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Angus Torg
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Posted - 2005.02.02 08:14:00 -
[1]
The Skill 'Trajectory Analysis' has an effect on your Accuracy Fallof. But what does that mean for you shooting capabilities? How does the Accuracy Fallof effect your shot?
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Shinca
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Posted - 2005.02.02 09:32:00 -
[2]
Falloff guide
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(\_/)
(X.x)
(> <) WTB cookbook with bunny recipes |
Drango T'Klar
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Posted - 2005.02.02 14:52:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Drango T'Klar on 02/02/2005 14:55:57
Just basicaly means after a certain distance the hit accuracy starts to decrease. As your ship has to analyse where the enemy will be when your shot hits him. Like planes in WW2 had to shoot in front of their targets to hit. This also decreases when the velocity of yourself and the enemy increases. Anything with a projectile including Rails have an accuracy falloff. Energy weapons not so much.
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Keva
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Posted - 2005.02.03 20:09:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Drango T'Klar
Edited by: Drango T'Klar on 02/02/2005 14:55:57
Just basicaly means after a certain distance the hit accuracy starts to decrease. As your ship has to analyse where the enemy will be when your shot hits him. This also decreases when the velocity of yourself and the enemy increases. Anything with a projectile including Rails have an accuracy falloff. Energy weapons not so much.
Wrong. Maybe you should read the guide also.
There are 2 SEPERATE factors to determine a hit
1) range
2) tracking
essentiall for ever shot their are to hit checks. first one based on range. then on based on tracking. you must "pass" both to hit the target.
tracking is determined by relative speeds, sig of targets, and tracking of guns. It has nothing to with this skill or falloff distance
Range:
you ship hits 100% of the time at range 0 to optimal. then it starts decreasing. at optimal + falloff it is about 50% chance to hit. at optimal + 2x falloff it is about 0. past that you simply can't hit.
So since this skill boosts your falloff stat it gives you a larger range where you aren't 100% chance to hit but have a 99.9% to 0.01% depending on distance.
Most pilots start engaging at optimal + falloff because you have about a 50% chance to hit.
Remember even if you have a 100%, 80% or 50% chance to hit based on range you still need to pass the tracking check which can either be anything from 100% to 0% depending on the trannsversal speed of the target, sig radius, and tracking of your guns.
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JackD UP
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Posted - 2005.02.03 22:40:00 -
[5]
I was wondering why my guns fail to hit the target when I get to close?
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pardux
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Posted - 2005.02.03 23:59:00 -
[6]
Originally by: JackD UP
I was wondering why my guns fail to hit the target when I get to close?
tracking and transversal velocity keep the transversal velocity low and you can hit with a 1400mm at 2km 
Fluffy carebear
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(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Drango T'Klar
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Posted - 2005.02.04 18:11:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Keva
Originally by: Drango T'Klar
Edited by: Drango T'Klar on 02/02/2005 14:55:57
Just basicaly means after a certain distance the hit accuracy starts to decrease. As your ship has to analyse where the enemy will be when your shot hits him. This also decreases when the velocity of yourself and the enemy increases. Anything with a projectile including Rails have an accuracy falloff. Energy weapons not so much.
Wrong. Maybe you should read the guide also.
There are 2 SEPERATE factors to determine a hit
1) range
2) tracking
essentiall for ever shot their are to hit checks. first one based on range. then on based on tracking. you must "pass" both to hit the target.
tracking is determined by relative speeds, sig of targets, and tracking of guns. It has nothing to with this skill or falloff distance
Range:
you ship hits 100% of the time at range 0 to optimal. then it starts decreasing. at optimal + falloff it is about 50% chance to hit. at optimal + 2x falloff it is about 0. past that you simply can't hit.
So since this skill boosts your falloff stat it gives you a larger range where you aren't 100% chance to hit but have a 99.9% to 0.01% depending on distance.
Most pilots start engaging at optimal + falloff because you have about a 50% chance to hit.
Remember even if you have a 100%, 80% or 50% chance to hit based on range you still need to pass the tracking check which can either be anything from 100% to 0% depending on the trannsversal speed of the target, sig radius, and tracking of your guns.
Ok did I not just say that?????? read what I say nOOb. I just put it in simplified form. You can look at stats and read guides allday but if you dont know the way your ship handles and how your guns perform in real combat situations it's all academic.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.02.04 22:04:00 -
[8]
Edited by: X'Alor on 04/02/2005 22:05:38
no the skills do not influence each other too much on the far end......they pretty much just increase your far end capabilities BUT there is an adherant problem with the "affect" using short range ammo's has on your guns.
almost NOBODY and I do mean NOBODY from the player base agree's with me on this except like 2 people that I know of in all of EVE. Which i'm good with cuz no one will change my opinion as a player side affect. this is a math based equation to hit and it breaks down the closer to target due to guns tracking speeds and movement of target. FACT
the problem with this current gun set up isn't what happens at optimal range and beyond but what happens on the NEAR side.
the problem with any of those graphes that say guns can hit from 0km to optimal is a load holy horse puup. malarky. pupu does not compute or make sense AT ALL.
Why .....cuz those graphes are base on hitting staionary targets at the guns optimal without ammo bonuses or penalties applied(I say penalties for a reason you'll see why in a bit). those graphes do not take tracking into account and your target orbiting at certain ranges and speeds. that is simply a base value with no skills applied to give a basic idea of gun capability.
tracking capabilities having the biggest aspect on weather or not you can hit a "MOVING TARGET". that simple and fact and those graphes do NOT even apply the biggest aspect of what controls an accurate hit. the damn tracking does.
