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Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Sentinels
Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.18 00:53:00 -
[1]
Why does everyone get so hyped for Alliance Tournaments, yet half of you start raging at the idea of CCP implementing Arena pvp (that we have to field our own ships in)?
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Lynn Deniera
Caldari
The Foreign Legion
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.03.18 00:58:00 -
[2]
Arena pvp would kill the sandbox.
And the Tournament is the Tournament - its a big boasting event where alliances get to flex their muscles infront of everyone - and outside of the wars and campaigns.
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:04:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Sader Rykane
idea of CCP implementing Arena pvp (that we have to field our own ships in)?
Because when CCP tried to implement this a while back (With Apocrypha, irrc) it was revealed they couldn't make the server differentiate between Fake losses and Real ones.
This implies two things. It means that they tried to implement lossless PvP in the "Simulator" system they tried to add, and it also means Tranquillity knows better than CCP what goes and what doesn't.
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
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Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Sentinels
Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:05:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Sader Rykane on 18/03/2011 01:06:46
Originally by: Lynn Deniera
Arena pvp would kill the sandbox.
And the Tournament is the Tournament - its a big boasting event where alliances get to flex their muscles infront of everyone - and outside of the wars and campaigns.
How exactly would arena pvp kill the sandbox?
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Sader Rykane
idea of CCP implementing Arena pvp (that we have to field our own ships in)?
Because when CCP tried to implement this a while back (With Apocrypha, irrc) it was revealed they couldn't make the server differentiate between Fake losses and Real ones.
This implies two things. It means that they tried to implement lossless PvP in the "Simulator" system they tried to add, and it also means Tranquillity knows better than CCP what goes and what doesn't.
Once again, I'm not sure why "fake loss" matters. Let people use their real ships/items not fake ones.
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Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:12:00 -
[5]
I watch the PvP tournament because it's cool to watch other people pwn and be pwned. Especially when they're good at it.
In-game arenas sort of cheapen the concept. It also makes PvP meaningless. I thought that was what consoles were for.
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Xavier Isaacson
Minmatar
Surface Detail
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:13:00 -
[6]
If you honestly can't understand the difference between the Alliance Tournament and PvP Arenas then this isn't the game for you.
Originally by: Verone
BBC Trust are a sack of arses.
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mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:17:00 -
[7]
I also agree that arena PvP cheapens the concept of it all.
If you want cheap PvP, it's not hard to do, just insure some T1 ships and have everyone use T1 mods. If you need to test extremely expensive setups, just go to the test server.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Sentinels
Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:24:00 -
[8]
How about someone actually explains why? What makes them so different?
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Doddy
Excidium.
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:24:00 -
[9]
In the alliance tournament gms isolate the players from outside influence, ensure they are fitted legally. ensure the correct points totals of ships are present, control the start, enforces rules on warping out/distance etc. To implement sutch a system on tq without requiring gms do all the work is a big investment of resources for something that the playerbase is lukewarm about. Anyone who wants to have arena style fights can currently get together and have them (with an element of trust). Everyone else doesn't care.
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Sentient Blade
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:25:00 -
[10]
There needs to be something like Arena combat in EvE (done properly) to allow an easier introduction to PvP.
As it is now you can either wardec, or flip a can, and have half of the other corp coming down on your head when you had agreed to a 1 vs 1.
There needs to be a way of challenging another player, or group of players, with an option similar to trading where both fleets (or individuals) drag items and ISK into it and when agreed all of the items go into escrow, and are delivered to the winner according to whichever conditions were agreed upon.
This would allow putting in things like forfeiting if you cloaked, left system or changed ship. This is basically a mutual version of the often talked about end-conditions for wardecs, except this would happen between fleets.
People would still lose ships, but they'd be able to adequately insure them beforehand, and if you won you'd scoop whatever loot there was (probably not much) but you'd also get the cash prize from escrow.
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Frau Klaps
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:30:00 -
[11]
NO
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Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Sentinels
Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:31:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Sader Rykane on 18/03/2011 01:32:38
Originally by: Doddy
Edited by: Doddy on 18/03/2011 01:27:11
In the alliance tournament gms isolate the players from outside influence, ensure they are fitted legally. ensure the correct points totals of ships are present, control the start, enforces rules on warping out/distance etc. To implement sutch a system on tq without requiring gms do all the work is a big investment of resources for something that the playerbase is lukewarm about. Anyone who wants to have arena style fights can currently get together and have them (with an element of trust). Everyone else doesn't care.
