| Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Garresh
Deep Axion
Ushra'Khan
25
   |
Posted - 2012.08.26 08:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think it's safe to say that FW plexing is, in it's current state, a broken mechanic. It's shifting the focus away from PvP, and despite the attempt to get people into lowsec all it's doing is filling lowsec with 2 day old alts that people use to make isk while they play somewhere else. Anyways, the problem with FW isn't the amount of LP being paid out, or even the ability to clear plexes in a gunless ship(remember many PvP ships aren't optimized for dps, and a lot of them can't even clear some of the sites without backup). The problem is how easy it is to go into dead end systems and make boatloads of isk.
So, how do we fix this?
Well, there's 2 components:
1. Add a new tab in the Factional Warfare window which shows all plexes current under attack by the enemy faction, with the ability to sort by location/distance and display the number of ships within the plex. It doesn't have to spam your inbox or pop up tons of alerts. It just tells players looking for PvP where to find it.
2. Change the way that LP is awarded so that if you defend and capture a plex that was under attack, you get all the LP that the attacker would have received. For example, if you caught an enemy ship in a minor plex that was halfway captured and you sit on the button for 5 minutes, you receive the 5000 LP he had generated thus far. If you intercept someone in a major, who was only 2 minutes in, you'll only receive about 1500 LP.
Why does this fix the problem?
Well, it changes the way that LP is distributed. As it currently is, it frontloads all the LP into farming alts who attack plexes in out of the way systems, hoping that the enemy PvP players don't notice them. And nobody defensive plexes. A quick look at any FW tab shows that both sides will sit at around 15-20% warzone control, with a MASSIVE gap in the middle due to the lack of defensive plexing. All in all, it creates a huge LP fountain for alts and farmers, and doesn't actually generate any incentive to PvP.
Under this new system, the amount of LP generated *does not change*. What does change, however, is that you get paid for defending systems and actively seeking fights. You, in essence, "steal" the LP rewards from attackers. Now this isn't going to cause all the farmers to just evaporate, and it isn't going to reduce LP income on any real scale. You'll still be able to fund your eve experience by plexing. The big change here is that people who who want to PvP will be able to find fights, and in the process they will get paid while actively reducing alt farmer income.
Within a few weeks, alt farmer income would drop to very little, as they would be forced to either fit guns and fight for their plexes, or go find another source of income. This would happen seamlessly, without changing LP payout rates at all. It just moves the LP into the right hands...the ones holding the gun. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
220
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 08:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
you can see from militia office which systems are under attack.
Minor takes 10 minutes to take so no point to advert it to people who are 20 jump away.
It is just about that people are not willing to do basic scouting, now you want that ccp does all scouting for you, get lost and learn to play. |
Garresh
Deep Axion
Ushra'Khan
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 09:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Because when people are out of fleets they're going to wander around and scout all day. 
Quote:Minor takes 10 minutes to take so no point to advert it to people who are 20 jump away.
Hence the "sort by distance" feature available in every other Eve window ever. So, ya know, a guy, or small group wandering around will be able to react quickly. Large fleets won't bother. Small squads of defenders will.
Oh, and it actually adds to strategic importance to the decision of whether to go for the minor or the major, because larger plexes give the enemy longer to react. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
340
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 13:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
perhaps instead of a new one of these threads every day in this forum, it should go in features and ideas. devs don't really wander in here, and i'd guess neither do the people that direct the devs to threads. so, perhaps, if there are 20 or 30 threads in F&I about changing FW mechanics, someone might get the idea that the players think there is something wrong with the FW mechanics.
just a thought.
|
Draconis VI
Porezna Uprava
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 14:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
FW plexing is fine L2P or GTFO
the lp sink is great anyways,best plan to battle constant eve isk inflation in a while,so whatever else it does it is less important |
Lord BryanII
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 15:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
yay, another one of these threads. Haven't had one in like a day so I was getting worried |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
269
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 17:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Draconis VI wrote:FW plexing is fine L2P or GTFO
the lp sink is great anyways,best plan to battle constant eve isk inflation in a while,so whatever else it does it is less important
Except that it isn't much of a sink at all.
1. In the process of taking just a single system you make almost 3M LP assuming the enemy does not defend at all .. that is enough to fully upgrade roughly twenty (20) systems to Lvl5.