Movement people ..... movement throws those graphes right in the circular file.
Now just for agruement sake we will call this gun that i will use for explaining the "hybrid artiller blaster projectile railgun laser" man I want one them ones..... in the modulated modal neutron repeating prototype model
we'll say it has a base optimal of 40km standard with no other skills. it base tracking is set up to hit and track at its base optimal of 40km. as a target gets closer than 40 km ..... the tracking capabilities break down the guns affectiveness. no matter what ammo is used. as a ship gets closer inside optimal and orbits it causes tracking to break down the gun affectivness inside it's intended optimal is crap. FACT. All guns are this way now.....undisputed fact.
this is where the ammo problem comes into it.
now you can totally gimp this gun even more by using the most affective and hardest hitting shortest range ammo due to the range penalty of all strong ammo types. why ..... cuz your "forcing" the gun to try and track inside where it's not intended to. the tracking wasn't intended to track at that much of a range nerf.
In order for our ammo types to work more accurately at shortened ranges.......
they(CCP) have to give shorter range ammo a damage increase to help offset this tracking penalty you get for using shorter range ammo. you are forcing a gun to try and hit where it doesn't want to...... that doesn't mean it ever will without additional help weather it be skill based help or module help.
now we got a skill that increases tracking speed.
train that to lvl 5 and now that base 40km gun can now track and hit hard at 30km even though it's optimal was set to hit at 40km because you've increase the tracking speed of the gun with skill.
now at this point you can start decreasing your ammo range types because you've increased base tracking speed to allow it to track there.
well this also has the same affect but opposite on long side.
gun built to track at 40km, add a weaker longer range ammo type to increase range to 60km optimal and now you in essence boosted your tracking capabilities because a gun doesn't have to track as fast at longer ranges. so in ensence you will make a gun that more "accurate at range" due to it not needing to be tracking at base 40km value. you should get more consistant hits and less misses at longer range than base.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.02.04 22:06:00 -
[9]
the farther under it's base range the less accurate the gun will be due to the ammo decreasing the range at which it can hit but not adjusting the tracking speed for it to hit there.
there is an adherant problem with the ammo and the "affect" decreasing optimal range has on your accuracy. That is no if's and's but's all due to TRACKING and TRACKING SPEED which those graphes ALLLLLLL omit. It is a math equation...... what good is it to only add in half the equation.... tracking and speed of target have to be taken into account and are not on those graphes. FACT.
Again this is my opinion on the AFFECT it has and you players can say what you wish but no DEV has ever commented on that or told me to shut it cuz I'm so far off base here. closer the target the faster the tracking speed NEEEEEEEDS to be. that is fact and currently the way it's set up.
i personally think that allllll ammo types hould have a tracking bonus/penalty added as well because of this limiting factor that our tracking speeds have on the near side affect.
for example ..... two extremes, radio crystal and multifreq crystal.
the radio has the farthest range and doesn't need to have the tracking of the base gun value to hit there. so the radio crystal would have the biggest tracking PENALTY added to it.
Now multifreq is the shortest range crystal and it forces a gun to try and hit where it can do it at base tracking speed. the shortest range ammo should have the biggest tracking BOOST added to it to make it have the same comparable "accuracy" that the radio has at it's range.
yes this is my strong heart felt issue(stems from the sharpshooter skill and accuracy falloff) sharp shooter skill at lvl 5 increases your optimal range, thus a gun focuses farther out at base value. if it focuses farther out then when I reduce it farther in to hit at same range i was previously then I'm forcing it to be less accurate due to the ammo range penalty and tracking not being boosted to hit there. I will have to adjust my optimal attack range farther out to have the same affect "accuracy wise"
All due to tracking speed of a gun not adjusting and staying a fixed value......because of that. it makes this a fact and how it works. I don't care what ANY of them graphes show cuz it's not the full equation and is total crap.
Argue and say what you want but tracking is the final most important factor involved around accuracy of a gun no matter what range no matter what ammo.
Now lets throw sharpshooter into this. 5% increase in optimal if i recall correctly. at lvl 5, our gun above no has a base optimal of 50KM. now with motion prediction lvl 5 it allowed the base gun to track down to 30km but if you increase the optimal then it has to use an ammo to hit at 30km but yet due to the increased range it only has tracking capabilities to track down to 40km and you can't hit at 30 as affectively.
If any of you can get a DEV or GM to actually post and comment about this.......I'd love to see the comment. I've been trying for over 1 year.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.02.05 02:12:00 -
[10]
wow. did I spew all that crap. someone has entirely toooooo much time to do nothing at work.
basically in the equation to hit a moving target, tracking has a serious problem when it is a fixed variable.
any gun in eve has a base optimal and tracking where the tracking is fast enough to handle it hitting at it's base optimal and a bit below. anytime it is hitting a target over it's optimal .....it will have more tracking than needed so it becomes ultra accurate.
all guns will be more accurate using less damaging ammo and less accurate using more damaging ammo due to tracking being fixed number.
it's a must no matter your skill lvl or your ammo type, it has the same "affect" for all of us. the gun still has the same tracking speed through out it's entire range which totally gimps all guns when using their shortest range ammo.
I'm really surprised nobody poored gas all over me this time. It might not be as bad on some guns as others but it still has this affect to some extent. not sure if that's the way it was intended.
