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Tia Aristoi
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:19:00 -
[1]
The way combat is presented in EvE makes me feel like I'm flying a spreadsheet and not a ship in space.
One of the things that originally attracted me to EvE were the trailers featuring what I thought were these amazing ingame battles. I haven't found them. When I go into combat I'm looking at little read dots on my HUD. The ships themselves are often so distant I can't even see them in the space around me. Changing the camera view doesn't seem to help much. In combat all I really do is change targets when the little red dots disappear, pop a ability occassionally, and reload my guns. Nothing at all cinematic about the experience.
When I do see ships up close (like my own) they don't turn smoothly, but seem to swivel about almost frantically. There's almost no sense that ships have mass. It gets worse when I have set my ship to approach another target. I pass through the target, turn instantly, and bounce back like I'm a yo-yo. It's like my ship is on a string.
It would be nice if ships turned a bit more slowly and alot more smoothly...and were set so when auto-approaching a target your autopilot slows and turns the ship to avoid passing through it.
Anyway, just wondering if anybody feels the same?
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Tippex 1st
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:24:00 -
[2]
Yes but cool stuff like that wont heappen because of :lag: in the "epic fleet battles" Ö that a whopping 3% of the playerbase participate in. Sorry bro, no cool stuff for us :/
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Tia Aristoi
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:26:00 -
[3]
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Blacksquirrel
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:31:00 -
[4]
Yeah dice rolls for anything is not as fun as actual skill, but what are you gonna do?
And combat is a bit "clunky". I think voice commands for ships would be cool like endwar, but other than that system is pretty ingrained.
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Teranul
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:33:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Teranul on 07/03/2011 20:35:25
What class of ship are you flying? How long have you been playing?
Are you familiar with the concepts of optimal range, accuracy falloff, tracking speed, explosion velocity, explosion radius, and transversal/angular velocity?
The game works better when you understand the concepts behind the combat and exactly just how flergin' huge these ships actually get, IMO.
 Originally by: Blacksquirrel
Yeah dice rolls for anything is not as fun as actual skill, but what are you gonna do?
Something else people have to realize is that ships of the class you are flying cannot be piloted with a joystick properly. They're ginormous ships, waaay bigger than our seaborne vessels ever will be.
The way they are piloted in game is also the most realistic method of controlling a ship with a crew in the dozens, hundreds, or thousands (battleship class+).
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Zirse
Minmatar
ZED Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:36:00 -
[6]
Move to lowsec/nullsec and actually PvP, instead of running missions.
Running missions is NOT fun, nor is it EVE combat.
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Xercodo
Amarr
Daj'Juntar
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:37:00 -
[7]
try doing L4s with a AC cane, get up in their face, orbiting, torpedoes going on on your hull, the ching-ching-ching of the 425s......ahhhhh
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The drake is a lie
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:37:00 -
[8]
Well, yeah.
Engagement ranges tend to be in the 20û100km range these days. Just think how long it takes to drive that far!
à
sorryà 
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
FeralShadow
RipStar Mining Industries
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:47:00 -
[9]
Yeah... Like someone said missions is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz boring, and not at all cinematic like you say. Actual large scale fleet fights can get pretty freakin epic. Even if you only see dots, LOTS of those dots all shooting missiles and lasers and rail guns, well.. then you get what looks like a small swarm in the distance firing death at you. Much more fun. And then add in the capitals doing their thing while you're zooming around in an interceptor. tbh the most fun i've ever had in fleet fights was zooming around in interceptors while the battleship fleets slugged it out.
_______________________________________________
"If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
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Tia Aristoi
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:48:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Tia Aristoi on 07/03/2011 20:49:45
Yeah I guess the main issues I have are:
1. Engagement ranges. Why do they have to be so big? Would anyone object if they were shortened?
2. Awkward ship movement and interaction between objects
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Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tia Aristoi
Yeah I guess the main issues I have are:
1. Engagement ranges. Why do they have to be so big? Would anyone object if they were shortened?
2. Awkward ship movement and interaction
1. Absolutely yes. The closer the engagement range, the higher the transversal and angular velocities, making larger weapon tracking far more difficult. Unless you want to rewrite the entire combat system code, the engagement ranges are fine.
