pay out a fee to secure a percentage of your loss. You lose the ISK from the ship and are paid back a percentage of that lost ISK. Simple as that, you however don't get back more than what your ship was worth and it generally doesn't cover the cost of rigs which are completely lost and can not be recovered, as well as the percentage of mod loss that isn't dropped. Simple math, will show you that you are wrong, but you seem mad bro, so I guess basic math doesn't work well in your universe.
Grumpymunky	Posted - 2011.03.01 14:14:00 - [30] You don't seem to know what an ISK sink is. Hint: No one cares about your own personal loss.
Denevive Hadah Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.01 17:35:00 - [31] Originally by: Grumpymunky You don't seem to know what an ISK sink is. Hint: No one cares about your own personal loss. isk sink means when its removed from the game. I.E. like the cost to set up an Alliance. if you pay 12mil to get a platinum insurance of 50 mil. and then your ship goes boom. 38mil has now been introduced into the system that did not exist previously. Mission running, bounties, and all those types of activities create isk. If left unchecked economy would spiral out of control due to inflation. Hence taxes and whatever. The ship losses made it so the people involved lost the isk in their pockets. But it was still kept in the game. It did stimulate the player based economy to mine and build more to meet up with new demands, which is fine.
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.03.01 23:40:00 - [32] Edited by: Mutnin on 01/03/2011 23:42:30 Originally by: Grumpymunky You don't seem to know what an ISK sink is. Hint: No one cares about your own personal loss. I guess I will have to spell it out for you.. ISK lost from personal wallet that does not go to anyone else is ISK "lost" from the game. This is an ISK sink as the ISK is no longer with-in the economy. Platinum Insurance on a Hulk cost $11,715,694.80 at this moment The payout on that insurance is $39,052,316.00 That leaves $27,336,621.20 (after insurance cost) in your wallet if you insure a Hulk and it gets blown up. The current Jita price of a Hulk is 171 million ISK. That means Just on the ship hull alone $143,663,378.80 is no longer in the game at "todays" current prices for every Hulk that was exploded. That negative 143 million did not go into some other guys wallet, its gone (bye,bye) went down the drain into you guessed it.. A ISK sink. It does not matter if 27 million was generated by NPC insurance, because over all there was a net "loss" of ISK from the eve economy. This doesn't even get into the rigs or mods that are not dropped when the ship goes boom. That sir is most certainly a player driven ISK sink.
Sporked	Posted - 2011.03.02 00:19:00 - [33] Edited by: Sporked on 02/03/2011 00:25:37 Originally by: Mutnin Edited by: Mutnin on 01/03/2011 23:51:01 Originally by: Grumpymunky You don't seem to know what an ISK sink is. Hint: No one cares about your own personal loss. ISK lost from personal wallet that does not go to anyone else is ISK "lost" from the game. This is an ISK sink as the ISK is no longer with-in the economy. Platinum Insurance on a Hulk cost $11,715,694.80 at this moment The payout on that insurance is $39,052,316.00 That leaves $27,336,621.20 (after insurance cost) in your wallet if you insure a Hulk and it gets blown up. The current Jita price of a Hulk is 171 million ISK. That means Just on the ship hull alone $143,663,378.80 is no longer in the game at "todays" current prices for every Hulk that was exploded. That negative 143 million did not go into some other guys wallet, its gone (bye,bye) went down the drain into you guessed it.. A ISK sink. It does not matter if 27 million was generated by NPC insurance, because over all there was a net "loss" of ISK from the eve economy. This doesn't even get into the rigs or mods that are not dropped when the ship goes boom. That sir is most certainly a player driven ISK sink. ISK no remove from game! No is ISK sink! Your example is that of a personal loss to your own wallet, the missing amount you are looking for is sat in the wallet of the Hulk seller. Example using nice round example prices so your limited intelligence can follow: Hulk = 100m Insurance fee = 10m Payout = 30m 100m goes to another player so ISK is not lost, it just changes hands. 10m is now paid to NPC insurance corp, 10m leaves the game forever. Hulk is then violenced and explodes, generating 30m from nowhere. This 30m is a greater value than the 10m that disappeared therefore 30-10=20, 20m ISK was ADDED to the EVE economy which would make it an ISK faucet not a sink. Now if the insurance expired on the Hulk without incident, then yes it would be an ISK sink of 10m. However, every time a payout of value greater than that of the initial insurance cost occurs then the vanished ISK is invalidated as money has been created from nowhere, thus it is a faucet not a sink. Comprende?