To be sure none of the others answering you realise you don't want "lossless" combat at all, simply a way of ensuring even, competitive fights, which you currently can't have on tq. They wouldn't break the sandbox, nor cheapen pvp, they are simply a waste of resources.
You're telling me that people who created and coded this game aren't smart enough to automate arena pvp? That's pretty hard to believe. As for lossless, if its your ships, your money, and most importantly your e-peen at stake how is it lossless?
*EDIT*
Ah I misunderstood the last portion of what you wrote my bad, I wont change what I wrote though.
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Doddy
Excidium.
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
As for lossless, if its your ships, your money, and most importantly your e-peen at stake how is it lossless?
Er thats what i said, i was backing you up dude. As for the "don't believe ccp can't automate it", i hope you are joking, these are the people who did boot ini.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Sentinels
Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Sader Rykane
As for lossless, if its your ships, your money, and most importantly your e-peen at stake how is it lossless?
Er thats what i said, i was backing you up dude. As for the "don't believe ccp can't automate it", i hope you are joking, these are the people who did boot ini.
Already made an edit.
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Kacey Kandy
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:50:00 -
[15]
Yeah, no thanks. Go to SiSi if you want to do this kind of stuff.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:51:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Barakkus on 18/03/2011 01:55:55
Originally by: mechtech
I also agree that arena PvP cheapens the concept of it all.
If you want cheap PvP, it's not hard to do, just insure some T1 ships and have everyone use T1 mods. If you need to test extremely expensive setups, just go to the test server.
Except when everyone runs from you until they get 10x the number of people they need to kill you :P
I gave up on solo roams, can't get anyone to stick around to shoot at...and yes I know what a point is...catching them in order to point them is part of the problem...as soon as you show up on grid...boom, they're gone, then 10 ships land on you...not much fun in that...
Now I just try to catch the EVE Radio blobs with DJ Sam on the weekends and die horribly...at least it's a little more fun :P Somehow I'm always the guy with the most expensive ship out of all of them lol
Btw, for those of you interested in arena style pvp, many of the DJs on EVE Radio hold "tournaments" with prizes. Tune in to Wiggles, he runs cruiser fights and such.
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[SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Why does everyone get so hyped for Alliance Tournaments, yet half of you start raging at the idea of CCP implementing Arena pvp (that we have to field our own ships in)?
Like this?
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Aeronwen Carys
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:53:00 -
[18]
The Alliance Tournament takes place once a year and is run by CCP as a COMPETITION. Thats right, its a competition that involves PvP, it is NOT the only way that combat takes place in EVE. This is a sandbox game, having PVP arenas as the only place where combat takes place would turn it into World of Warcraft in space.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Sentinels
Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.18 01:59:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Sader Rykane on 18/03/2011 01:59:40
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Why does everyone get so hyped for Alliance Tournaments, yet half of you start raging at the idea of CCP implementing Arena pvp (that we have to field our own ships in)?
Like this?
Like that.
Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
The Alliance Tournament takes place once a year and is run by CCP as a COMPETITION. Thats right, its a competition that involves PvP, it is NOT the only way that combat takes place in EVE. This is a sandbox game, having PVP arenas as the only place where combat takes place would turn it into World of Warcraft in space.
Who said it was the "ONLY" place?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.18 02:13:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Why does everyone get so hyped for Alliance Tournaments, yet half of you start raging at the idea of CCP implementing Arena pvp (that we have to field our own ships in)?
Because people are hypocritical idiots ?
Originally by: Xavier Isaacson
If you honestly can't understand the difference between the Alliance Tournament and PvP Arenas then this isn't the game for you.
Oh really ?
Please do explain how exactly adding a small area of space where people can face off against eachother under controlled conditions and without outside interference is oh so much different from the alliance tournament.
And no, "it happens only once in a while" and "it's rare so it's interesting" are not even beginning to come close to the start of an argument.
Originally by: Doddy
In the alliance tournament gms isolate the players from outside influence, ensure they are fitted legally. ensure the correct points totals of ships are present, control the start, enforces rules on warping out/distance etc. To implement sutch a system on tq without requiring gms do all the work is a big investment of resources for something that the playerbase is lukewarm about.