2. As opposed to what? flying a space fighter? A hurricane is a half a kilometer long, a quarter mile. How graceful do you think it's going to be? As for your dislike of the approach function, I can see that. But by asking the ship to slow and turn before contact, you're taking away bumping as a tactic.
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Teranul
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:54:00 -
[12]
Engagement range is determined by the combat situation.
In most missions you do NOT want to be smack dab in the middle of all the rats taking fire from everything in the room simultaneously, so you're going to wait to fight from a great distance.
Likewise, in PvP you want to pick the weapon most optimal for your most likely engagement range. You don't stick blasters on a BS, for example, because chances are fairly high your target(s) will be fighting at longer engagement ranges and blasters are only good if you're at point-blank range on a tackled target (and with BS speed, that's a pretty big liability).
That being said, you can choose to fight at close-to-point-blank ranges if you want to. You'd just have to deal with the consequences of doing so.
Physics, on the other hand, I agree with wholeheartedly... but they're simplified the way they are because physics are calculated server-side. Even the basic form of spaceship physics we have now is pretty taxing on the hardware.
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Blacksquirrel
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:56:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Something else people have to realize is that ships of the class you are flying cannot be piloted with a joystick properly. They're ginormous ships, waaay bigger than our seaborne vessels ever will be.
The way they are piloted in game is also the most realistic method of controlling a ship with a crew in the dozens, hundreds, or thousands (battleship class+).
Yes and this a video game... And i've yet to see it sold as "space ship simulation" Furthermore ships today are in fact piloted by a joystick or wheel... Done via a fellow called a helmsman... or in the case of a subs and other ships 2-3. And
Dice rolling still not as good of system as skill You can make the argument of "well your gunners suck" or "Lucky shots" but a hit is still up to the computer rather than actions I take or the other person EG: I roll or dodge to avoid fire, I target specifics on their ship... etc etc.
I understand why this is impossible in eve (Though specific system targeting could be implemented) doesn't mean I have to be a fan of it.
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Teranul
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:04:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
Yes and this a video game... And i've yet to see it sold as "space ship simulation" Furthermore ships today are in fact piloted by a joystick or wheel... Done via a fellow called a helmsman... or in the case of a subs and other ships 2-3.
And this is an awfully inefficient mechanism that would be blatantly inferior in a fully 3D environment like deep space to a single individual mentally controlling the ship and using other objects in space as points of reference to determine engagement ranges and movement patterns.
RL examples really don't work very well here...
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
Dice rolling still not as good of system as skill You can make the argument of "well your gunners suck" or "Lucky shots" but a hit is still up to the computer rather than actions I take or the other person EG: I roll or dodge to avoid fire, I target specifics on their ship... etc etc.
Your ship is controlled by your character... who is mentally linked to the ship and controls it like they control their own body.
Believe it or not, it is still a role-playing game, not a dogfighting action game or any other thing people want it to be despite it most definitely never, ever being advertised as such. (Not to mention trying to shoot people across kilometers of distance manually would be a friggin' nightmare. What kinda fun is that?)
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
I understand why this is impossible in eve (Though specific system targeting could be implemented) doesn't mean I have to be a fan of it.
Of course. You're entitled to your opinion. I agree that it is not the most fun or exciting form of combat available, but it is certainly the most realistic.
If you want a game with more fun and exciting one-on-one combat, you can play an offline sci-fi sim, as they're actually designed for it. EVE is simply not that kind of game.
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Tia Aristoi
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:09:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Tia Aristoi on 07/03/2011 21:14:13
I'm not asking to fly my ship like its a starfighter with a joystick. Actually it's the opposite.
I would prefer if ships turned more slowly across the board. I would also prefer that they shorten the weapon ranges across the board so I could actually see my enemy. Basically I thought I was going to play a space MMO with amazing space combat similiar to Homeworld. Naive I know but that's what I got from the trailers.