2. Systems are only upgraded in bulk and not continually as the only thing worth a damn is the broken-as-hell WZC modifiers.
So assuming you need say 50 systems upgraded to get tier5:
- First 2.5 systems generate the LP for the entire upgrade cycle, leaving 47.5 systems worth of LP or as numerical value ~ 142.5M LP
- When upgrade hits that LP lump is effectively quadrupled so that it has store value equal to over half a billion LP, and that does not even account for ISK costs in store also feeling the love of the modifier.
It is that "great LP sink" mechanic that has turned FW into the greatest Farm Eve has ever seen or is likely to see.
In short: Not that great.
On a personal note: Hahahahahahahaha, told you so!
(This will henceforth be attached to all non-official FW posts made by yours truly) |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
850
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 17:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
what time is it?
ah right
FW damage control:
Bienator II wrote:
- no LP payout for vulnerable systems
- timer runs backwards if you leave the flag of a plex
- requirement to kill all NPCs in a plex
- no missions in friendly space
a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105
You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Draconis VI
Porezna Uprava
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 07:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
@Veshta Yoshida
nobody cares if they spawn LP out of thin air,as long as they reduce the TOTAL AMOUNT OF ISK IN GAME everyhing is fine
when they decide its been enough in like a year or two ( when isk reaches a normal value of inflation and worth ) all the LP will get nerfed and worthless.
Until that time comes it is better if everybody earns more LP faster for the whole universe
So frankly LP is of no importance. |
Garresh
Deep Axion
Ushra'Khan
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 10:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Draconis VI wrote:@Veshta Yoshida
nobody cares if they spawn LP out of thin air,as long as they reduce the TOTAL AMOUNT OF ISK IN GAME everyhing is fine
when they decide its been enough in like a year or two ( when isk reaches a normal value of inflation and worth ) all the LP will get nerfed and worthless.
Until that time comes it is better if everybody earns more LP faster for the whole universe
So frankly LP is of no importance.
Because that's *fantastic* game design. LP is an isk sink, but my suggestion won't reduce the amount of LP being generated. ALL I am suggesting is a change in how LP is distributed, such that it forces the FW front to resemble an actual conflict, as opposed to a farmfest with a few really fun fleets every couple days. FW is the only part of eve that geniunely *isn't* PvP. Yeah players can pop your farm alt, but what do you lose? There's no counterplay, because there's no incentive to try and stop farmers. You're better off farming, which leads to fleets of farmers ignoring each other. It's why the side with the most players *always* wins the sovreignty/control war, regardless of player skill. Plus FW farming is safer than mission running and pays out at least 5x as much. I think if you do it right you can get rates around the level of 8x as much. It's just bad for the game.
edit: Typos. Time to sleep. |
|
|
Draconis VI
Porezna Uprava
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 10:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
i understand what you are saying garresh but IMO you make a mistake in calculating the profit from FW
since FW profit is dependant on the market and it can only gain you a limited (although large) number of items from the fw store at some point in the imminent future all the items you can get from the LP store will plumet.
Than the profits will go down and it should get closer to what you can earn from lv 4-s,what is about the level I personaly think it sohuld be.
Another bonus of this is,there can be only very little profitable LP hording,and all of EVE get cheap learning implants,so newer chars should have an easier start in the game. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
594
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 14:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:you can see from militia office which systems are under attack.
.
Can you? I thought you just saw the level it was contested.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
227
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 15:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:you can see from militia office which systems are under attack.
. Can you? I thought you just saw the level it was contested.
Contested = system under attack.
Anyway after amarr took systems, every ******* systems was farmed 24/7 and no one cared, so no point to make any new system to announce things, no one is going to do anything advert or not. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
594
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 15:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:Cearain wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:you can see from militia office which systems are under attack.
. Can you? I thought you just saw the level it was contested. Contested = system under attack..
Actually systems that are no longer under attack can be contested. Also a system could be stable but currently have plexes under attack. You know this already.
Bad Messenger wrote:
Anyway after amarr took systems, every ******* systems was farmed 24/7 and no one cared, so no point to make any new system to announce things, no one is going to do anything advert or not.