Awesome Possum Original Sin. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS	Posted - 2011.03.02 00:28:00 - [34] Originally by: Fu Thing It's summer now in half the world so I'm not buying that as a reason nobody cares about that half of the world, unless you're going to brazil for easy dark skinned lady(boys). ♥
Grumpymunky	Posted - 2011.03.02 01:25:00 - [35] Originally by: Mutnin That negative 143 million did not go into some other guys wallet Actually, it did. You don't seriously believe that hulk was bought from an NPC do you?
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.02 01:41:00 - [36] Originally by: Sporked ISK no remove from game! No is ISK sink! Your example is that of a personal loss to your own wallet, the missing amount you are looking for is sat in the wallet of the Hulk seller. Example using nice round example prices so your limited intelligence can follow: Hulk = 100m Insurance fee = 10m Payout = 30m I want to ask if you're serious.. or if you are pretending to be a caveman. but assuming you are serious.. The loss comes where the player has to cough up more money to replace the ship than he was reimbursed for the loss.. this is money that he either doesn't have or money that he has to allocate from other projects.. yes. it's an isk sink.. I'm sure after you get into high school you'll learn some math and logic skills so you can figure this out.
Grumpymunky	Posted - 2011.03.02 01:58:00 - [37] Originally by: Barbara Nichole The loss comes where the player has to cough up more money to replace the ship than he was reimbursed for the loss.. this is money that he either doesn't have or money that he has to allocate from other projects.. yes. it's an isk sink.. Someone else confusing personal loss with an isk sink. ISK removed from EVE's overall economy: isk sink ISK transferred from one player to another: NOT an isk sink For instance, if you were to transfer all of your isk to me (and for example's sake, I suggest you do this immediately) you might feel the loss in your own wallet, but isk has neither been created nor destroyed. This is not an isk sink, nor is any other transaction between players, aside from the ~1% transaction taxes and broker fees.
Vak Keelin	Posted - 2011.03.02 02:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Mutnin Edited by: Mutnin on 01/03/2011 23:51:01 Platinum Insurance on a Hulk cost $11,715,694.80 at this moment The payout on that insurance is $39,052,316.00 That leaves $27,336,621.20 (after insurance cost) in your wallet if you insure a Hulk and it gets blown up. The current Jita price of a Hulk is 171 million ISK. That means Just on the ship hull alone $143,663,378.80 is no longer in the game at "todays" current prices for every Hulk that was exploded. That negative 143 million did not go into some other guys wallet, its gone (bye,bye) went down the drain into you guessed it.. A ISK sink. It does not matter if 27 million was generated by NPC insurance, because over all there was a net "loss" of ISK from the eve economy. This doesn't even get into the rigs or mods that are not dropped when the ship goes boom. That sir is most certainly a player driven ISK sink. Incorrect. Money transferred from one player by the sale of a product or service does not create an ISK sink because the ISK did not leave the game. It only changed hands from one player to another. ISK paid in taxes or to insurance or to any other NPC entity is a sink because that ISK does leave the game. See the difference. Therefore losing a ship that was built with regenerating minerals by a player does not cause a sink due to the fact that the seller now has the cash in his wallet. What did happen is that all of the insurance payment sinks to NPCÆs were wiped away by larger insurance payouts from the same NPC entities, creating more ISK then originally existed. Therefore there is now more ISK in the economy of eve due to hulkaggeddon then there was before it began. By your own numbers, over 27 million ISK is generated into the overall economy with the destruction of every insured hulk not even counting that which is generated by the gankers themselves. It really isnÆt that difficult to understand.