But as folks said this would mean alot of recoding by CCP and could be just plain impossible anyway given the limitations of the server(s). So yeah I can see now how thats not gonna happen. Bummer.
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Teranul
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:18:00 -
[16]
Like I said before... what ship class are you flying?
I think you'll find battleship+ class ships are very slow-moving huge chunks of metal with obscene levels of power. The change going from frigates to cruiser, and then from cruisers to battlecruisers, and then from battlecruisers to battleships, and even further into capital ships is quite a transformation. If you haven't worked your way up to those classes of ship yet, you should withhold your judgment.
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Tia Aristoi
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:28:00 -
[17]
I think I'm in a cruiser. Honestly I'm really bad with names so I can't remember which ship exactly. I'll look at up when I get home.
And I completely believe what you said about the bigger ship classes. I just don't think I've got the stamina to grind though the hours and hours of dull combat to get to that point.
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Zyress
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:45:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Zyress on 07/03/2011 21:50:16
Originally by: Teranul
Edited by: Teranul on 07/03/2011 20:35:25
What class of ship are you flying? How long have you been playing?
Are you familiar with the concepts of optimal range, accuracy falloff, tracking speed, explosion velocity, explosion radius, and transversal/angular velocity?
The game works better when you understand the concepts behind the combat and exactly just how flergin' huge these ships actually get, IMO.
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
Yeah dice rolls for anything is not as fun as actual skill, but what are you gonna do?
Something else people have to realize is that ships of the class you are flying cannot be piloted with a joystick properly. They're ginormous ships, waaay bigger than our seaborne vessels ever will be.
The way they are piloted in game is also the most realistic method of controlling a ship with a crew in the dozens, hundreds, or thousands (battleship class+).
We could end this whole joystick argument pretty quickly by letting them try it. You try navigating an orbit around an object moving at several hundered meters a second maintaining a range of between say 7 - 8 kms constantly while traveling at several hundered meters a sec yourself, while watching your overview and maintaining situational awareness.
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Aunt margret
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Posted - 2011.03.07 22:20:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zyress
try navigating an orbit around an object moving at several hundered meters a second maintaining a range of between say 7 - 8 kms constantly while traveling at several hundered meters a sec yourself, while watching your overview and maintaining situational awareness.
Ahh, we have a fan of elite frontier then
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2011.03.07 22:39:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
Quote:
Something else people have to realize is that ships of the class you are flying cannot be piloted with a joystick properly. They're ginormous ships, waaay bigger than our seaborne vessels ever will be.
The way they are piloted in game is also the most realistic method of controlling a ship with a crew in the dozens, hundreds, or thousands (battleship class+).
Yes and this a video game... And i've yet to see it sold as "space ship simulation" Furthermore ships today are in fact piloted by a joystick or wheel... Done via a fellow called a helmsman... or in the case of a subs and other ships 2-3.
Yes a helmsman controls the heading and speed of a ship but that's all he does in most cases he cant even really see anything at all and is reliant on navigational RADAR operators and visual observers as the eyes and he has nothing at all to do with planning a course or deciding his heading that's all up to the Coxswain and/or the navigator.
Not even counting the multitude of other tasks like weapons operation, tactical RADAR operation and the dozens of other crew stations that need to be manned and not even counting maintenance duties.
The helmsman doesn't sit there pressing buttons operating everything.
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Shiarra Bloom
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Posted - 2011.03.07 22:51:00 -
[21]
Okay looked it up. I'm currently flying a Moa cruiser.
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ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.07 23:09:00 -
[22]
Yep OP, you summed up EVE¦s "Battle-engine" in a nutshell.
That¦s why Trek Online was such a revelation to me(even in the current "beta" stage). MMO space battles that are actually fun, have (somewhat) of a line of sight and are more tactical and strategic through the use of different ship energy levels, shield quadrants and "powers".
The only thing that makes EVE battles even remotely exciting is the risk of permanent loss of real value items one the destruction of your ship.
Either learn to love it or move on. I¦m pretty sure the wiggling backsides expansion called Incarna will not solve your problem at all.
BTW, Cognitive Dissonance meet Eve-Fanbois.
Jeez guys. 