If they combine this information with a timer that counts back (nothing too draconian just count back 3 minutes or so if an enemy is on grid with accel gate) then I think militias would be able to adequately be able to prevent farmers with as few as 10 active pilots people.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Garresh
Deep Axion
Ushra'Khan
36
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 19:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
Draconis VI wrote:i understand what you are saying garresh but IMO you make a mistake in calculating the profit from FW
since FW profit is dependant on the market and it can only gain you a limited (although large) number of items from the fw store at some point in the imminent future all the items you can get from the LP store will plumet.
Than the profits will go down and it should get closer to what you can earn from lv 4-s,what is about the level I personaly think it sohuld be.
Another bonus of this is,there can be only very little profitable LP hording,and all of EVE get cheap learning implants,so newer chars should have an easier start in the game.
We both know that most things generated by the LP store are absolutely excellent. Yes, items will eventually come down in price, but I don't think they'll ever go as low as you think. If FW isk income reaches as low as even double the isk from missions it'll still find equilibrium because then every PvPer will want access to cheap ships that wreck face. Every item generated by LP is in high demand. And if they become cheap more will flood to access them. You're underestimating just how strong the demand part of the curve is in this case.
And besides, this was never about "nerfing" LP rewards. It's about restributing it in a more logical and interesting fashion, which would make FW much more interesting and not drive away the core player base of FW. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
450
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 23:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Garresh wrote:
Because that's *fantastic* game design. LP is an isk sink, but my suggestion won't reduce the amount of LP being generated.
Remove farmers and just as much LP would be generated? Really?
|
Garresh
Deep Axion
Ushra'Khan
37
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 03:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Garresh wrote:
Because that's *fantastic* game design. LP is an isk sink, but my suggestion won't reduce the amount of LP being generated.
Remove farmers and just as much LP would be generated? Really?
Actually, yes. Farmers will still exist, in smaller numbers. Ship losses aren't a threat to them because their ships are cheap. Many leave in frustration because it's not longer as effective in terms of isk/hour, but some remain and try to make it work. On the flip side, people looking to PvP can actually plex as a way to attract enemies to them and get fights. Kicking the hornet's nest, so to speak. Instead of wandering from system to system, a player looking for fights can pick a system to attack, knowing that the fight will come to him *and* he's doing a service to his militia, and getting paid for it.
It bridges the gap between farming and PvP, and links sovreignty, farming, and PvP in a much more direct way. Honestly, it benefits everyone except alt farmers. People who farms on their mains come out just fine because they can defend themselves. |
Draconis VI
Porezna Uprava
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 09:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Garresh wrote:Draconis VI wrote:i understand what you are saying garresh but IMO you make a mistake in calculating the profit from FW
since FW profit is dependant on the market and it can only gain you a limited (although large) number of items from the fw store at some point in the imminent future all the items you can get from the LP store will plumet.
Than the profits will go down and it should get closer to what you can earn from lv 4-s,what is about the level I personaly think it sohuld be.
Another bonus of this is,there can be only very little profitable LP hording,and all of EVE get cheap learning implants,so newer chars should have an easier start in the game. We both know that most things generated by the LP store are absolutely excellent. Yes, items will eventually come down in price, but I don't think they'll ever go as low as you think. If FW isk income reaches as low as even double the isk from missions it'll still find equilibrium because then every PvPer will want access to cheap ships that wreck face. Every item generated by LP is in high demand. And if they become cheap more will flood to access them. You're underestimating just how strong the demand part of the curve is in this case. And besides, this was never about "nerfing" LP rewards. It's about restributing it in a more logical and interesting fashion, which would make FW much more interesting and not drive away the core player base of FW.
Agreed,but i think the demand is not so great since multiple militias are regularly reaching T5,and at least the stuff they have in common will have to grow cheaper,if nothing else then simply because the amount of farmers is staggering.
|
Webvan
State War Academy
Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 10:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
Garresh wrote:So, how do we fix this?
Uhhhh you are skipping a vital step, that being to convince CCP that there is something wrong with FW:
CSM & CCP Meeting minutes, May 30th GÇô 1st June 2012 Page: 110
CCP Soundwave then took a moment to pose a philosophical question GÇô GÇ£If someone joins FW, and just wants to run missions, is that actually a bad thing? Do we have to force people to PvP?GÇ¥
Soooooo.... if it's not broken but working as intended, why would ccp soundwave say "oh here is the solution!"?