Sporked	Posted - 2011.03.02 02:34:00 - [39] Originally by: Barbara Nichole Originally by: Sporked ISK no remove from game! No is ISK sink! Your example is that of a personal loss to your own wallet, the missing amount you are looking for is sat in the wallet of the Hulk seller. Example using nice round example prices so your limited intelligence can follow: Hulk = 100m Insurance fee = 10m Payout = 30m I want to ask if you're serious.. or if you are pretending to be a caveman. but assuming you are serious.. The loss comes where the player has to cough up more money to replace the ship than he was reimbursed for the loss.. this is money that he either doesn't have or money that he has to allocate from other projects.. yes. it's an isk sink.. I'm sure after you get into high school you'll learn some math and logic skills so you can figure this out. I refer you to your own comment. I also suggest you look up the definitions of both ISK sink and ISK faucet, re-read your post then realise what an utter tit you just made of yourself. Just for future reference - ISK sink ≠ money leaving your wallet, an ISK sink is money being artificially removed from the game into a bottomless void. An ISK faucet is money being injected into the economy via said bottomless void. Basically, any time you fulfill an NPC buy order, receive an insurance payout, or any other NPC initiated transaction that is a credit to your wallet (including mission rewards and CONCORD bounties, not to be confused with player generated bounties) that is an ISK faucet as money has been created where none existed before. Every time you pay a bill, are fined for carrying contraband, insure your ships or any other transaction that involves a debit from your wallet to an NPC you utilising an ISK sink as the money is being removed from player circulation. Anything that does not match either of those definitions is not, suprise suprise, an ISK sink or faucet.
D'Kelle	Posted - 2011.03.02 06:32:00 - [40] Originally by: Fu Thing Don't know what the reasons are, maybe it is the API key thing, but the numbers are seriously down even with all the new categories of ships that were added to the event. It's summer now in half the world so I'm not buying that as a reason. I mined ice most of the last weekend and nobody even tried to gank me. Two of these events a year is overkill, especially if the bloodbath turns out to be a blood sprinkle. Good luck though. This event must be a monster to put together. I can only admire the energy of the creators. Like a lot of thigs in EVE' folks get bored after a while with the same old thing, I supose there will always be a few die hards or new folks joining the event, but if there is not enough actual upgrade content i.e. challenge within the event it becomes "samey" just like missions did, for me it has become no more effort or fun than the concept of going out & doing a level one mission in BS; & not being a DEV Helicity can't add actual content or greater depth of challenge, shame realy; Sorry m8 but I wont be bothering sorting an alt to run with it next time; it was good though the first time or two around, shame really it just felt a bit dull this time, maybe the greater the target scope the less effort or whatever, not realy sure. If you can improve it I'll consider trying it again but if not, nah!
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.03.02 13:16:00 - [41] Edited by: Mutnin on 02/03/2011 13:21:25 Originally by: Vak Keelin Incorrect. Money transferred from one player by the sale of a product or service does not create an ISK sink because the ISK did not leave the game. It only changed hands from one player to another. ISK paid in taxes or to insurance or to any other NPC entity is a sink because that ISK does leave the game. See the difference. Therefore losing a ship that was built with regenerating minerals by a player does not cause a sink due to the fact that the seller now has the cash in his wallet. What did happen is that all of the insurance payment sinks to NPCÆs were wiped away by larger insurance payouts from the same NPC entities, creating more ISK then originally existed. Therefore there is now more ISK in the economy of eve due to hulkaggeddon then there was before it began. By your own numbers, over 27 million ISK is generated into the overall economy with the destruction of every insured hulk not even counting that which is generated by the gankers themselves. It really isnÆt that difficult to understand. I understand where you are coming from as you are looking at just the actual ISK that is floating around. The point I was getting at, is I look at a ship as having a ISK value much like a commodity. Meaning that ship that was blown up still had a ISK value that is no longer in the game. Yes when the hulk was originally created & sold the ISK was transferred along the way to various people for the ship and it's components. This of course is producing ISK out of thin air so to speak, but in the end that ISK ends up in various peoples wallets and a new ship which has ISK value is created. Once that ship is lost that value of the ship/mod rig what ever is also lost. You are looking at the strictest form of a ISK sink, but I'm looking at the entire chain. ISK is lost from the eve economy in the form of a commodity that held a value in ISK. It does not matter if someone was paid for that commodity at some point, because the value of it is lost and has to be recreated to replace it. Like it or not all ISK in EVE is in someone's wallet, so claiming a individuals ISK lost from their personal wallet is not a sink is not correct. If something is destroyed that holds a ISK value, that is lost ISK regardless if ISK had been transferred for the object in the past as the object still held a ISK value that is lost.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition Crooked Cross	Posted - 2011.03.02 13:19:00 - [42] I think the confusion in terms is that the item values at 155M isk or so has been removed from the economy even though the isk itself changed hands. So, ... Player A through spending isk or time builds a Hulk. Player B has 200M isk we'll say. Player B buys Hulk from Player A and insures it. Player A has 155M Isk (minus taxes/fees) Player B has 35M isk and a 155M Hulk. (Equipping not being counted at this time) Player B has Hulk destroyed, collects 30M insurance. Player A has 155M (again, minus taxes/fees) Player B has 65M and tears. End result... the isk total increased to 220M (20M increase), however a 155M item was removed from the ecomony. The combined values of the isk + items between the two players has gone down by 65M. Technically both sides are right, it's merely a matter of semantics. Do you mean isk as in "only isk" or isk as in the combined values of isk + items?