______________
Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦
Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.`
Mal-¦Aint we just.¦ |
Boltorano
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
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Posted - 2011.03.07 23:13:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Boltorano on 07/03/2011 23:16:41
The sad thing is, if engagement ranges were "realistic" in terms of what we could expect from real-world future space combat, we would be attacking each other with missiles and grasers from hundreds of thousands to millions of kilometers away, not 0-350km, while moving at dozens to hundreds of KPS.
It's one of the sacrifices EVE makes for combat to actually be fun.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.03.08 00:33:00 -
[24]
You can get the cinematics you want, you just have to actually do it. Use "look at" and "set focus" or whatever that **** is to keep the camera on your targets and zoom out, play with the camera etc. I do it when I get really bored grinding missions for standings.
Would be nice if you could save some sort of camera settings/behavior so stuff like that would just automatically load instead of having to fool with it all the time. You can get some pretty nice looking action if you want to mess with it.
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[SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2011.03.08 00:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Boltorano
Edited by: Boltorano on 07/03/2011 23:16:41
The sad thing is, if engagement ranges were "realistic" in terms of what we could expect from real-world future space combat, we would be attacking each other with missiles and grasers from hundreds of thousands to millions of kilometers away, not 0-350km, while moving at dozens to hundreds of KPS.
It's one of the sacrifices EVE makes for combat to actually be fun.
EVE combat is relatively short ranged, films and TV shows tend to show battles where you can see both sides in one frame mainly for cinematic reasons but generally the harder SF does have battles where opposing fleets are thousands of kilometres apart.
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Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Swarm of Angry Bees
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Posted - 2011.03.08 01:48:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 08/03/2011 01:48:20
I remember the commercials years and years ago on TV. It looked so epic, particularly in one cinematic where two ships were side by side trading blows moving linearly in the same direction towards the screen. I thought, wow, I have got to play that.
Then the reality of it hit.
Of course, being Caldari, I really wouldn't want to see another ship close up, that's usually a bad thing for me!
>
WHILE SIG<AWESOME DO
LOOP
there is no escape from my crappy sig. |
Goose99
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Posted - 2011.03.08 01:48:00 -
[27]
They should bring the nano back.
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Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr
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Posted - 2011.03.08 01:58:00 -
[28]
Actually, the more you dig into the combat system, the more it reveals its richness. You can go on the test server and learn the ropes by yourself (usually by first losing hundreds of (free) ships). There's much much more than approaching, orbiting, hitting some buttons on an interface.
Once you want to master tracking, damage reduction/optimization, range control and such, the game is suddenly more dynamic. Add to this the massive amount of parameters you have to mentally process once you know how ship X should be used against ship Y depending on circumstances Z, it gets really interesting. Not to talk about micro-management of mods and overloading on some ships.
What, I, I'd like to see is the opposite of what you want : I'd like a real 3D tactical display without any shiny graphics, just informations for a good spatial and velocities visualization.
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Herrring
Amarr
Caldari Internal Revenue Service
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Posted - 2011.03.08 03:31:00 -
[29]
Yeah thats what i thought tooo.
But eve combat(pvp wise at least) is a lot more than orbit + lock target and shoot
Alot of it is counter fitting the opponent if possible and your piloting skills, that is if you have similar skill points(which a lot of people say it doesnt matter but it does matter, alot, in small gang pvp.)
The only thing i would like to see in eve combat is the projectiles and laser beams and missiles and such get blocked by collidable objects or other ships.
But it would strain the server too much and probably wont happen in another 2 decades.
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Teranul
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Posted - 2011.03.08 06:32:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Teranul on 08/03/2011 06:32:08
Originally by: Lady Skank
EVE combat is relatively short ranged, films and TV shows tend to show battles where you can see both sides in one frame mainly for cinematic reasons but generally the harder SF does have battles where opposing fleets are thousands of kilometres apart.
This bears repeating.
EVE actually does make some concessions for the sake of gameplay. They just don't go the full monty with obscene engagement ranges and full newtonian physics (which are so much more difficult to grasp than the space-is-like-water physics we have now).
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