Still would love to see a DEV comment or whoever is incharge of guns now.
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.02.05 05:53:00 -
[11]
Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 05/02/2005 05:59:14
Originally by: X'Alor
That is no if's and's but's all due to TRACKING and TRACKING SPEED which those graphes ALLLLLLL omit. It is a math equation...... what good is it to only add in half the equation.... tracking and speed of target have to be taken into account and are not on those graphes. FACT.
Aight, the reason noone agrees with you is because you are completely, 100%, incorrect.
Those graphs that you speak of? They were done with a certain amount of transverse - the graph being used as the basis for the megapulse thread was in fact done with 100 m/s of transverse velocity. When you say that they were done with 0 transverse, instead of FACT, you should write FICTION.
Tracking is measured in radians per second. Do you know what a radian is? It is a measure of the arc of a circle.
Lets say hypothetically, that the tracking will allow you to hit something that is moving a relative 5 degrees (I use degrees and not radians because I think it is clearer) per second around your ship. If your target is 100m away from you, then that ship is moving faster then 5 degrees per second relative to you if it has a transverse above 8.75m/s. If that ship is 10k away from you, then it is moving faster then 5 degrees per second relative to you if it has a transverse above 875m/s. If a ship at 10k is moving 8.75m/s, then it is only moving .05 degrees relative to your ship. See how something that is closer is much harder to hit, since your weapon tracking is based on the arc of a circle?
See the point? That is why hitting ships that are closer to you is harder. It is completely independant of optimal range. Tracking is measured by an angle of a circle that the gun can track. It does not matter what the radius (optimal) of the circle is.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.02.07 20:09:00 -
[12]
EPIC..... that's great gotta disagree but confirm what i said with math. nice...... talk about make me smile.
so your saying I'm wrong (I can handle that but never seen them graphes state with transversial speeds) but reinforcing the idea that I said as a target gets closer it in "essence moves faster" as an argument as to WHY i'm wrong is silly. That's exactly what i said.
transversely speaking of coarse being we are talking about orbits.
So if the gun tracking speed is a fixed variable.
what happens.
It breaks down at closer ranges due to the closer range making the transversial speed increase even if the ship is traveling at same speed. You and I agree there and that's exactly what I said. I would think it's somewhat proportionate......
cut range in half = increase tranversial speed by 2x not sure not a mathmatician. you wanna talk about how to rebuild a close ratio cycle transmission, or better yet a harley transmission......i'm good there
so if tracking speed is fixed and you put in an ammo that cuts a guns optimal in half in then you just severly limited that gun as to what it can hit because it doesn't get any tracking speed bonus to hit at that new close range optimal........ and you even agree that an object orbiting at a closer range goes faster transversely and a gun will conversely need higher tracking rates at closer ranges in order to hit and have the same "accuracy" that it does at base optimal.
thanks for backing me up there and proving it with math.
but disagree that it doesn't affect accuracy.
that's priceless.
the tracking speed on the gun is fixed. the tracking speed needed to track objects moving at same speeds but at closer orbits is NOT as confirmed by this gentlemans math.
and each gun is set up with a base optimal and plenty of base tracking to hit at base optimal. due to tracking speed of the gun being a fixed variable......this MUST happen to an extent.... how great, I don't know....... not einstien.
in eve, any gun targeting and shooting at targets above and beyond that base optimal will in "essence" become more accurate due to not needing as much tracking speed to track objects orbiting beyond base optimal.
you even agree that farther objects orbiting have less transversial. thus a gun will be more accurate being it's got excess tracking capabilities at range with a fixed variable for tracking speed.
again this is a math equation so if base optimal is the = point then the opposite has to happen on near side.
why cuz gun tracking speed is fixed.
at half the base optimal with fixed rate of tracking, all guns in eve HAVE to become slightly less accurate due to fixed tracking speeds.
there is a difference and you even agree there but yet disagree how it affects guns with fixed tracking rates.
the problem with that is that sharpshooter skill increase your optimal. you increase base optimal range..... then you also increase the range at which you start to miss due to tracking being fixed and accuracy breaking down as you get closer.
well now as a target you do not have to get as close to have the same affect on my gun accuracy as you did before i trained that skill to lvl 5. If I didn't have sharpshooter lvl 5...... i would be ten times more accurate at 10km.
It has to happen that way. otherwise frigates and inties would be breakfast.
but the problem is not everyone wants to train sharpshooter to 5 because it does gimp your near side capability a bit and it's a requirement to use T2 guns.
Personally i want to specialize in near side accuracy and due to this skill and all gun skills optimizing range as a bonus ..... well to put it mildly, screw ya near side.
that's the way it has to work with gun tracking speed being a fixed variable.
I can deal with disagreement but not disagreement arguing the same fact.
Still get a DEV to comment?
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Darver Hazec
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Posted - 2005.02.09 18:06:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Darver Hazec on 09/02/2005 20:27:06
Edited by: Darver Hazec on 09/02/2005 18:07:50
X'Alor
I completely agree with your statement that a gun will have a better chance of scoring a hit with long to medium range ammo since this will put the optimal range (base optimal as you call it) for that gun at a distance that the tracking speed of the gun is designed (by CCP) to support.
I also completely agree with your statement that if you switch to short range hard hitting ammo you will put the optimal at a range that the guns tracking speed value is not designed (again by CCP) to support (i.e. less apparent accuracy since fewer shots will hit).