Well, the past two CSM elections, FW was the #1 issue I was looking for in a candidate... and of course they always lost. No one really cares about FW, only to make it a reason to draw population into lowsec, period. |
Mallak Azaria
588
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 18:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Being such a high priority, I would imagine this will get fixed super-fast (Note that CCP's idea of super-fast is around 1500 days).
Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
|
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
454
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 20:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Garresh wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Garresh wrote:
Because that's *fantastic* game design. LP is an isk sink, but my suggestion won't reduce the amount of LP being generated.
Remove farmers and just as much LP would be generated? Really? Actually, yes. Farmers will still exist, in smaller numbers..... Yes I agree it will make me even richer if you remove farmers. the isk/LP payouts will increase by quite a bit. But I'm not going to generate more LP because farmers aren't around.
|
Garresh
Deep Axion
Ushra'Khan
42
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 04:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Yes I agree it will make me even richer if you remove farmers. the isk/LP payouts will increase by quite a bit. But I'm not going to generate more LP because farmers aren't around.
You're not the person who would suddenly be generating more LP. The players who hated plexing as a mechanic would be generating LP because they suddenly find the LP generation mechanic is directly coupled with a mechanic to find fights.
Quote:CSM & CCP Meeting minutes, May 30th GÇô 1st June 2012 Page: 110
CCP Soundwave then took a moment to pose a philosophical question GÇô GÇ£If someone joins FW, and just wants to run missions, is that actually a bad thing? Do we have to force people to PvP?GÇ¥
And he's right. If you join FW to run missions, that isn't a bad thing. Feel free. The bad part is when a PvP centric mechanic is being taken over by farmers and actively discouraging PvP. Running missions to farm LP should stay. I'm not against that either in theory or in practice. I'm against LP farming via plexing, on gunless ships. Believe it or not, I don't want farming removed from lowsec. I just want farming de-coupled from the sovreignty mechanic. But since that isn't going to happen I will settle for increasing the tools of PvP oriented players to deal with the farming fleets. I want to see militia get paid TO fight, rather than as a MEANS TO fight. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings
Ushra'Khan
127
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 04:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lord BryanII wrote:yay, another one of these threads. Haven't had one in like a day so I was getting worried
Not empty quoting.
Rabble Rabble!!
Don't mind me. I just enjoy crapping all over the forums and laughing at the people who take it too seriously. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
233
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 08:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:Cearain wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:you can see from militia office which systems are under attack.
. Can you? I thought you just saw the level it was contested. Contested = system under attack.. Actually systems that are no longer under attack can be contested. Also a system could be stable but currently have plexes under attack. You know this already. Bad Messenger wrote:
Anyway after amarr took systems, every ******* systems was farmed 24/7 and no one cared, so no point to make any new system to announce things, no one is going to do anything advert or not.
If they combine this information with a timer that counts back (nothing too draconian just count back 3 minutes or so if an enemy is on grid with accel gate) then I think militias would be able to adequately be able to prevent farmers with as few as 10 active pilots people.
and why should 10 guys be able to stop 100+ farmers? |
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 10:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Garresh wrote:So, how do we fix this? Uhhhh you are skipping a vital step, that being to convince CCP that there is something wrong with FW: CSM & CCP Meeting minutes, May 30th GÇô 1st June 2012 Page: 110 CCP Soundwave then took a moment to pose a philosophical question GÇô GÇ£If someone joins FW, and just wants to run missions, is that actually a bad thing? Do we have to force people to PvP?GÇ¥ Soooooo.... if it's not broken but working as intended, why would ccp soundwave say "oh here is the solution!"? Well, the past two CSM elections, FW was the #1 issue I was looking for in a candidate... and of course they always lost. No one really cares about FW, only to make it a reason to draw population into lowsec, period.
A new player wants to join FW for PVE? That's GREAT!
Fit a Merlin and kill the rats in a Minor.
|
Garresh
Deep Axion
Ushra'Khan
42
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 01:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:
and why should 10 guys be able to stop 100+ farmers?
For the same reason that 10 stealth bombers/cruisers/AFs/Battleships can kill 100+ hulks in nullsec. BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE GUNS.
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |