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Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.15 15:02:00 - [1] There's a lot of fits going around out there that are just plain slow at running missions. I have tried many fits that came highly recommended but left producing less isk. I just want to dispel a few myths about mission running in a mach. 1. Yes, we know its the fastest BS in the game. Putting an AB on it is stupid in any scenario where it doesn't help you finish the mission faster. Sometimes a MWD is better, usually no (speed) booster is needed. Remember that while it's the fastest, it's the most agile also. Killing its align time when you have to go to another system is a waste of time. And there ARE missions where the AB is warranted. 2. 3 CCC's are great. Unless you have terribad skills and micromanagement you wont be able to pop anything in less volleys (assuming you follow the rest of the advice and use utility slots in the extra mid slots) with other rigs. 3. Any gist xlarge booster plus 2 hardeners should be enough for almost any mission. a 3rd hardener for the difficult sansha's missions will allow you to complete them easily. 4. lows = 4 gyro's + 3 trackers. Period. 5. Extra mid slots can be used for utility. 6. You don't need t2 guns on it, but you need enough DPS to forgo the 4th and 5th shield mods. About 700-750 (not including drones) should cut it. Meta 4's with faction ammo are great,republic fleet are best. 7. Republic fleet tracking enhancers are not necessary, but republic fleet gyro's are.
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.15 16:38:00 - [2] Originally by: Cipher Jones 1. Yes, we know its the fastest BS in the game. Putting an AB on it is stupid in any scenario where it doesn't help you finish the mission faster. Sometimes a MWD is better, usually no (speed) booster is needed. Remember that while it's the fastest, it's the most agile also. Killing its align time when you have to go to another system is a waste of time. And there ARE missions where the AB is warranted. ... then don't run your afterburner when you're about to start warping around. Problem solved!
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.15 17:15:00 - [3] Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Originally by: Cipher Jones 1. Yes, we know its the fastest BS in the game. Putting an AB on it is stupid in any scenario where it doesn't help you finish the mission faster. Sometimes a MWD is better, usually no (speed) booster is needed. Remember that while it's the fastest, it's the most agile also. Killing its align time when you have to go to another system is a waste of time. And there ARE missions where the AB is warranted. ... then don't run your afterburner when you're about to start warping around. Problem solved! So not using it takes up a slot, how does that solve the problem? I takes you longer to complete the mission. If you are using it it takes time to complete its cycle before you can turn it off and gain align time. Still takes longer. The way to solve the problem is to use it on missions where it makes them quicker to complete.
Alonzo Harris	Posted - 2011.03.15 18:10:00 - [4] Yes, I'd love taking on a group of rats sitting at 80km from me. At no point would burning AB closing in on that group, while attacking them, increase the dps on them and this surely would not affect overall completion time, oh no. Sitting still hitting at the edge of falloff is such a great idea... You DO know that the dps doubles if you close in from 80km to 50km, right?
Murtal Liven	Posted - 2011.03.15 18:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Cipher Jones Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Originally by: Cipher Jones snip ... then don't run your afterburner when you're about to start warping around. Problem solved! So not using it takes up a slot, how does that solve the problem? I takes you longer to complete the mission. If you are using it it takes time to complete its cycle before you can turn it off and gain align time. Still takes longer. The way to solve the problem is to use it on missions where it makes them quicker to complete. /facepalm Because waiting a whole 10 seconds for your AB to finish cycling just completely negates any speed bonus you get while traveling to an acceleration gate.
Denise Le'Slut	Posted - 2011.03.15 18:49:00 - [6] Edited by: Denise Le''*** on 15/03/2011 18:49:23* what's it with using faction ammo on the machariel? still recommended for L4s? with 4xRF gyros and 7x800s it's about 200k ISK per minute only for firing sure you still make more killing stuff, but isn't faction ammo on the mach severely cutting down profits? i'm looking to get into one soon, and i am wondering whether to use RF ammo or tech1. Thanks
Alonzo Harris	Posted - 2011.03.15 18:56:00 - [7] Using faction ammo on a Mach is ******ed, you use about 2-3k per mission and at over 1k/round that doesn't help your income much, especially not if, like the OP, you want to sit so deep in falloff you keep wasting ammo. Sure, you'll mission a bit faster but it's not worth it. If anything use barrage (assuming angel missions), this is much cheaper and gives you a much bigger increase in dps at longer ranges.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.15 20:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Alonzo Harris Yes, I'd love taking on a group of rats sitting at 80km from me. At no point would burning AB closing in on that group, while attacking them, increase the dps on them and this surely would not affect overall completion time, oh no. Sitting still hitting at the edge of falloff is such a great idea... You DO know that the dps doubles if you close in from 80km to 50km, right? Lol. It would be prudent to one shot the frigs and destroyers at that range obviously. Real men aggro the whole room. You do have to utilize strategy, obviously. However this is true of any fit and therefore goes without saying.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.15 20:25:00 - [9] Originally by: Alonzo Harris Using faction ammo on a Mach is ******ed, you use about 2-3k per mission and at over 1k/round that doesn't help your income much, especially not if, like the OP, you want to sit so deep in falloff you keep wasting ammo. Sure, you'll mission a bit faster but it's not worth it. If anything use barrage (assuming angel missions), this is much cheaper and gives you a much bigger increase in dps at longer ranges. It only hurts your income by a small percent unless you utterly fail at missioning, however. As mentioned in the above post you can minimize fighting in falloff quite easily. The only angel mission that puts groups initially out of falloff is "The Blockade", there's a group within falloff for all of the spawns except one. You use 2-3k on the longest missions. that costs 2.4 mil, and you make all of the LP you spent back in the mission, plus 19 mil extra in bounty and of course the salvage if you're into that. If you're rushing you use almost no ammo. WC4 Angels/Sansha. Fit a MWD, rush the first gate. Kill the 2 frigs in the second room and MWD to the next gate. Kill the group gaurding the heron, loot the crew. You just bought your ammo for the day in 10 minutes. There's a perfect example of when to use an AB/MWD (as staed in the OP). Even if you don't rush it it makes it much quicker.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.15 20:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Alonzo Harris Using faction ammo on a Mach is ****ed, you use about 2-3k per mission and at over 1k/round that doesn't help your income much, especially not if, like the OP, you want to sit so deep in falloff you keep wasting ammo. Sure, you'll mission a bit faster but it's not worth it. If anything use barrage (assuming angel missions), this is much cheaper and gives you a much bigger increase in dps at longer ranges. Using Faction ammo on a Mach is efficient from an isk/hour perspective. In the grand scheme of things...eah. Do what you prefer. But using RF rounds is by no means **ed. ùùùùù Originally by:** CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.

Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.03.15 20:56:00 - [11] Originally by: Cipher Jones 1. Yes, we know its the fastest BS in the game. Putting an AB on it is stupid in any scenario where it doesn't help you finish the mission faster. Sometimes a MWD is better, usually no (speed) booster is needed. Remember that while it's the fastest, it's the most agile also. Killing its align time when you have to go to another system is a waste of time. And there ARE missions where the AB is warranted. While I agree with the notion of just enough tank and a whole lot of gank, the afterburner helps you apply DPS to rats. You have spare mids and the only other thing you could put in the spare mids to help your mission completion time is a target painter(s) which are fairly annoying to deal with. You lose DPS as stuff is farther from you (and a lot of non angel missions have rats 40-70km away from you), so sitting like a turd and lolololol shooting ACs at everything is not the most efficient way to go about it. And the agility penalty is only when the AB is on Originally by: Cipher Jones 3 CCC's are great. Unless you have terribad skills and micromanagement you wont be able to pop anything in less volleys (assuming you follow the rest of the advice and use utility slots in the extra mid slots) with other rigs. The T2 projectile damage rigs have a really sexy damage modifier, and you were really all about blitzing missions fast, you'd cap inject anyways, rendering the CCC rigs completely useless. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.15 21:35:00 - [12] That would then bring out the question: At which point [range] would a CNR doing 820 dps with fury Cruises doing the clean damage type outperform the Machariel? Pod
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.15 21:50:00 - [13] Edited by: Cipher Jones on 15/03/2011 21:52:36 Originally by: Pod Amarr That would then bring out the question: At which point [range] would a CNR doing 820 dps with fury Cruises doing the clean damage type outperform the Machariel? You mean and also with drones, because a CNR ain't pushin that much DPS at all 5's. All 5's vs all 5's, 43K, not counting for defender missiles. Quote: AE has plenty of rats that start 40-50km from you. A 1100 DPS Mach does that at 5km, but its closer 700 DPS at 40-45km (36% less). I don't know if the EFT graph takes into account the lower quality hits you get as you go farther in falloff, if it doesn't, you are actually closer to 40% less at 45km. So what you are really saying is that I have tried it both ways and you have not but your way is better.
Zilberfrid	Posted - 2011.03.15 23:07:00 - [14] A prop mod for a mach is a gank, tank and utility mod. Gank, because you'll do more damage up close, tank because the mach speed tanks a little, and utility because it does help closing with gates/targets. You'll probably have to use more then one cycle, and can decide to just float out the remaining distance. ------------------------------------- I like to fly around and shoot stuff.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.15 23:10:00 - [15] No that is all lvl 5 character with the 2 5 % implants. No drones. With Bouncers II's and the implants the CNR can push out 996 DPS Fury cruise With the same implants and 4 Bouncers Machariel can do 1485 DPS with Fleet EMP. [to get something like the 69 km fall off. This would be the number I would like to know. Pod
Alonzo Harris	Posted - 2011.03.15 23:35:00 - [16] Edited by: Alonzo Harris on 15/03/2011 23:43:10 Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Alonzo Harris Using faction ammo on a Mach is ****ed, you use about 2-3k per mission and at over 1k/round that doesn't help your income much, especially not if, like the OP, you want to sit so deep in falloff you keep wasting ammo. Sure, you'll mission a bit faster but it's not worth it. If anything use barrage (assuming angel missions), this is much cheaper and gives you a much bigger increase in dps at longer ranges. Using Faction ammo on a Mach is efficient from an isk/hour perspective. In the grand scheme of things...eah. Do what you prefer. But using RF rounds is by no means **ed. Compared to standard ammo yes, but if you start comparing it to Barrage (assuming Angel missions) then Barrage makes more sense when taking cost differences into account. Originally by:** Pod Amarr No that is all lvl 5 character with the 2 5 % implants. No drones. With Bouncers II's and the implants the CNR can push out 996 DPS Fury cruise With the same implants and 4 Bouncers Machariel can do 1485 DPS with Fleet EMP. [to get something like the 69 km fall off. This would be the number I would like to know. Too many variables to give a real answer, unless you start pinning down those variables. Whether kin is a good secondary damage type or not, target speed and angular speed, time you lose to missile flight and a whole bunch more. Also because turrets behave quite differently from missiles. All I can tell you is that a properly fit Mach (with AB) ****s missions like a madman, instant damage, decently selectable damage type, good tracking, no cap problems, good speed&agility, small sig radius. And to mr. Cypher; I did a little BC checking on you, while that's a bit lame it can be very telling. Your loss list is full of crap fits and losing mission BS's to Suddenly Ninjas. So I don't think we should take your opinions and overall game knowledge as facts. Just saying.
Headerman Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.03.16 00:37:00 - [17] Further more, i would really like to try a 1200 Arty Mach fit one day soon, with a MWD or AB. Would certainly overcome issues applying full DPS onto targets some distance away, even if the total DPS is lower
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.16 01:12:00 - [18] Originally by: Headerman Further more, i would really like to try a 1200 Arty Mach fit one day soon, with a MWD or AB. Would certainly overcome issues applying full DPS onto targets some distance away, even if the total DPS is lower I ran 7 1400's for WC sometimes before they allowed MWD's in missions. Its pretty cool for ****s and giggles but not the most efficient way to get it done. For that map you didnt need to tank at all (1st room).
Headerman Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.03.16 01:37:00 - [19] I wouldn't be using mine for missions, would be using it for Anoms out in 0.0, some spawns are usually between 30 and 50km away. The falloff and damage bonus would be very effective
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2011.03.16 03:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Cipher Jones 3. Any gist xlarge booster plus 2 hardeners should be enough for almost any mission. a 3rd hardener for the difficult sansha's missions will allow you to complete them easily. hell any t2 or better large booster plus 2 hardeners should work.

Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2011.03.16 04:29:00 - [21] Doesn't need a gisti sb.. and a bil+ in mods without a DCU is just asking for an alpha of death. Add in that you could use the cost of a gisti to instead fund DED hardeners, a pithi sb, RF gyros, a T2 RoF rig and still have another couple hundred mil leftover.. all while still succeeding in every mission. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please.
Dek'athor	Posted - 2011.03.16 06:56:00 - [22] Edited by: Dek''athor on 16/03/2011 07:01:26 I tried mach with AB and I'll switch to AB when it's warranted. Some missions put a decent strain on the tank and the trouble with speed mos is: * your tank is eighter not big enough, and you overheat and drain cap fast or burn out * or your cap is insufficient and you are left scrounging last ounces of energy to boost that booster That said, there is a rather large part of L4 missions where you barely get to cycle the booster, and where a speed mod would be beneficial to get in range of stuff. For those I'd consider swapping in the speed mod and event then it's iffy I don't see the benefit of moving closer to the packs. Max engagement range of 70 km is plenty. Stop there, lock on the frigs, start popping them. Lock on the cruisers, begin popping them. The rats will move by themselves into closer range, why waste your energy to move in a bit closer range while nerfing your damage output and self-neuting yourself? Slowboat to next distant pack to repeat the process while wasting the first pack. In the above scenario you won't see a big improvement in mission clearing time from AB over full tank. And let us not forget that higher speed = lower tracking = you may have issues killing cruisers and frigs = overall killing time roughly unchanged, BUT your cap is draining faster :/ That's my story and I'm stikin' to it
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.16 13:53:00 - [23] Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 16/03/2011 13:53:08 1. I prefer a speed and armor tank. With a good afterburner enemy turret battleships are barely able to hit me at close range and missile damage taken is drastically reduced, also an armor tank leaves room for an additional stasis webifier. 2. Calling other people stupid makes you look stupid. Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.16 16:33:00 - [24] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 16/03/2011 16:33:13 Originally by: Alonzo Harris If you start comparing it to Barrage (assuming Angel missions) then Barrage makes more sense when taking cost differences into account. Apart from that I don't think it'll actually make up for it in a "real world" scenario, there's many things that add to overall mission time; refitting ship for damage types&resists, undocking and warping to gate or mission etc etc. All that adds to the total mission time, and THEN shaving off a few seconds due to using faction ammo makes less of a difference percentage wise while still having the same cost, resulting in not so favourable numbers. I'd like to point out that the analysis I linked showed it shaved off more than a few seconds...it shaved off enough to make 8.4% more isk/hour over T1 even after accounting for the cost of faction ammo, tracking/falloff, and missed shots. On the Mach. (I think most people would agree that using Faction ammo on the Vargur is a more sensible idea.) But still, I think your view is just as valid as well. You have lower operation costs, and if you aren't slavishly monitoring the time it takes to run your missions and just trying to pad your wallet on any given day, using T1 ammo probably puts you ahead. I just wanted to point out that using Faction ammo is in no way a bad idea, and can actually be a significant benefit...you just have to be a bit of a mission grinding robot to see that benefit. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Alonzo Harris	Posted - 2011.03.16 21:23:00 - [25] It's not so much about clowning around or being inefficient, the test Liang did was based on mission completion time only. The result was that when using more expensive ammo taking away a percentage of the profit it would be offset by a bigger percentage in speed gain, but again Liang never accounted for total actual time to do a mission. Switching fitting, undocking, warping to gate, jumping perhaps, warp to mission, perhaps pick up mission completion item, then warping warping back to gate or station, docking again. If the result is that faction ammo increases net gains by 8% (when counting missions completion time only) then on a 10 minute mission you'd start to LOSE money if the total extra time of fitting/undocking/warping etc would take more than a minute, and it easily does. In a realistic scenario using faction ammo on a Mach just isn't worth it if you look for isk/hour.
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.03.17 04:06:00 - [26] Originally by: Cipher Jones So what you are really saying is that I have tried it both ways and you have not but your way is better. In all seriousness I did mention using strategy already and one shoting the small stuff in all those waves first is the only way to run it. You can easily pull that off no problems. By then you can be in great range. You don't seem to realize the AB does two things to improve your DPS 1. Gets you closer to rats. Very important because you are constantly LOSING damage the farther you get from 5km. No matter how great the number is in EFT, its constantly going down. 2. Allows you to use Keep at Range to minimize rat transveral. Better hits, more often. The Mach's great agility and the fact that mission rats are really slow, you can put just about BC+BS rat at 20-30km to you with a really low transveral. All it needs is a 3 slot tank and that leaves you with 2 mids left. The only real options you have to improve your gank are target painters (effective, but annoying. You won't have enough TPs to paint everything you shoot anyways.) or a speed mod. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.17 07:07:00 - [27] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 17/03/2011 07:14:33 Originally by: Alonzo Harris If the result is that faction ammo increases net gains by 8% (when counting missions completion time only) then on a 10 minute mission you'd start to LOSE money if the total extra time of fitting/undocking/warping etc would take more than a minute, and it easily does. In a realistic scenario using faction ammo on a Mach just isn't worth it if you look for isk/hour. My issue with your logic is that you're not talking as if the Mach using T1 ammo has to take the exact same time to dock, warp, change fit, and get to the mission as a Mach using Faction ammo would have to. To use Blockade as an example (it's fast and an easy 20mil wallet tick for division's sake), if it takes you fifteen minutes to run it with T1 ammo and 13.5 minutes to run it by faction, you have to spend fourteen minutes ***ing around getting to and from the mission before you lose the advantage that Faction ammo gave you. That's assuming you're buying Faction ammo at 1600 a pop off the market and blowing through 2000 rounds, as well. I can dock, turn a mission in, take a new one, and start shooting at the next rats within ten minutes easy. Faction ammo is simply better than the meager credit you're giving it. Missions that take longer to run than they do to get to and start skew to Faction Ammo's side. And I'll once again state for fairness's sake that I think using T1 ammo is perfectly fine, and I use it when I'm not grinding in a dedicated fashion. ED: I'd like to add that I only* considered the 20m isk tick you get for shooting the rats and completing the mission in the Blockade, and no other form of compensation from the mission. Things start leaning even more to Faction Ammo's side once you consider LP, but I didn't want to assign LP an arbitrary isk value since the work that turns that into isk happens outside of normal missioning time. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Alonzo Harris	Posted - 2011.03.17 10:16:00 - [28] You have your maths all wrong :) Let me explain in the only way EVE players understand, spreadsheet time! I've used your numbers (although they aren't a requirement to understand the problem) but used 1300 per RF round, so for 2k rounds that 2.6 mil total cost. What you should notice is that once you start adding extra (realistic) time to do more than just the bare mission, so you take the actual take needed for undocking, warping etc the advantage of using RF goes down the drain. Because you add extra/realistic time the percentage of time gained due to using faction goes down, while the extra cost stays the same percentage wise. Because of those two things Liang's finding, while correct on their own, get into trouble when accounting for total time needed.
NoNah	Posted - 2011.03.17 13:34:00 - [29] Edited by: NoNah on 17/03/2011 13:34:46 Originally by: Cipher Jones There's a lot of fits going around out there that are just plain slow at running missions. I have tried many fits that came highly recommended but left producing less isk. I just want to dispel a few myths about mission running in a mach. 1. Yes, we know its the fastest BS in the game. Putting an AB on it is stupid in any scenario where it doesn't help you finish the mission faster. Sometimes a MWD is better, usually no (speed) booster is needed. Remember that while it's the fastest, it's the most agile also. Killing its align time when you have to go to another system is a waste of time. And there ARE missions where the AB is warranted. An afterburner decreases damage taken, increases damage done and helps you with any sort of travel. No time is lost in alignment. There are however many missions where MWD's are warranted. I'd love to hear examples of missions where zero prop mods is desirable. Quote: 2. 3 CCC's are great. Unless you have terribad skills and micromanagement you wont be able to pop anything in less volleys (assuming you follow the rest of the advice and use utility slots in the extra mid slots) with other rigs. This makes no sense. If your micromanagemet is optimal, every last bit of dps counts, going CCC's means no burst aerator, means you lose some 75 dps. This is terribad. There is no mid or highslot modules that can compensate. Assuming you use an injector(which you should) CCC's give next to nothing. Quote: 3. Any gist xlarge booster plus 2 hardeners should be enough for almost any mission. a 3rd hardener for the difficult sansha's missions will allow you to complete them easily. It will also paint a big target. Using an afterburner you'll easily get by with a meta 4 or CN/DG shield booster(obviously t2 xl aswell, but it's general waste of SP to get it for a very long time imho) Quote: 4. lows = 4 gyro's + 3 trackers. Period. Oh... I agree. Quote: 5. Extra mid slots can be used for utility. Such as? Quote: 6. You don't need t2 guns on it, but you need enough DPS to forgo the 4th and 5th shield mods. About 700-750 (not including drones) should cut it. Meta 4's with faction ammo are great,republic fleet are best. I'd love to hear how republic fleet AC's are better than T2. While admitably it's rare, t2 even allows you hail and barrage for the occasions, and they have better damage than RF(assuming you have spec 2 or above). Parrots, commence! Postcount: 238162
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.17 13:51:00 - [30] Originally by: Alonzo Harris You have your maths all wrong :) Bah. ... Bah. Yes, I do. I subtracted the cost of ammo after calculating ISK/hour, rather than subtracting it directly from the isk before dividing by time. Which made it a fixed as opposed to proportional cost. Back to buying T1 ammo in bulk I guess. I do have a nitpick with your numbers however, even though it won't change the outcome: T1 ammo is cheap, but it isn't free. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.

price checkinho	Posted - 2011.03.17 15:50:00 - [31] Edited by: price checkinho on 17/03/2011 15:53:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltMOp-t-PIA
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.17 15:52:00 - [32] Quote: you don't seem to realize the AB does two things to improve your DPS You dont seem to realize that increasing DPS does not decrease mission completion time unless you can decrease the ammount of volleys or the time between volleys. Simple mechanics. Also, more tank is useless when you already have more than enough. .
Joe Forum Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.17 17:10:00 - [33] Edited by: Joe Forum on 17/03/2011 17:10:54 Originally by: Cipher Jones Quote: you don't seem to realize the AB does two things to improve your DPS You dont seem to realize that increasing DPS does not decrease mission completion time unless you can decrease the ammount of volleys or the time between volleys. Simple mechanics. Would that suggest a stepped response, increasing dps showing no improvement until you reached the point of a 'saved' volley (one not needed as the target was dead) and then further increasing dps showing no improvement, until the next 'step'. edit: typo
NoNah	Posted - 2011.03.17 19:40:00 - [34] Originally by: Cipher Jones Quote: you don't seem to realize the AB does two things to improve your DPS You dont seem to realize that increasing DPS does not decrease mission completion time unless you can decrease the ammount of volleys or the time between volleys. Simple mechanics. Also, more tank is useless when you already have more than enough. Your suggested setup is A) more expensive B) have more time between vollies and C) deals less effective damage per volley. That said, seeing how you speak of volleys, it almost seems like you're still using grouped guns other than for reloads - which you really shouldn't in a mach. Especially not now that it's so fast to swap between grouped and ungrouped. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 12063
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.17 20:51:00 - [35] Edited by: Malcanis on 17/03/2011 20:53:37 Originally by: Cipher Jones Edited by: Cipher Jones on 15/03/2011 22:08:48 Edited by: Cipher Jones on 15/03/2011 22:02:20 Edited by: Cipher Jones on 15/03/2011 21:52:36 Originally by: Pod Amarr That would then bring out the question: At which point [range] would a CNR doing 820 dps with fury Cruises doing the clean damage type outperform the Machariel? You mean and also with drones, because a CNR ain't pushin that much DPS at all 5's. With all 5s and 4x CN BCUs you get 838 missile DPS with T2 Fury missiles. 820 DPS with spec 4. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Tuskar	Posted - 2011.03.17 21:54:00 - [36] Edited by: Tuskar on 17/03/2011 21:58:10 Edited by: Tuskar on 17/03/2011 21:54:58 Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Alonzo Harris Using faction ammo on a Mach is ******ed, you use about 2-3k per mission and at over 1k/round that doesn't help your income much, especially not if, like the OP, you want to sit so deep in falloff you keep wasting ammo. Sure, you'll mission a bit faster but it's not worth it. If anything use barrage (assuming angel missions), this is much cheaper and gives you a much bigger increase in dps at longer ranges. Using Faction ammo on a Mach is efficient from an isk/hour perspective. No its not stop being idiots and AB is way to go. you can speed tank the battleships so you need to cycle your booster once every 2-5minutes stop failing
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.17 22:43:00 - [37] Originally by: Tuskar Edited by: Tuskar on 17/03/2011 21:58:10 Edited by: Tuskar on 17/03/2011 21:54:58 Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Alonzo Harris Using faction ammo on a Mach is ******ed, you use about 2-3k per mission and at over 1k/round that doesn't help your income much, especially not if, like the OP, you want to sit so deep in falloff you keep wasting ammo. Sure, you'll mission a bit faster but it's not worth it. If anything use barrage (assuming angel missions), this is much cheaper and gives you a much bigger increase in dps at longer ranges. Using Faction ammo on a Mach is efficient from an isk/hour perspective. No its not stop being idiots and AB is way to go. you can speed tank the battleships so you need to cycle your booster once every 2-5minutes stop failing IMHO failing would consist of needing more tank on a mach for missions. .