This is by design - some guns (with good optimal, bad tracking) are designed to hit a fast moving target at long range and will thus struggle getting hits on the same target (with same speed) at close range due to lack of tracking. Some guns (with bad optimal, good tracking) on the other hand are design to hit the same fast moving target at close range but will not be able to hit the target at long range.
So far we all agree (I hope :-)
Now I do not agree with your statement that training the sharpshooter skill will penalize the accuracy of the gun. The gun still have the same tracking speed and will have the same chance to hit a target moving at the same speed and range independent of your sharpshooter skill.
An example:
Lets say you are in a stationary cruiser and use a 250mm Railgun I (base optimal 24000, base tracking 0,023 rad/s or 0,145 deg/s) to hit another cruiser at a range of 24000 meters using lead ammo (which puts the optimal for this gun at 24000, its base value). The max transversal speed for this gun at 24000m is 552 m/s (max transversal = tracking speed * range, but the math is not important).
Now lets also say that the target is moving at a transversal speed of exactly 552 m/s. With this situation 100% of your shots will hit since you are within both the optimal range for the gun (and selected ammo) as well as within the tracking speed of the gun. If the target goes any faster or closes in (both cases means increased transversal speed) you will start to see a lesser hit percentage due to bad tracking.
If the target moves further away from you you will also start to see a lesser hit percentage due but this time due to the target range exceeding the optimal range.
You are in other words at the edge of the guns 100% hit envelope.
Now, magically you instantly gain 5 levels in the sharpshooter skill but everything else stays the same. The base optimal for the 250mm Rail I with sharpshooter Level 5 increases to 30000m and the tracking speed (as you pointed out) stays the same (0,023 rad/s).
According to your position you should now start to miss the target since base optimal for the gun has increased, which would according to your view increase the range where the gun start to miss due to the fixed tracking speed.
I say "Why?" The target is still moving at 552 m/s at 24000m and is still within the tracking speed of the gun. You still score 100% hits. The benefit of increased optimal range is that you now could replace the lead ammo with thorium (which with Sharpshooter level 5 now has a optimal range of 26250 m, compared to 21000 m without skills) and do more damage.
btw, How do you rebuild a Harley transmission? |
RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.02.09 22:18:00 -
[14]
Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 09/02/2005 22:27:51
Originally by: Darver Hazec
I say "Why?" The target is still moving at 552 m/s at 24000m and is still within the tracking speed of the gun. You still score 100% hits. The benefit of increased optimal range is that you now could replace the lead ammo with thorium (which with Sharpshooter level 5 now has a optimal range of 26250 m, compared to 21000 m without skills) and do more damage.
Yeah. Couldnt have said it better myself.
Tracking is independant of optimal. If you could hit at a range/transverse before, you can hit it after you train sharpshooter. By your logic, X'Alor, training sharpshooter improves your tracking and damage because it lets you hit farther with the short-ranged ammos. Same tracking, but better optimal. As you pointed out, more optimal does mean that you can shoot from farther away, meaning that you'll track better. Quote:
well now as a target you do not have to get as close to have the same affect on my gun accuracy as you did before i trained that skill to lvl 5.
Quote:
you even agree that farther objects orbiting have less transversial. thus a gun will be more accurate being it's got excess tracking capabilities at range with a fixed variable for tracking speed.
In fact, you seem to use the fact that guns get more accurate if they are shooting at something farther away in one line, and then a few lines later, claim that the opposite is true. Are you on drugs?
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Drunken Claptrap
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Posted - 2005.02.10 11:09:00 -
[15]
Okay, so how do I get to hit a frigate orbiting my BS at 7000m and around 600m/s with a mega pulse laser?
In other words, should I fit a different gun (just for the little critters) or is there a skill that might help?
Cheers
Draft Beer Not People |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2005.02.10 12:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Drunken Claptrap
Okay, so how do I get to hit a frigate orbiting my BS at 7000m and around 600m/s with a mega pulse laser?
In other words, should I fit a different gun (just for the little critters) or is there a skill that might help?
Cheers
It's called a webifier. And relies on the "I know what I'm doing" skill.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Drunken Claptrap
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Posted - 2005.02.10 13:54:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: Drunken Claptrap
Okay, so how do I get to hit a frigate orbiting my BS at 7000m and around 600m/s with a mega pulse laser?
In other words, should I fit a different gun (just for the little critters) or is there a skill that might help?
Cheers
It's called a webifier. And relies on the "I know what I'm doing" skill.
Lmao at my own stupidity ...never thought of that one m8!
Draft Beer Not People |
Aion Amarra
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Posted - 2005.02.10 15:05:00 -
[18]
Please do not forget that the size of the ship alters your chance of hitting as well. Guns hit big targets more often then far targets. I think the attribute of the ship that's used in this equation is the sig radius, but I'm not sure about that.
Quote:
Lets say you are in a stationary cruiser and use a 250mm Railgun I (base optimal 24000, base tracking 0,023 rad/s or 0,145 deg/s) to hit another cruiser at a range of 24000 meters using lead ammo (which puts the optimal for this gun at 24000, its base value). The max transversal speed for this gun at 24000m is 552 m/s (max transversal = tracking speed * range, but the math is not important).