Fah Qu	Posted - 2011.03.02 15:11:00 - [43] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 02/03/2011 13:27:13 I think the confusion in terms is that the item values at 155M isk or so has been removed from the economy even though the isk itself changed hands. So, ... Player A through spending isk or time builds a Hulk, values at 155M. Player B has 165M isk we'll say. Total isk + assets 320M. Player B buys Hulk from Player A and insures it. Player A has 155M Isk (minus taxes/fees) Player B has 0 isk and a 155M Hulk insured for 10M (165M investment). (Equipping not being counted at this time) Total isk + assets still 320M. Player B has Hulk destroyed, collects 30M insurance. Player A has 155M (again, minus taxes/fees) Player B has 30M and tears. Total isk + assets 185M. End result... the isk total increased to 185M (20M increase), however a 155M item was removed from the ecomony. The combined values of the isk + items between the two players has gone down by 135M. Technically both sides are right, it's merely a matter of semantics. Do you mean isk as in "only isk" or isk as in the combined values of isk + items? Edit... numbers were borked. And that would be correct if the ore was only a limited supply and nonrenewable, the problem is that it's introduced to the game like bounties from rats, it's a faucet on it's own. And in that case the hulk has no real value other than the time it took to make it, not real isk
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.03.02 19:27:00 - [44] Originally by: Fah Qu And that would be correct if the ore was only a limited supply and nonrenewable, the problem is that it's introduced to the game like bounties from rats, it's a faucet on it's own. And in that case the hulk has no real value other than the time it took to make it, not real isk Time has to be of some value or everything in EVE would be free... If you get right down to it, everything in this game that is created comes from nothing but time spent to create it or get the stuff to create it. Meaning time = ISK.
Khory Thunderstar	Posted - 2011.03.02 20:16:00 - [45] Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Fu Thing It's summer now in half the world so I'm not buying that as a reason nobody cares about that half of the world, unless you're going to brazil for easy dark skinned lady(boys). Or you live in this hellhole
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.03 06:45:00 - [46] Originally by: Grumpymunky ISK removed from EVE's overall economy: isk sink ISK transferred from one player to another: NOT an isk sink with all due respect... you're wrong.. the money removed from the player in this case is money removed from the game.
Vak Keelin	Posted - 2011.03.03 07:07:00 - [47] Originally by: Barbara Nichole Originally by: Grumpymunky ISK removed from EVE's overall economy: isk sink ISK transferred from one player to another: NOT an isk sink with all due respect... you're wrong.. the money removed from the player in this case is money removed from the game. I wasn't going to pursue this farther but I have to ask how so? If I were to buy a hulk from you and self destruct as soon as I undock don't you still have the 150mil +/- I gave you for it? The only thing that is actually taken out of the game are the minerals used to build it and those minerals regenerate so fast that not all of it ever gets mined. Does the transaction stimulate the economy? yes. does it cause ISK to leave the game? Id have to have that explained.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.03.07 10:12:00 - [48] ITT; successful trolls are successful, and isk sinks is monkey business -
Grumpymunky	Posted - 2011.03.07 14:58:00 - [49] Originally by: Misanth monkey business

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