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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.09 20:04:00 - [1] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Malcanis No, in fact CCP will investigate your account to see if you have received large amounts of ISK from known ISK mules. I do not mean to brag, but if I look at Chribba's EVEBoard am I already among the 100 richest players on his board. And I have many transactions over my wallet every day, being a trader. I am pretty sure that some can be found in my transaction log. Ah, you are worried that people on that list have provided you with ISK, and thus you may be implicated and punished? I'm all for that if it gets you off my forums. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.09 20:10:00 - [2] Originally by: Ephemeron You can't win the war if you only play defense. And that's what CCP is doing There has to be an active and relentless offensive, attacking on all fronts, not just in-game, but using out of game tactics, such as hacker attacks, DoS'ing the websites, exposing private information of those involved. The people in RMT business need to have real FEAR of doing business. Without fear, there can be no change in behavior. I don't condone any illegal activity in order to crack down on RMT. On the other hand I'm all for CCP publishing a list of anyone warned or banned for it. The very fact that Eve is a single universe makes that kind of punishment effective (assuming they identify the "main" character involved). While there is a market for their "service" there will always be RMT. The trick is to reduce the demand because you'll never beat the supply. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.09 20:16:00 - [3] Edited by: Avon on 09/03/2011 20:15:48 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I don't. Eve "banks" are not something I follow. Your sig is 202 bytes oversized. Just sayin' so you can fix it and stuff. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.09 20:22:00 - [4] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 09/03/2011 20:15:48 Your sig is 202 bytes oversized. Just sayin' so you can fix it and stuff. Actually, it's 374 bytes under the limit. Just sayin' so you can understand math and stuff. Originally by: Forum rules Maximum file size: 24,000 bytes (not Kbytes) Your sig is 24202 bytes Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.09 20:25:00 - [5] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: baltec1 They have their credit cards and other personal info that they are not going to be giving out to the public. Sorry but that is far too much evidence to just say "gotta be fake". You do sound like you are deperatly trying to cast some mist over this. Where did you read that EveNews24 have the credit card information, too? EveNews24 created some nice looking pictures of bills, but they are good with artwork at EveNews24. Not to mention the publicity it gives them ... Oh dear, who should we believe? Your speculation is no more valid than theirs. You sure do seem very keen on discrediting this whole thing though. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.09 20:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa k. While I'm digging up the old PSD, maybe you could answer my question on the last page or I could report your posts for off-topic? Man, it's great to be back on the forums. Bloody hell, I was just trying to let you know so you can fix it - if the forums had a PM feature I would have done it that way. Chew me out for trying to help why don't ya? Feel free to report me for the OT post if it makes you feel better. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.09 20:48:00 - [7] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Avon Bloody hell, I was just trying to let you know so you can fix it - if the forums had a PM feature I would have done it that way. "Evemail"? -Liang Wait, what? You think I actually play the game? I just pay to play the forums, and I am too stupid to do that whole Eve-gate thingmy bob. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.09 21:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Tippia àof course, none of that matters since they don't need the CC information. Nonsense. If the names on this list match with CCP's own information then it is merely a happy coincidence, a fun fact, but nothing of value to CCP's efforts. They cannot even use this information to pat themselves on their backs, because the list is not one of their own efforts, it cannot be trusted and therefore not used for a verification. I wonder if you can understand this ... CCP could ban everyone on that list, and anyone who has transacted with those characters, on a whim. That is the bit you are failing to understand. There is no burden of proof. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.09 21:25:00 - [9] Originally by: Joe Skellington There's a lot of people ****ting their pants in this thread, lol. It seems more like one person; with very big pants. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.09 21:35:00 - [10] Heh, it is you that is banging on with the same old rhetoric, regardless of what others have to say. I think I have probably noticed more of the posts than you. :) Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.09 21:46:00 - [11] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 09/03/2011 21:37:42 Originally by: Avon Heh, it is you that is banging on with the same old rhetoric, regardless of what others have to say. I think I have probably noticed more of the posts than you. :) This is because you cannot read and only notice posts. @Tippia: why do you think I mention these 8 pages? Any ideas?? Originally by: Terms of Service 25. CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any userÆs account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted. 26. We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation. Burden of proof? Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.11 21:03:00 - [12] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Thats a good point but you don't get very much more isk from the rmters than you do from converting a gtc unless you buy in bulk. So about the only way to really make that difference stand out is to drop some major money on it to get the mass purchase effect. For the vast majority of buyers on that list they bought less than $100 in isk so that would hardly convey any tangable benefit over plex isk. Ah, so cheating is okay so long as you only cheat a little bit? Got it. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.11 23:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Whitehound I am getting a bit disappointed here. Cheating is a part of our intelligence. EVE players are among the most intelligent. Feeling grief over cheaters (where did they touch you, huh?) is not what an EVE player does. Perhaps you are just not an EVE player. I'm sorry, I am losing you a bit here. Are you confessing to cheating or admitting that you are dumb? Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.12 11:42:00 - [14] Edited by: Avon on 12/03/2011 11:42:27 Originally by: Whitehound Generally, however, should players who buy items from RMTs be treated as victims and not as offenders. Is this you putting in your plea for leniency before getting caught? The victims are all the subscribers who play the game within the rules and yet suffer the consequences of RMT. The people who fund RMT, who make it worthwhile and profitable, they are the offenders. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.12 12:22:00 - [15] Originally by: Whitehound The only thing that offends you is the thought process involved in comprehending the situation. So get your torch ready and join the lynch mob. You will feel much better after some running and shouting. In fact, you will feel so good that you are not going to mind it when CCP does not ban thousands of players after all. Do you want to bet? Au contraire, I fully comprehend the topic. What I fail to understand is how you can take the stance you do in light of you self proclaimed mastery of the subject. It isn't even very complicated. The bottom line is that some people break the rules set down by CCP and others profit from it. My position is that those people who do not wish to abide by the rules should be excluded from participating in the game. Your position seems to be that they are somehow victims of circumstance and should be treated accordingly. I disagree. I'm not looking for a lynch mob, or mass bannings. However I am quite happy for CCP to investigate anyone who appears on a list such as the one in this thread and to ban them permanently if they believe RMT has occured. If I appeared on a list like this I would encourage CCP to investigate the claims as I have nothing to hide. More than that, I would have no issue with CCP making the results of any such investigation public. In fact I would prefer that they did. You, however, seem like a man with something to hide. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.12 13:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon However I am quite happy for CCP to investigate anyone who appears on a list such as the one in this thread and to ban them permanently if they believe RMT has occured. ... and so shall all be banned permanently (and because one is not allowed to burn them alive). While you are a lynch mob is CCP not the Spanish Inquisition. It is their EULA and they decide if they apply its rules. It is not us. All you really write when you say "Break the rules, get the consequence" is that you understand the EULA, but not its application. What if the entire player base breaks a rule in the EULA? You think CCP will shut down their game? Is this how you see the EULA? I made made no comment on how CCP should enforce their EULA, I only stated that I am happy for them to do so, up to and including permanent banning for RMT. The worst possible outcome for an innocent person on that list is no investigation, because then there is no way for them to clear their name, is there? I'm sure if your name was on there you would also want CCP to investigate and clear you, right? As your name had already appeared on a public list, and so was already tarnished, you would want the outcome of any investigation to be made public, right? And you would want all the scumbuckets you had been associated with to be punished, right? Ignore the fact that in this case the list is about RMT. Do you think CCP should investigate accusations of cheating? Do you think that cheaters should be punished? Dp you think that, in order to protect the integrity of the game, CCP should be able to choose any appropriate punishment, up to and including permanent account bans? Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.12 14:53:00 - [17] Edited by: Avon on 12/03/2011 14:53:35 Originally by: Whitehound It does not matter what I think. First sensible thing you have posted. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.12 15:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Grog Barrel Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon Do you think that cheaters should be punished? Where there is no victim there is no crime. If no damage is being done and no victim can be found then no punishment shall occur, even when an act is against the law. Calling BS, but for the sake of enlightenment, where come this from? It is probably the defence he is going to try and use when he gets caught speeding in his Ferrari 9000 GTFO. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.12 16:12:00 - [19] Edited by: Avon on 12/03/2011 16:15:06 Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon It is probably the defence he is going to try and use when he gets caught speeding in his Ferrari 9000 GTFO. No. I just do not think that cheating should be punished. Why gets to decide what forms of cheating are okay, you? If I duped a couple of trillion ISK that would be okay? Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.13 20:56:00 - [20] Edited by: Avon on 13/03/2011 20:56:58 Originally by: Whitehound It is about cheating and it is a principal that one does not punish when there is no victim. You mean principle? The principal is the boss of you in your school. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.13 21:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Hecatonis Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: PsychoBabe Argument won right there... if CCP would indeed use any of these funds lost to RMTers on this ground breaking idea of beer in pizza they have my full support. No. It is about cheating and it is a principal that one does not punish when there is no victim. You only understand half of what is being written here. If you cheat then you it does not automatically need a punishment. This is the part you had to understand, but you failed. Originally by: Whitehound's post translated wave arms wildly using the same flawed argument the victim is CCP in lost revenue, the victim are the miners who get pushed out of the profession because they can compete with bots, the victims are the people who play the markets because the value of ISK drops when it is being flooded into the market. the victims are the players have have their CPU allocation used up by bots that bring nothing to the game other then cheep isk. that money played by others could have played for almost 2700 other accounts through PLEX for ISK transfers. ban 2700 bots, get that money to CCP instead and they still brake even. no doom and gloom about servers closing the game ending. all we would get is a player driven economy, more CPU power for real players, and a game with less bots. this is why your argument is flawed, there is no down side. get over it. you lost. He has already agreed that people can be punished where there is no victim, as in speeding tickets being issued even if there is no other offence, because it acts as a deterrent. He has also conceded that CCP are a victim of RMT. The guy is running circles around himself - it's funny. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.13 21:20:00 - [22] Edited by: Avon on 13/03/2011 21:21:02 Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon He has already agreed that people can be punished where there is no victim, as in speeding tickets being issued even if there is no other offence, because it acts as a deterrent. He has also conceded that CCP are a victim of RMT. The guy is running circles around himself - it's funny. No. Speeding tickets are not a punishment but a fine. Speeding kills every year and it kills so many that the governments take fines for speeding as a pre-emptive measurement. You do not really want to start an argument over speeding by saying that it has no victims. If I do 40mph in a 30mph zone in the UK I get a fixed penalty fine and points added to my licence. It is a criminal offence. Speeding doesn't in itself kill anyone. Motorways which have a 70mph speed limit have less fatal accidents than 40mph zones in the UK. Airliners, which are 10x faster than cars have even less fatalities. If I do 100mph up a crowded motorway I may well cause an accident. If I do 100mph up an empty motorway at 3am I am very unlikely to have an accident. In both cases I would lose my driving licence for my criminal behavior. Victim or not I am punished for the crime. Your "everyone is punished because of the potential risk" is exactly why people who buy ISK should be banned; to protect "society" from the possible negative impact of their "illegal" actions. Just like the government decides what speed limits it feels are appropriate, so CCP decide what rules they consider appropriate. I agree with you that deterrence is a wonderful thing, and I am glad you have at last come around to agreeing that CCP should use it to fight RMT. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.13 21:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon It is a criminal offence. If it was a criminal offence then you would get arrested, brought in front of a court and punished. That can happen. The police have to right to offer a fixed penalty notice in order to avoid the case going to court, but they don't have to; and you can reject the notice and have your day in court if you so wish. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.13 21:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon That can happen. The police have to right to offer a fixed penalty notice in order to avoid the case going to court, but they don't have to; and you can reject the notice and have your day in court if you so wish. However, not paying a fine for speeding is not the same as speeding. There is so much to consider. I know why people love lynch mobs, they are soo much easier. Part VI of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. Section 89(1) of that Act: "A person who drives a motor vehicle on a road at a speed exceeding a limit imposed by or under any enactment to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence." Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.13 22:34:00 - [25] Edited by: Avon on 13/03/2011 22:36:44 Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 13/03/2011 22:04:40 Originally by: Avon Part VI of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. Section 89(1) of that Act: "A person who drives a motor vehicle on a road at a speed exceeding a limit imposed by or under any enactment to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence." It does not say that this person shall be punished, does it? Does it say what kind of an offence it is? Is it a criminal or a civil offence? Do you know? Punishments for offences under the Road Traffic Act are prescribed in the Road Traffic Offenders Act (and they are referred to as punishments). A prosecution under the Road Traffic Act would result in a criminal conviction. Acceptance of a fixed penalty notice is an admission of guilt and acceptance of the punishment, but avoids a criminal conviction (you have still broken the law, they just aren't going to prosecute you for it - if you think you are innocent you have to go to court. If you lose you get a criminal conviction). As speeding is a non-reportable offence it is not added to your criminal record and do not need to declare the conviction; except where full disclosure is required by law (applying for a job with children for example). So yes, in the UK speeding is a criminal act which you will be punished for (victim or not). Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.13 22:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 13/03/2011 22:46:32 Originally by: Avon So yes, in the UK speeding is a criminal act which you will be punished for (victim or not). I am pretty sure speeding has got its victims. We've been over this. Speeding can have victims, but punishment is given victim or not. The punishment is a deterrent. If speeding has hard enough consequences less people will do it, meaning less potential victims. If people knew that not only could they be banned for using RMT sites, but that banning was the most likely punishment, it would act as a better deterrent than your "they didn't hurt anyone, leave them alone" stance. And anyway, in the same way that you said losing your driving licence is not a punishment, someone losing their account wouldn't be a punishment either, would it? Afterall, everything belongs to CCP, right? You can't have it both ways. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.13 23:06:00 - [27] Edited by: Avon on 13/03/2011 23:06:18 Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon We've been over this. Speeding can have victims, but punishment is given victim or not. No. You tried to use speeding as an example for an act that does not have victims, and this is where you are wrong. You picked the example, not me. Not at all. I gave examples of when speeding has no victims - I suggest you re-read the post and try to take it in. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.13 23:19:00 - [28] Originally by: Whitehound Are you now going to tell me that the people who supposedly bought from illegitimate source are killing people in the streets? Of course not. They are doing it in space. Are you saying that the only crimes that should be punished are ones where people get killed in the streets? Is that what you think? Really? Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.14 17:55:00 - [29] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Rodj Blake Read what I wrote. There should be an investigation before anyone is banned. And why does it need an investigation of a list full of player names? To ensure all their associated accounts get banned too. Seems reasonable. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.14 18:08:00 - [30] Originally by: Whitehound The EULA is also not a set of rules but an agreement. Part of that agreement is accepting their list of rules. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.14 18:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon Part of that agreement is accepting their list of rules. You accept the terms and conditions, not a set of rules. You might want to double check what you agreed to mate. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.14 18:26:00 - [32] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon Part of that agreement is accepting their list of rules. You accept the terms and conditions, not a set of rules. You might want to double check what you agreed to mate. They call it terms, but at the very end do they refer to it as rules, too. The point still is that for anything to become accepted it needs to be justifiable. In games, which can have nonsensical rules does this not apply. Originally by: TOS As an Eve Online subscriber, you must observe and abide by the rules of conduct and policies outlined below, as well as the End User License Agreement. Failure to comply with these regulations can result in the immediate termination of your account and you will forfeit all unused access time to the game. No refunds will be given. Originally by: Whitehound The point still is that for anything to become accepted it needs to be justifiable Nope, all they need to do is get you to click a button which states that you accept the rules, which you did. If you don't like them, don't agree to them, don't play. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.14 18:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Tippia Quite the opposite. You do not get banned for what you did, ... You do get banned for what you did. If it says that harassment is not allowed then you get banned, because you harassed someone, not because there is a rule telling you not to. If there was no rule you wouldn't get banned for harassment though. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.14 18:43:00 - [34] Originally by: Whitehound If there was no rule can they still ban you regardless of the existence of such a rule. So you agree that there is no issue with CCP banning people that appear on an RMT list? Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.14 21:03:00 - [35] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Tippia Since they break the rules, they will get banned for breaking the rules. Because they broke the rules. What they did was rule-breaking, which makes them subject to the rule that breaking the rules get you banned. No. You can get banned, and because of what you did. Not because it was written in the EULA. The EULA only describe several cases, but the list is not said to be complete nor do all the rules describe exactly what you need to do to get banned. They are pretty clear about RMT though, aren't they? Originally by: Ban policy Severe offences may result in an immediate ban without warning; however. warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player: ò a. Buys in-game goods or services for real world currency through an online auction site or any other venue. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.15 18:25:00 - [36] Originally by: Whitehound Most, like you, want their lynch mob. You do not give a crap about the people who are accused here. At least we would grant the the courtesy of a CCP investigation which could possibly clear their name. You would deny them that, damning them to a life of guilt by association. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.15 18:53:00 - [37] Edited by: Avon on 15/03/2011 18:55:23 Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon You would deny them that, damning them to a life of guilt by association. You are joking, right? Are you telling me now that you do not think they are guilty? I thought you were one of the lynch mob people. So what are they to you? Guilty until proven innocent or guilty because you say so? I was commenting on the fact that some have already suffered in-game just because they have appeared on this list. Without an investigation by CCP they will be presumed to be guilty. I'm not saying that they are or not - what I am saying is that if I appeared on that list you can bet your bottom dollar I would be demanding a full and open investigation of the allegations made against me. In Eve all you have is your reputation. The list is out there and the reputation of the people on it has been tarnished (like it or not, that is human nature). If they are guilty they should be banned. If they are innocent the should be cleared. If there isn't enough evidence they should go unpunished (not-proven under Scottish law) That is why they should be investigated. I don't understand why you would be opposed to that, unless you are worried that you would somehow get caught up in the investigations. Added for clarity: I'm not saying that CCP should publish the results of individual cases, just ban the cheaters and make a blanket statement to that effect. If people aren't banned after that then their innocence will be presumed whether they were innocent or not-proven. Retro sig
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.15 20:21:00 - [38] Originally by: Whitehound I will meet you half way: everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Guilty then? Proof has been provided and no defence has been made. You may say it is terrible proof, but it still outweighs the defence. I don't think you really understand what the presumption of innocence is. Retro sig

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