In my opinion that paragraph makes it sound like the size of the ship makes no difference. It does. Don't ask me how it fits into the accuracy equation exactly, but the size of the ship alters your chance to hit.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.02.10 16:27:00 -
[19]
Edited by: X'Alor on 10/02/2005 16:30:10
Originally by: Darver Hazec
btw, How do you rebuild a Harley transmission?
nice post btw...... actually discussing this "sharpshooter affect" 
depends on how bad it is and what broke and if it's a big twin or a sporty tranny. if you gotta replace a bunch of gears and a shaft or two ........ you don't.
at that point your almost better off buying one of the million different aftermarket bolt right in and filler up with juice and go like hell trannies. basically all you gotta do there is line it up and tighten it.
done |
X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.02.10 16:39:00 -
[20]
"sharpshooter affect"(ironic being it's opposite of any true meaning of sharpshooter and braught on by training of the skill) ......... nice to see some people actually talking about it instead of just throwing cans of flaming gas about.
this "theory" on ingame "affect" is just that. I've been trying to get any DEV or GM to comment on this "affect" since I completed sharpshooter 5 about a year ago and never have gotten one single comment even when specifically asked by name. but whatever there.
looks like got a few people actually thinking about it a bit more. nice
it's an overall "accuracy" issue on the nearest side of any gun targeting, tracking, and hitting.
actually got a few of ya to agree a bit there and actually back it up with math. Thanks.... I'm a mechanic not a mathmatician. I'm amazed by some the absolute honest mathmaticians that play this game..... how some of them crunch numbers and work back to get even close to base equations in the game is amazing to me in all honesty
I noticed it upon completing lvl 5 of the sharp skill.
at the time i was using a tach beam apoc and multi's religiously and noticed that i was "missing" targets like 5km farther out using multi crystals where before that skill finished was hitting.
I'm thinking to myself.... boy that's odd all that changed was lvl 5 of that skill. complete misses where not minutes before I was hitting and wrecking with multi's. now I need a tracking enhancer to hit cruisers down to 35km with a tach beam where as at sharpshooter lvl 4 I could hit cruisers without a tracking enhancer down to 35. Strange ..... now why would that be such?
so those of you stating just drop another lvl of ammo...... you can't in that situation.
riddle me that?????? nothing changed. tactics didn't, same cruiser targets, setup was same..... the only changed was completing sharp to 5.
agreed that even tho increasing optimal that a gun "should" track where it previously did. And it will to an extent but it will have to be slightly less "accurate" being the sharpshooter skill moves the = sign in that equation a bit.
You have a new "base optimal" from where this all starts. Now to hit the same target at the same range you need to reduce your ammo farther down and some of you even state reducing range reduces accuracy(which it does by design) and now being you have a farther base optimal you have to reduce farther to hit the same target at same previous range.
The more you have to reduce range from base optimal via ammo selection to hit the intended target will decrease that "accuracy" a tiny bit each lvl of ammo. it's offset by the decreasing range ammo gets a damage bonus.
People equate accuracy to damage for some reason and I don't know why. people see more damaging hits so they think nothing of accuracy...... must be accurate, I'm doing more damage
if your base optimal is extended then so will your near side start to miss point as well. it might be a tiny bit but it will change a bit
i keep using multi's as the example being that's what i found it with.
simple example.
standard base optimal 40km ..... multi crystal optimal 20km
add sharpshooter lvl 5
base optimal now is 50km with multi it's 25km
your extending your base range, tracking value stays the same, it has to extend your start to miss nearside point a tiny bit.
it has to ...... your stretching everything out.
simple way to combat this so called "affect" with the sharpshooter skill. give the sharpshooter skill a second bonus of 2% bonus to tracking speed per lvl and this "affect" is gone and the sharpshooter skill will actually have the affect it should.
sharpshooters by definition imply overall accuracy as well as accuracy at range. a sharp shooter doesn't just accell at accuracy at ranged targets......he is ten times more accurate at close range as well.
you shouldn't be gimped on the close side of your hitting range due to training a skill that's titled "sharpshooter" and that's exactly what happens near side when training this skill.
it extends your base optimal, it extends your long range optimal, it extends your short range optimal ....... on that same note it has to extend your near side start to miss to some extent as well. if it does it one point in that equation it has to do it at all points in that equation equally.
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garishwinner
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Posted - 2005.02.10 17:32:00 -
[21]
x-alor is absolutly right
try it in real life shoot at a stationary target assuming you know wat ur doing you will hit the target evry time. now start making that target move around you, much harder to hit but still do able. now keep that same speed the same and have that target move around you at the same speed but at a foot in front of you. most of u will fail to hit the target now move the target back ten meters and have it orbit you at the same speed again you will start hitting evry single time
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MinorFreak
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Posted - 2005.02.11 07:17:00 -
[22]
Better Guide (and cuts out the hyperventilating)
X'lar. dude, seriously, go outside and play with the other kids. you need fresh air.
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Best darned links ingame and out (backup) |
Darver Hazec
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Posted - 2005.02.11 10:24:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Aion Amarra
Please do not forget that the size of the ship alters your chance of hitting as well. Guns hit big targets more often then far targets. I think the attribute of the ship that's used in this equation is the sig radius, but I'm not sure about that.
Quote:
Lets say you are in a stationary cruiser and use a 250mm Railgun I (base optimal 24000, base tracking 0,023 rad/s or 0,145 deg/s) to hit another cruiser at a range of 24000 meters using lead ammo (which puts the optimal for this gun at 24000, its base value). The max transversal speed for this gun at 24000m is 552 m/s (max transversal = tracking speed * range, but the math is not important).
