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Omaut Nihilo
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Posted - 2011.02.28 17:10:00 -
[1]
It seems to me that any frigate with an AB, Scram, and Web will be able to dictate range against the standard dual-prop Dramiel (MWD, AB, MSE, Scram). This Dramiel fit must go into scram range which seems quite dangerous to me, considering the popularity of AB, Scram, Web fits.
Am I totally lost, or is there some truth to this? If so, how ARE you supposed to fly the dual-prop Dramiel? |
Dead Bait
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Posted - 2011.02.28 17:27:00 -
[2]
They fly so freaking fast with just AB, that even when webbed they can outrun most things.
But yes it is a good counter, also bait cruisers web x2-3 , scram will drop em.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.02.28 17:51:00 -
[3]
If three mids were all it takes then there would be no problems, but you need a twin web to even dent the bloody things speed .. alternately you need extreme tracking.
On top of that you need enough of a tank to survive longer that it does which is harder than it sounds as every EHP you add in the form of plates (mids already gone remember) reduce whatever speed advantage the web might yield.
It is one of the reasons why the five midslot Hookbill has proven to be very effective against them as it has slots for EHP and twin web without sacrificing speed.
Look at the numbers, do not underestimate the speeds involved:
MWD Kestrel w. 200 plate = 2.2k/s
Gistii AB Dramiel = 2k/s
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Merdaneth
Amarr
Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2011.02.28 17:55:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Merdaneth on 28/02/2011 17:55:52
 Originally by: Omaut Nihilo
It seems to me that any frigate with an AB, Scram, and Web will be able to dictate range against the standard dual-prop Dramiel (MWD, AB, MSE, Scram). This Dramiel fit must go into scram range which seems quite dangerous to me, considering the popularity of AB, Scram, Web fits.
Am I totally lost, or is there some truth to this? If so, how ARE you supposed to fly the dual-prop Dramiel?
Ys, you are a bit lost. Sure any three midslot fast frig can dictate range against a Dramiel, but what would they gain? Nearly all frigs that *can* dictate the range will have inferior dps/EHP ratio and tracking to the Dramiel, so they will just die.
Additionally, there is always the overheat option.
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.28 18:51:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 28/02/2011 18:55:29
Originally by: Merdaneth
Ys, you are a bit lost. Sure any three midslot fast frig can dictate range against a Dramiel, but what would they gain? Nearly all frigs that *can* dictate the range will have inferior dps/EHP ratio and tracking to the Dramiel, so they will just die.
Keep it there long enough for their backup to arrive in case of t1 frigates, or just kill it in case of faction / t2 frigs.
Sacrificing a Rifter or Merlin in order to kill a pirate frigate is definitely a good trade, considering the time it takes to take down a properly buffered Rifter or Merlin it isnt even set in stone that you will lose it.
Originally by: Merdaneth
Additionally, there is always the overheat option.
That can safely be disregarded given that both can overheat, and afterburners take heat far longer than your typical engagement will last.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
It is one of the reasons why the five midslot Hookbill has proven to be very effective against them as it has slots for EHP and twin web without sacrificing speed.
The Hookbill has no trouble dictating range on a deadspace AB dramiel with a single web and even by just using a named AB. Twin webs are needed only against a Dramiel that has a web on its own.
As for the original question, keep in mind what your particular setup is made for. Dualprop setups are designed to hunt down other MWD frigates like interceptors. If you are looking for a pure dogfighting setup, you go with afterburner + scram + web on the Dramiel.
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Omaut Nihilo
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Posted - 2011.02.28 22:07:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
As for the original question, keep in mind what your particular setup is made for. Dualprop setups are designed to hunt down other MWD frigates like interceptors. If you are looking for a pure dogfighting setup, you go with afterburner + scram + web on the Dramiel.
Thank you, this post has cleared it up for me.
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Aznwithbeard
Minmatar
OMGROFLSTOMP
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Posted - 2011.03.01 21:51:00 -
[7]
I find that dual prop drams arent really hard to keep up with once you land the scram/web if you have an AB. overheated AB on an armor thrasher w/ scram-web has helped me pop a few drams. problem is once youve caught it youre pretty commited to the fight and if you dont have a great tank, the dram is killing you. its a dps-ee + speedy + tanky little *****.
Guns don't kill people. onowait. |
Rasz Lin
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.02 02:44:00 -
[8]
just use Daredevil
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.02 05:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Merdaneth
Additionally, there is always the overheat option.
That can safely be disregarded given that both can overheat, and afterburners take heat far longer than your typical engagement will last.
If it were just about how long you can overheat, maybe. Its more about when you overheat.
Quote:
The Hookbill has no trouble (in fact very very few 3+ midslot frigates have) dictating range on a deadspace AB dramiel with a single web and even by just using a named AB. Twin webs are needed only against a Dramiel that has a web on its own for range dictation. They do serve their purpose for maximizing rocket damage though, but then again a TD will overall be a better choice.
You're just wrong there.
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.03.02 06:20:00 -
[10]
My Ishkur would like to have a word with said Dramiel.
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Dek'athor
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Posted - 2011.03.02 06:23:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Dek''athor on 02/03/2011 06:24:18
The problem with dramiels in NOT dps-ing them down, it's STOPPING them from running away
That said, there is only one way to reliably kill dramiels: DAREDEVIL
needs faction web (19,5km range overheated preffered), faction AB and the ability to overheat both. 90% slowing web makes dramiel crawl at under 250 m/s, if the dramiel has a web, it will make daredevil go at 600+m/s. Hence, dramiel just lost the speed advantage.
HOWEVER, dramiel does have higher EHP than daredevil (6.5 k vs 4.8k - ish), and in the same time Daredevil has higher DPS BUT in order to apply it, daredevil needs to STOP AB-ing in order for his weapons to reliably track in the optimal.
From there it's just a numbers game, and the sucess rate of dramiel killing increases if the daredevil pilot can maintain a 1.5km range with AB on/off and minimize transversal
Of course, if 2x dramiels come along...
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Chatgrus
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Posted - 2011.03.02 06:25:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Chatgrus on 02/03/2011 06:25:15
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Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.03.02 06:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dek'athor
There is only one way to reliably kill dramiels: DAREDEVIL
needs faction web (19,5km range overheated preffered), faction AB and the ability to overheat both. 90% slowing web makes dramiel crawl at under 250 m/s, if the dramiel has a web, it will make daredevil go at 600+m/s. Hence, dramiel just lost the speed advantage.
HOWEVER, dramiel does have higher EHP than daredevil (6.5 k vs 4.8k - ish), and in the same time Daredevil has higher DPS BUT in order to apply it, daredevil needs to STOP AB-ing in order for his weapons to reliably track in the optimal.
From there it's just a numbers game, and the sucess rate of dramiel killing increases if the daredevil pilot can maintain a 1.5km range with AB on/off and minimize transversal
Of course, if 2x dramiels come along...
The question is whether or not a Dramiel pilot would actually engage a DD within 18 km.
As far as tracking, just hit "approach", same story with the Ishkur.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.03.02 10:46:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 02/03/2011 10:46:33
Originally by: Bluejacket CT
The question is ...
Naah, the question is why the hell the DD isn't using rails like any sane person would, given the ability to completely immobilise a target 
Blasters are very limited on light hulls, they are barely worth it on destroyers thanks to range/tracking bonuses ... looks good in EFT though which I suppose is why they are still even mentioned
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
Waterboard
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Posted - 2011.03.02 12:44:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 02/03/2011 12:44:46
As long as the AB, Web, Scram frigate goes more than 800m/s it can dictate range on a standard Dual Prop Dramiel (no speed mods version). The main problem is very few have the tank to then kill the dramiel. Jaguars, Hookbills and Daredevils are the major ones I can think of that can dictate range on a Dramiel.
edit. Thats dictating range on the Dual prop with no speed mods dramiel
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Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Klyst Lysander
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Posted - 2011.03.02 19:48:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dek'athor
Edited by: Dek''athor on 02/03/2011 06:24:18
The problem with dramiels in NOT dps-ing them down, it's STOPPING them from running away
That said, there is only one way to reliably kill dramiels: DAREDEVIL
needs faction web (19,5km range overheated preffered), faction AB and the ability to overheat both. 90% slowing web makes dramiel crawl at under 250 m/s, if the dramiel has a web, it will make daredevil go at 600+m/s. Hence, dramiel just lost the speed advantage.
HOWEVER, dramiel does have higher EHP than daredevil (6.5 k vs 4.8k - ish), and in the same time Daredevil has higher DPS BUT in order to apply it, daredevil needs to STOP AB-ing in order for his weapons to reliably track in the optimal.
From there it's just a numbers game, and the sucess rate of dramiel killing increases if the daredevil pilot can maintain a 1.5km range with AB on/off and minimize transversal
Of course, if 2x dramiels come along...
I actually got jumped at by 2 dramiels when I was *cough* afk in a belt in nullsec.
One left the system in his pod, the other with a respectable hull breach.
Granted, my DD was full faction/deadspace fit... and I actually left with 7% structure left (54 ehp). /phew 
PS. I didnt have overheat back then (please dont laugh, I just didnt know it was that great :D). If I had, I could have caught the other dramiel that was orbiting at 18km, and reduce it to ashes too.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.03.02 20:08:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 02/03/2011 20:09:00
Originally by: Liang Nuren
If it were just about how long you can overheat, maybe. Its more about when you overheat.
That doesnt matter since you (both) can overheat for the whole time, you can safely punch in the heat after your first approach cycle. Afterburners take heat far longer than any normal (buffer tanked) frigate engagement will last.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote:
The Hookbill has no trouble (in fact very very few 3+ midslot frigates have) dictating range on a deadspace AB dramiel with a single web and even by just using a named AB. Twin webs are needed only against a Dramiel that has a web on its own for range dictation. They do serve their purpose for maximizing rocket damage though, but then again a TD will overall be a better choice.
You're just wrong there.
No, but please elaborate your point. A generic sweeping "You're wrong" statement doesnt really work with what you quoted.
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Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.03.02 22:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 02/03/2011 10:46:33
Naah, the question is why the hell the DD isn't using rails like any sane person would, given the ability to completely immobilise a target
Blasters are very limited on light hulls, they are barely worth it on destroyers thanks to range/tracking bonuses ... looks good in EFT though which I suppose is why they are still even mentioned
LOL
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.03 07:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
That doesnt matter since you (both) can overheat for the whole time, you can safely punch in the heat after your first approach cycle. Afterburners take heat far longer than any normal (buffer tanked) frigate engagement will last.
As I said, it has nothing at all to do with how long you can overload. It has to do with when you do it.
Quote:
No, but please elaborate your point. A generic sweeping "You're wrong" statement doesnt really work with what you quoted.
A webbed Dramiel still goes 1400 m/s. A Rifter with AB goes 1154 m/s.
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
Waterboard
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Posted - 2011.03.03 08:33:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote:
No, but please elaborate your point. A generic sweeping "You're wrong" statement doesnt really work with what you quoted.
A webbed Dramiel still goes 1400 m/s. A Rifter with AB goes 1154 m/s.
-Liang
What dramiel fit is that number based on, as a AB dramiel with no speed mods does roughly 800m/s after web
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Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.03 09:40:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
What dramiel fit is that number based on, as a AB dramiel with no speed mods does roughly 800m/s after web
Overheated Coreli C-Type AB with a HG snake set.
I believe this to be a fair comparison because:
- I actually see deadspace prop mods on lots of Dramiels.
- I actually see HG snakes pretty commonly on Dramiels.
- I don't see HG snake set rifters on a regular basis.
- I've never seen deadspace prop mods on a Rifter.
You can argue that this is a problem with the Snake set, but you'd be wrong. The Dramiel is the only ship that I'm aware of that can generally get away from even frigs while scrammed and webbed. ;-)
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
Waterboard
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Posted - 2011.03.03 09:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Korg Leaf
What dramiel fit is that number based on, as a AB dramiel with no speed mods does roughly 800m/s after web
Overheated Coreli C-Type AB with a HG snake set.
I believe this to be a fair comparison because:
- I actually see deadspace prop mods on lots of Dramiels.
- I actually see HG snakes pretty commonly on Dramiels.
- I don't see HG snake set rifters on a regular basis.
- I've never seen deadspace prop mods on a Rifter.
You can argue that this is a problem with the Snake set, but you'd be wrong. The Dramiel is the only ship that I'm aware of that can generally get away from even frigs while scrammed and webbed. ;-)
-Liang
Fair enough my numbers didnt factor Snakes only the deadspace prop mod (Gistii B-type)
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Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.03.03 19:03:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 03/03/2011 19:05:00
Originally by: Liang Nuren
As I said, it has nothing at all to do with how long you can overload. It has to do with when you do it.
Again, that does not matter since 'when' equals 'always' in that particular situation.
Quote:
A webbed Dramiel still goes 1400 m/s. A Rifter with AB goes 1154 m/s.
Your cookie cutter armor rifter goes 1340ms including Zor's Hyperlink and CY-1 implants (which is a more than fair assumption, given you assume a full HG snake set on the Dramiel).
But anyway, the thing you quoted was referring to a Hookbill. Your single-webbed HG snaked Dramiel will still be a lot too slow to dictate range on a Hookbill using no implants and a plain named afterburner. (Which is the reason one should decide if they want to go for a true dogfighting fit with web or a dualprop ceptor hunter.)
On a side note, it might be different in the area you pvp in, but HG Snakes being commonly used (or Snakes at all) is a pretty wild assumption. You are probably mistaking the omni-present Loki booster effects for Snake implants. Though that doesnt matter as neither are lost when the ship is destroyed, it just depends on having or not having them and not on ship type flown.
Really, the issue is rarely holding the thing down, the issue is actually getting it to engage anything apart from lone t1 frigates and ceptors in the first place.
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rodensteiner
Amarr
OMGROFLSTOMP
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Posted - 2011.03.03 19:14:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Korg Leaf
What dramiel fit is that number based on, as a AB dramiel with no speed mods does roughly 800m/s after web
Overheated Coreli C-Type AB with a HG snake set.
I believe this to be a fair comparison because:
- I actually see deadspace prop mods on lots of Dramiels.
- I actually see HG snakes pretty commonly on Dramiels
- I don't see HG snake set rifters on a regular basis.
- I've never seen deadspace prop mods on a Rifter.
You can argue that this is a problem with the Snake set, but you'd be wrong. The Dramiel is the only ship that I'm aware of that can generally get away from even frigs while scrammed and webbed. ;-)
-Liang
Wow, seriously???
I must be the cheapest and/or poorest Dramiel pilot around, then. I have no implants whatsoever, and I have only t1 and t2 mods on my Dramiel...seems to work fine. I also do over 1,000m/s on AB when webbed, but I do use a speedmod on my current fit.
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I'm horrible at PVP |
Aznwithbeard
Minmatar
OMGROFLSTOMP
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Posted - 2011.03.03 20:26:00 -
[25]
Confirming 90% of people flying drams are t1/t2 fit, and of those 90%, 90% have no business being in a dramiel.
TLDR- most dramiel pilots are idiots, but when used efficiently, they can be quite awesome.
Guns don't kill people. onowait. |
Willl Adama
Judicio Sine Misericordia
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Posted - 2011.03.05 18:44:00 -
[26]
Most people flying dramiels are complete ******s anyway. I Have personally killed dramiels (most of them dualprop) with Merlins, rifters, Tristans and even vigils. Any frig with scram/web/AB that can go +1100 m/s with heat is really able to keep MOST dramiels in place.
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Merdaneth
Amarr
Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2011.03.05 19:27:00 -
[27]
People always come with anecdotes of "I've killed a Dramiel in X", or "most Dramiel pilots are complete idiots". That is besides the point. Anyone competent person can kill an incompetent person in any ship.
The question you have to ask yourself is always: could one kill the Dramiel with ship X when both ships are piloted by yourself. When both pilots are equally competent. That is properly comparing ships, when you strip away the piloting variable.
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Willl Adama
Judicio Sine Misericordia
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Posted - 2011.03.05 20:50:00 -
[28]
Why? When I fit a ship to kill something else, I don't asume I'll be facing myself. I asume that the ship will be piloted and fitted corresponing to the average fit/skill of the pilots I usually encounter.
A well fit frigate with ab/scram/web can take down a dramiel that is either failfit or unproperly piloted (which happens to be the case more often than not), hence; it is a good counter to dramiels in general.
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Exarch Rakanis
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Posted - 2011.03.07 18:23:00 -
[29]
AB jag is also a great counter if you can get the dram pilot to engage. It can be kinda tricky but works some of the time as a lot of people make the assumption that all jags are Dual MSE fit.
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Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2011.03.09 14:27:00 -
[30]
Afterburner/web/scram AFs own Drams. It just can't match the dps/ehp of most of them.
That's why dual prop on frigs is fail. Why let your Taranis be kited by a Rifter? Why let your expensive Dramiel be owned by an Ishkur/Vengeance/Jaguar/Harpy/Hawk?
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