freshspree	Posted - 2011.03.18 00:26:00 - [38] Edited by: freshspree on 18/03/2011 00:29:58 MAX dps with regular ammo, T2 guns and 4 gyros is about 1000 and 1200 with faction ammo. If you use both, you'll find out that faction ammo only saves ya one volley at most and that's about 3.3 secs which is nothing tbh. You also notice the difference only when you hit battleships, battlecruisers and down (exempt elite rats) will still die in the same amount of volleys regardless of which ammo you use. IMHO, a mach should have semiconductors and not CCCs as rigs if you don't have decent skills but anything goes if your skills are up there, you can as well fit falloff boosting or whatever kinda rig ya want. It also falls under the EVE rule that cost/effectiveness gives you a log curve when you plot it out and it's a rare kinda log curve as it looks very similar to a steep cliff(very very steep). So, I've said it, faction ammo isn't worth it for missions. It should only be used in PVP or when using artillery as those conserve ammo pretty well. ~CAN WE END THE THREAD NOW?
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.03.18 06:45:00 - [39] Originally by: Cipher Jones You dont seem to realize that increasing DPS does not decrease mission completion time unless you can decrease the ammount of volleys or the time between volleys. Simple mechanics. A rat at 70km will take more shots to kill than the very same rat 50km away. You will improve your chances of of your turrets hitting by using your AB properly (getting closer to rats and minimizing their transveral velocity to you) ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.18 11:25:00 - [40] Zooming around with a Domi AB is more fun. If I just wanted a ship that could warp in and sit still while shooting rats I'd use a CNR. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

Marco P Really Nice And Laidback Corporation	Posted - 2011.03.19 09:42:00 - [41] OK, here are some rounded numbers for ease of reading. A 4 RF gyro fit Mach with CCCs and short range ammo pushes out a max of 960 dps (ignoring drones) with 4 + 60 opt + falloff (numbers courtesy of EFT). At 53.5k this falls to 480 dps (50%). Down to 23.5k (860 dps) the graph is fairly linear giving a dps increase of 125 per 10k. Inside that the next 10k gives 70 more dps then it gets very flat and transversal can become an issue. This is why I usually try to sit at 10-20k in a mach and if I have an AB I can get there quicker. So for me, in most missions an AB is worth it - it makes a considerable difference to real dps. Of course if you warp in to the middle of a bunch of rats theres no point. Lastly, I have also used a Mach for anomalies when the extra speed tank is necessary (I don't have a billion isk booster).
Whimsical One	Posted - 2011.03.19 10:08:00 - [42] Edited by: Whimsical One on 19/03/2011 10:14:58
Demolishar	Posted - 2011.03.19 11:30:00 - [43] Having recently bought a Machariel and T2 fitted it, I have these thoughts: 1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine. 2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them. 3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive. 4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using. Yes, I'm probably very inefficient.
Alonzo Harris	Posted - 2011.03.19 11:41:00 - [44] Originally by: Demolishar Having recently bought a Machariel and T2 fitted it, I have these thoughts: 1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine. 2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them. 3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive. 4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using. Yes, I'm probably very inefficient. 1) faction can make is better/easier, use where applicable but just ignore the "needs to fit X-type" crew 2) sentries can add useful damage, light drones to take care of frigs you didn't pop for whatever reason 3) RF can be useful, arguably. Personally I never bothered 4) because you fight in falloff and at 80km you do half the damage compared to being at 50km, so if there's a group of rats out of range you burn towards them while firing, increasing your dps
Marco P Really Nice And Laidback Corporation	Posted - 2011.03.19 11:58:00 - [45] Originally by: Demolishar Having recently bought a Machariel and T2 fitted it, I have these thoughts: 1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine. 2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them. 3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive. 4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using. Yes, I'm probably very inefficient. 1. I agree for the tank but for the gyros you get more dps = make isk quicker. 2. Also agree, but also agree with Alonzo's comment about frigs that get in close for some reason. 3. Extensive discussion on this and many other threads - most (including me) don't use it. I do on my Vargur though. 4. See Alonzo's answer and my post a few up. If you are just going to sit at 50k+ then don't use a Mach unless it is just because it is a cool ship and you revel in inefficiency!
NoNah	Posted - 2011.03.19 15:45:00 - [46] Originally by: Demolishar 1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine. It's not binary, being able to complete a mission shouldn't be the goal, it's should simply be assumed. Faction gyros drastically increase your yield and decrease the time spent on missions. If you can tank a mission fitting faction tank just makes your setup worse as it increases the value and hence the risks involved without granting you any extra benefit. [qoute] 2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them. Same as above, while you CAN kill frigates with guns, it takes time which you could've spent shooting battleships. Using sentries isn't a bad idea and means you will shoot frigates with guns aswell. Just make sure your guns aren't grouped. Quote: 3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive. Only worth it if your isk/lp is high already. If you're already doing some 13-1400 dps adding the extra bit from faction ammo can mean you can kill certain NPCs or buildings in less volleys or avoid some spawns entirely. It's not for all setups and situations. Quote: 4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using. And your damage starts diminishing at what... 4km? Parrots, commence! Postcount: 906655
Dek'athor	Posted - 2011.03.22 09:34:00 - [47] Originally by: Demolishar Having recently bought a Machariel and T2 fitted it, I have these thoughts: 1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine. 2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them. 3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive. 4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using. Yes, I'm probably very inefficient. 1. Faction gyros increase your damage. Nuff said. Faction tank gives more room for error. Faction propulsion sucks your cap less... 2. Your guns won't hit frigates orbiting at under 5km range. Feel free to waste your ammo trying. Drones will kill those critters just fine. And no, you can't pop ALL frigs from range, there are missions that pop you in 5k range of scram/web frigs that auto-aggro. I do prefer to lock on the frigs and pop them from 50-70k range without drone assist where possible tho. 3. I dun bother with it. I have about 60+50+50=160k combined rounds of different T1 ammos stashed, self made using reprocessed crap loots (I sometimes loot and salvage before calling it for the nite) 4. I only bothered with (faction) AB after getting a beefy enough tank. A 800 dps tank on lowest resists is my comfort zone, AB is only a bonus on top of this. Case study: worlds collide pocket 2: you can't pop the webbing drones due to tracking issues, you can't deploy the drones as they get aggro, one wrong move and you also get aggro. Pocket hits hard and you will be 2-3 webbed and double scrammed (hope you are platinum ensured, good thing for me that first time in that pocket was with a T1 BS...and no, it didn't end well). How I clear it with the mach: have (faction is better) AB fit, activate it, double-clik in space to move away from the rest of the spawn, kill what you can from the auto-aggro pack at warpin. You will move at about 120m/s with (usually) a single web on you. At 45-50km away from the rest of the spawn I deploy drones to kill the webber frigates. Start locking on the rest of the packs/frigates (from long range yo!) and insta pop them. Process may take a bit but is safe.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.03.23 01:13:00 - [48] Nope -- but if you're Amarrian, it's a fixed cost instead of proportional, and you can sell it back when you're done.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.03.23 06:44:00 - [49] Originally by: Demolishar Having recently bought a Machariel and T2 fitted it, I have these thoughts: 1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine. 2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them. 3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive. 4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using. Yes, I'm probably very inefficient. Have you really tried shooting from 80kms? I don't think so


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