In my opinion that paragraph makes it sound like the size of the ship makes no difference. It does. Don't ask me how it fits into the accuracy equation exactly, but the size of the ship alters your chance to hit.
You are correct, I deliberately left out the bit about the effect of different sig radius of the gun and target to simplify. Notice though that in the example I used a cruiser sized weapon to hit a cruiser (= small to no difference in sig radius) so the example is mostly correct.
However I was apparently wrong on a more serious point. If your target moves at the maximum transversal speed (at a certain range) that the tracking of the gun can support (i.e. 552m/s at 24000 in my example) you will not hit 100%. You will hit 50% of all shots. This is according to the dev post found here:Dev blog
Quote:
Ignoring signature radius, a turret with a 0.1 Radians per Second tracking speed will have a 50% chance of hitting a target moving at 0.1 Radians per second angular velocity.
This might actually explain X'Alor's experience. Since you only have 50% of hitting a target within the tracking envelope of the gun rather than 100% (as I previously thought) the "lesser hits" effect of the Sharpshooter skill that X'Alor notices might simply be caused by a streak of bad luck
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.02.11 16:16:00 -
[24]
Edited by: X'Alor on 11/02/2005 16:21:05
Not sure what caused it. That's why i been trying to get some you other math wiz's to maybe figure something out for over the past year being the DEV's won't comment. usually ends up with some idiot posting crap about go play with others and stupid s***less crap like that as opposed to a civil discussion about it.
I can confirm it was not bad luck.
At the time, my real life friend and i were our own 2 man corp, we got a network setup so we can same room pilot two accounts. we were both about the same spot gunnery wise and he was training sharp 5 at same time.
we were both flying tach beam apocs very similar set ups and were avidly NPC hunting together more so than missioning at the time.
we were melting cruisers at about 36km religiously with almost exact same apoc setups, i mean we'd literally npc hunt for like 12 hour stints on weekends so we had quite a fair amount of time involve in testing and checking this out.
All i can figure is we were right on the bubble point where tracking speed of THAT gun breaks down and you start to miss. Every gun has that point. It appeared that the range bonus from completing the skill was also applied to that point as well which thru my guns just far enough out of whack to miss every shot at that same range. only a couple few KM which is coincidentaly about the same distance for the bonus of the sharp skill on tach beam base value. kinda odd.
he finished sharp 5 a few days later and sure enough, he had to readjust his range as well.
I know i know ...... waaa i had to move my tactics and ideal range of engagement by 2 KM waaaaa waaaaa. that's not the issue here so lets keep the omgwtfbbq comments out of it.
Everything in Eve is somewhat set up on a give and take relationship. in order to get a bonus or edge one place you usually have to give up something else. I think CCP has covered that aspect beautifully throughout all races of ships.
well I have a feeling that relationship exist with this skill as well with the way it's calced. I've asked a few times if we could have a dev post the equation that sharp skill is based on with no luck.
sharpshooter is great on the far side and max range side....... but I have the notion that it comes at the expense of the near side hitting capability and accuracy a tiny bit each lvl of the skill. it's part of that give take relationship.
in my mind somewhat backed up by my expeience here and the numbers that changed but not knowing the actual equation that the sharpshooter skill is based on ..... i couldn't say.
the nearest thing i came up with is that range equation is applied at each point from 0.1km to max range km. so if that point at which the tracking breaks down and you start to miss is at 20km then that range equation governing the sharpshooter skill has to be applied at each point from 0.1km to it's new max range for each lvl of the skill equally. so it has to apply to that 20km point which will move that just a tiny bit farther out for each lvl of the skill. the skill doesn't just add range...... it seems to more like have the affect of stretching it's effectiveness throughout it's broader range.
All points in essence stretched from 0.1km to new max range. Closer to 0.1km = almost no affect and 90km would bring the biggest affect.
For those actually checking into this and crunching numbers and have a half a brain to actually discuss this, thanks.
for those of you that got nothing better but wtfomgbbq, here's a bit of new york atmosphere for you PH*** off. ..l.,
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Damojdred
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Posted - 2005.02.12 12:20:00 -
[25]
I've been reading as much as I can on this, and I have to say X'lor's conclusions ring fairly true to me.
I also note with a certain wry smile that CCP don't touch the depths of their combat engine publicly...
...with so much as a 400au mining barge pole.
Interesting considering the MMO demogaph consists heavily of the wargaming/penspaperdice/exposed engine types, and it's somewhat traditional to lay the rules on the table for those inclined to pay attention (even Blizzard did that for Starcraft!)
The principle of the sharpshooter skill has probably just been poorly implemented as an extension of optimal range, rather than as a post-calc adjustment, or even just calcing twice and pickign the best result (too clumsy obviously but i mention it to illustrate). Smells like simple human oversight.
This leads me happily back to a conclusion that crops up rather often with complex systems you cant control or a 2000ú TV; one shouldn't look too closely because imperfections you can do little about will only serve to **** you off.
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Damojdred
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Posted - 2005.02.12 12:37:00 -
[26]
Argh, i just sat back thinking.
Given a target's range of X, and a given transvec, and the following:
{}-------------------|-----X--------------|------->
YOU OPT F/O
Even if you do extend the optimal range (making tracking the central factor, thus the initial worry)...
{}-------------------------X-----|---------|------->
YOU OPT F/O
...it's transvec is going to be er, 'more favourable' than your sub-optimal range perspective was previously.
If a hit is a function of <stuff>,trackign & transvec, then perhaps we don't have anything to worry about.
DAmn. I don't liek the way they did this at all. Hit/miss resolution should be done solely on the transvec. I fail to see why a range abstraction is needed; it's effect is implicit in the transvec of your target. If you wanna consider the issue of ammo moving faster or straighter, then that is surely a linear adjustment which can easily be made after, based on absolute range; not weird, poorly defined categories.
Somebody give CCP the batsignal.
Please?
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vanBuskirk
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Posted - 2005.02.13 22:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Drunken Claptrap
Okay, so how do I get to hit a frigate orbiting my BS at 7000m and around 600m/s with a mega pulse laser?
In other words, should I fit a different gun (just for the little critters) or is there a skill that might help?
Cheers
Yes there is, and I think it is called Motion Prediction. 5% increase in tracking speed per level. Tracking computers help too.
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"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent".
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.02.14 16:46:00 -
[28]
Edited by: X'Alor on 14/02/2005 17:12:34
Thanks for getting through the weekend without any flaming maltolf*****tails here.
If the sharpshooter skill is set up on this basic linear type of equation...... yes the "affect" nearside was an oversight and an ooooops. I can accept that.
But on the same note I do think it is just cause for help or possible adjustment. Hopefully CCP will see this and give it some thought IFFFFFF this is correct. till they reply and state anything about it....... it's all up in the air. Personally I think I hit a soft spot and they are scared.
Being it's a cause between the tracking of any gun/point a gun starts to miss/ a linear equation based range formula........ simplest solution to possibly change this nearside ingame "affect" is a simple slight tracking speed second bonus to the sharpshooter skill. 2% per lvl would probably be enough to help compensate for this "affect". I'm not sure how much is needed to offset the gimp being each gun is slightly different. The longest ranged guns exhibit the nearside gimp affect moreso than say a BLASTER but still there comes a point nearside where even blasters miss.
In order for this possible tracking speed second bonus...... the % tracking bonus would have to be enough to increase tracking so that the gun will still be as accurate as it was previously at it's unmodified optimal range.
BUT ........... on that same note
Be VERY VERY CAUTIOUS about using tracking computers and tracking enhancers for the obvious reason IF this "affect" is true as I'm suspect it is.
especially the low slot enhancer.
The mid slot computer tech 2 gets away with it being it has a 30% tracking bonus but the low slot is like 10% or just less if I recall.
The Problem: Both the tech two enhancer and the tech two computer increase RANGE optimal by 15% as well. So now even if you install one them to increase tracking for near side battle you now also have to reduce your ammo even farther than if you did sharpshooter skill to lvl 5 to effectively hit at same range or adjust your range to actually fit the new increased optimal range. they only boost tracking at the new optimal ...... if your still trying to hit a target at 20km ....... they don't work for crap...... especially the enhancer.
ultimately if you use one for near side tracking bonus, the 15% added range totally screws you there if tracking is not boosted enough to compensate for the added 15% range. IMO this falls exactly on the difference between a computer and an enhancer. the enhancer does not get enough tracking boost to compensate for the new 15% range bonus. the puter does.
it fails on the near side being the range was stretched yet again so far. combine a tracking enhancer/computer ....... plus sharpshooter lvl 5 = an added 40% range bonus. An enhancer or puter 2 is equivallent to 3 lvls of the skill. That thought just frightens the absolute heck outta me.
If this theory I have on sharpshooter bonus being set up in a linear value like it probably is, now if your target is still at 20km ....... your screwed unless you got motion prediction trained to lvl 10.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.02.15 17:33:00 -
[29]
wow almost 200 views since last post and not a single OMGWTFPWNBBQ. I'm surprised and impressed. I know some of you must be contemplating this with how many of ya keep reading.
Here's a question for all you think tankers and math whiz's.
Lets say it is linear and this is how it works on near side accuracy due to range bonuses. I think we'd all agree that this requires an adjustment if it is the case.
Keeping in mind sharpshooter 5 is a pre req for T2 guns.........
how do we address that for a possible fix? .......... that wouldn't be to hard to code into current game skills or items.
idea's I've come up with.
Sharpshooter skill itself: add a second bonus to tracking speed per lvl of skill being each lvl seems to extend this "affect" nearside. probably a minimal bonus here like 2%. at lvl 5 that's 10% bonus to tracking to cover a 25% bonus to range. not sure if that is fast enough to offset the affect 25% range bonus has on near side accuracy. Might need to be 3% bonus per lvl.
adjust a tracking bonus or penalty to the ammo: any ammo that reduces range from base would also get a slight increase in tracking bonus. Not sure the figure but I'm sure there is a corresponding tracking % boost compared to amount of % range decreased. Conversely any ammo that over ranges would need a slight tracking penalty per % range increase. Something like a 50% range decrease ammo would have a 25% tracking bonus. A 50% range increase would have a -25% tracking penalty. What happens nearside has to be opposite to the corresponding long range ammo to keep the same "accuracy affect"
that idea I think would have the affect of making accuracy of each gun consistant throught it's entire range regardless of ammo type but probably much harder to code. with tracking speed being a fixed value the shorter range ammo has to be slightly less accurate and longer range ammo is slightly more accurate with a linear equation currently.
The other would be to add another gunner skill completely. Say advance sharpshooter or advanced motion prediction and make sharpshooter lvl 5 a pre req for it being without sharpshooter 5 there is no reason to boost tracking to offset the nearside accuracy of the range bonus. If it's another skill to boost tracking....... might as well be 5% per lvl of skill like normal.
As far as mods go: fix the two we got and give us two more. If the range bonus is a linear equation. Then the tracking enhancers and tracking computers are not worth a squat for near side tracking and accuracy improvements due to the range bonus that one gets with the mods. The range bonus should be completely removed from any so called "tracking mod". There should be a complete different mod used for strictly ranged sniper setups that do strictly a range bonus being with a linear equation and fixed tracking a gun gets more accurate with a range bonus when over ranged at a target.
Don't you guys find it kinda strange that if I'm so far off base with this that some DEV would comment and tell me to shuv it in my hat and STFU. I mean I've only be on it for over a year and I'm sure they've read this before.
And i don't blame them, if this is the case of the near side affect then there is a serious flaw with their accuracy of ALLLLLL guns all brought on by a skill that they made lvl 5 a pre req for T2 guns but yet wrecks any use of them near side.
might actually be why projectile have always been so borked. Your combining a gun characteristic of being geared to be used in the overrange category but due to that guns range combined with the fastest ships(Ship speed = transvers velocity to some respect) and the fack they trying to get close and persoal with the target and forcing their guns to reduce range and loose accuracy and ultimately fail.
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Keva
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Posted - 2005.02.15 20:51:00 -
[30]
X'Alor I will try once again......
Optimal & Falloff DO NOT IN ANYWAY affect tracking.
There essentially are two calulcations involved to determine the hit %
Hit % = 0.5^(RangeFactor + TrackFactor)
The Range Factor
======================
if (range < optimal)
RangeFactor = 0
else
RangeFactor = (((range - optimal) / falloff)^e)
You may be wondering why factor gets bigger as targts gets further away. Remember the final hit % will be 0.5^factor. 0.5 raised to 0 is 100% (a guaranteed hit). As the factor get larger the chance to hit gets smaller. i.e at a factor of 1 you have a 50% chance to hit. At a factor of 2 you will have a 25% chance. At a factor of 3 you will have a 12.5%, at a factor of 4 you have a 6.25%.... etc.
Since when range is less than optimal you have a factor of 0 that results in a hit % of 100% (assumming a tracking factor of 0 also). Remember that skills that boost optimal or falloff have no negative effect on hit%. If your optimal is 28,000m you have a 100% hit chance at 1m,2m....27,999m, 28,000m. Now past optimal your chance decreases based on a factor of e (e is a mathimatical value). So at range = optimal + 1x falloff your hit % is aprox 50%. At optimal + 2x falloff you chance of hiting is aprox 1%. Past optimal + 2x falloff you can hit however the % rapidly gets to sub 1% making such shots useless.
Now you are going to say THAT'S BS. It is very hard to hit something orbiting me at 7,000m when my optimal is 28km. According to the above chart I should hit 100% of the time. Well the formula is hit% = 0.5^(range factor + trackFactor. So while the range factor may be 0 if the track factor is high you may have a very low hit%.
we need to look at trackFactor.
The Track Factor
===================
track factor = (weapon sig * target tVel) / (target sig * weapon tVel)^e
now the target sig, and weapon sig are easy to find (just look at the "show info"). The target tVel can be found from the combat overview. The weapon tVel needs to be computed.
Weapons tracking is given in radians so we conver that by wepon tVel = weaponTrack * range.
This is why it is easier to hit further away. Target tVel stays the same but as range increases the weapon tVel increases. So for every target speed there is a range where your weapon's tVel will exceed the target tVel.
Notice also that the relationship between the target sig & weapon sig affects the final output.
Example if you are using medium guns (125 sig) against
an interceptor 125 sig / 30 sig = 4.2
a frigate 125 sig / 50 sig = 2.5
a cruiser 125 sig / 125 sig = 1.0
a battleship 125 sig / 320 sig = 0.4
So even if you could get a battleship up to interceptor speeds it would still be 16x easier to hit the BS.
the final hit %
==================
hit% = 0.5^(trackingFactor + rangeFactor)
A final example
Quote:
You have a turret with a signature of 125, a tracking of 0.028, a range of 28,000m, and a falloff of 12,000m. The target is cruiser with a signature of 100, a tVel of 300, and a range of 20km.
So let's calculate the hit%
first range factor. this is simple range < optimal so range factor is 0.
second the track factor
we need the weapons tVel which is range * tracking
so weapon tVel = 20,0000 * 0.028 = 560m/s. That's well above our targets speed so we should have no problems.
tFactor = ((weapon sig * target tVel) / (target sig * weapon tVel))^e
tFactor = ((125 * 300) / (100 * 560))^e
tFactor = ((37,500) / (56,000))^e
tFactor = (0.669642857)^e
tFactor = 0.336196235
so final hit % is
hit% = 0.5 ^ (0 + 0.3362)
hit % = 79.22%
what can change this %:
if target increases range the hit% will go up until you hit optimal range, because the range factor is 0 for all ranges from 0 to optimal but the weapon tVel increases as range increases.
if target range goes past optimal then the hit% goes down as the range factor will rise.
if the target gets closer the hit% goes down because the weapon tVel drops as range drops.
if the target increases tVel the tracking factor goes up which brings hit % down.
(important note: using a mwd doesn't help as much as you might think. it raises the target sig by 500% which works against the target.)
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