Not really all that complicated.
All that is needed is a mechanic for spawning a temporary area of space that allows only certain ships//pilots to enter but none other, and only allows the ones inside to leave after certain preset conditions are met (like, say, certain ships having been destroyed).
The tools to do it are already mostly in place - all you need is to spawn a very large deadspace area (one that covers more than one grid) with thick near-instakill clouds in all neighbouring grids (to prevent outside interference of any kind, be it scan and warp or warp outside then travel) and an acceleration gate that only activates for specific pilots (maybe via some temporary high-ID items that get created as "round tickets" and destroyed soon afterwards to prevent reuse in a later fight or different arena).
Everything else can be player-enforced - the new "judge" profession will appear, which will simply scan and rescan to make sure everything is ok... or even players will scan their opponents using alts or friends, and each side does its own checking.
Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
having PVP arenas as the only place where combat takes place would turn it into World of Warcraft in space
Highlighted the part where you flip from "annoying whining" to "raging stupidity".
Who the bloody frak said ANYTHING about possible EVE PvP arenas becoming the ONLY way to do any PvP ?
Basic reasoning dictates that they would simply be ADDED to whatever is already in the game.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.03.18 02:14:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
You're telling me that people who created and coded this game aren't smart enough to automate arena pvp?
Why do you want to automate it? Organize an arena yourself. Put some prize capital together, advertise, name and shame cheaters. Once you have some success and reputation things will get easier. Nothing impossible here.
You will need to put in some effort though.
...
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Igualmentedos
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.03.18 02:41:00 -
[22]
How about a "duel" option?
For individual duels:
Player A and Player B want to fight each other for ****s and giggles, so Player A challenges Player B. Whoever reaches 1 point in structure loses. Then to avoid **** move suicide ganks, just give both ships 1 second immunity and restore their shield/armor/structure to the levels before the duel took place.
For group battles:
Fleet A of X amount of players challenges Fleet B of Y amount of players. They duke it out. As players die, they have their hp restored to pre-duel levels and they are now out of the duel. Last ship not on fire wins.
And so this doesn't curb-stomp PvP, make it so THIS CAN ONLY OCCUR IN HIGH SECURITY SPACE.
Ammo would still cost money, as would nanite repair paste or drones.
Benefits:
-Creates more demand for ammo, drones and NRP (SCORE!).
-Fun "even" pvp.
-Settle disagreements with duels.
-Carebears can safely grow some teeth (OHNOES)
Disadvantages:
-Less people running around looking for fights.
-Industry might take a hit (hard to judge this).
-Puts more people in High Sec.
-This does kill the sandbox IMO. Although, I would really enjoy this change.
Any thoughts?
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Frau Klaps
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.03.18 02:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Igualmentedos
How about a "duel" option?
Any thoughts?
Aside from the handheld gaming being completely broken for EVE, I could challenge my alt to a 1v1 then go afk in a safespot or perhaps even rat with immunity.
It's bad enough there is Sisi for 100k isk pew pew (spend some time there and you quickly notice some very obnoxious blobbers that are constantly on there smacking and being terrible). We don't need kindergarten PVP in game, that's what FW is for.
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Aeronwen Carys
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Posted - 2011.03.18 03:13:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
having PVP arenas as the only place where combat takes place would turn it into World of Warcraft in space
Highlighted the part where you flip from "annoying whining" to "raging stupidity".
Who the bloody frak said ANYTHING about possible EVE PvP arenas becoming the ONLY way to do any PvP ?
Basic reasoning dictates that they would simply be ADDED to whatever is already in the game.
Ok Mr over the top rude, first up the arguments and threads that the OP was referring to were 99% about removing the ability to PvP anywhere, and replacing them with PvP Arenas. Say Arenas do get introduced as one way to have uniterupted PvP, now think ahead just a little further to the day when all the whining little bastards want Arenas to be the ONLY place where PvP takes place. And dont try and tell me it wouldn't happen, I know you aren't that stupid.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Sentinels
Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.18 03:21:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
having PVP arenas as the only place where combat takes place would turn it into World of Warcraft in space
Highlighted the part where you flip from "annoying whining" to "raging stupidity".
Who the bloody frak said ANYTHING about possible EVE PvP arenas becoming the ONLY way to do any PvP ?
Basic reasoning dictates that they would simply be ADDED to whatever is already in the game.
Ok Mr over the top rude, first up the arguments and threads that the OP was referring to were 99% about removing the ability to PvP anywhere, and replacing them with PvP Arenas. Say Arenas do get introduced as one way to have uniterupted PvP, now think ahead just a little further to the day when all the whining little bastards want Arenas to be the ONLY place where PvP takes place. And dont try and tell me it wouldn't happen, I know you aren't that stupid.
1) My thread has nothing to do with the removal of pvp outside of arenas.
2) The bolded portion is complete bull**** and just irrational fear mongering, so because arenas exist suddenly alliances will no longer fight over territory, gatecamps will dissolve everywhere, and high sec wars will never be declared amiright?
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.03.18 03:34:00 -
[26]
Arenas would make for fair fight, absolutely. This is why ATs are exciting to watch; it's a real test of skill and leadership, with a nice slice of blind luck thrown in too.
However, the very nature of EvE is such that people SHOULD be able to cheat/lie/steal/blob/whatever to *anyone* at *any time* (if you're in a "fair" fight, you're already doing it wrong, frankly). You start walling off bits of the sandbox, it's a slippery slope; I'm not claiming that putting them in would be a "bad" idea, per se, but it would move the game in a direction it shouldn't be moving.
P.S. Yeah yeah, "hurf blurf ur a hippocrit y u no want arenas but do like alliance tourneys" and all that. The Alliance Tournaments are a special case, whatever claims you might want to make to the contrary.
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Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.03.18 03:56:00 -
[27]
As long as anyone could invade the arena and shoot who they like, I'm all for it. 
Originally by: Allestin Villimar
Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax
Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Roosterton
The 57th Overlanders
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Posted - 2011.03.18 04:00:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Roosterton on 18/03/2011 04:03:30
The way I see it, making arena PVP open to everyone is going to cause the open, battlefield, sandbox-style PVP even harder to get involved in. People who want PVP will be presented with two options; an uncertain engagement where they might get blobbed, tricked, betrayed, which can take quite a while to find in the first place - or an arena where they can instantly get an even fight. Of course, the arena is going to become a lot of player's first choice, since it requires less effort and tactics, which means those of us who enjoy open PVP for an actual reason get less potential fights. (Making it harder on the people who don't want to be spoon-fed arena fights)
Now, the big sov. holders in nullsec aren't going to be bothering with petty arena fights, and the arena will be taken over by solo, subcapital PVPers, which means there's an even LOWER smallgang:blob PVP ratio.
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Enemy corps raided into disbandment: Three.
Originally by: Tarminic
OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?! |
Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Sentinels
Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.18 04:14:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Sader Rykane on 18/03/2011 04:18:20
Originally by: Roosterton
Edited by: Roosterton on 18/03/2011 04:03:30
The way I see it, making arena PVP open to everyone is going to cause the open, battlefield, sandbox-style PVP even harder to get involved in. People who want PVP will be presented with two options; an uncertain engagement where they might get blobbed, tricked, betrayed, which can take quite a while to find in the first place - or an arena where they can instantly get an even fight. Of course, the arena is going to become a lot of player's first choice, since it requires less effort and tactics, which means those of us who enjoy open PVP for an actual reason get less potential fights. (Making it harder on the people who don't want to be spoon-fed arena fights)
Now, the big sov. holders in nullsec aren't going to be bothering with petty arena fights, and the arena will be taken over by solo, subcapital PVPers, which means there's an even LOWER smallgang:blob PVP ratio.
IE: Don't put in something that the majority of people will end up finding fun, because the minority of people will take a hit on what they find fun, which barely happens already?
Originally by: Mag's
As long as anyone could invade the arena and shoot who they like, I'm all for it.
Like in the alliance tournament?
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.18 04:20:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Igualmentedos
How about a "duel" option?
For individual duels:
Player A and Player B want to fight each other for ****s and giggles, so Player A challenges Player B. Whoever reaches 1 point in structure loses. Then to avoid **** move suicide ganks, just give both ships 1 second immunity and restore their shield/armor/structure to the levels before the duel took place.
For group battles:
Fleet A of X amount of players challenges Fleet B of Y amount of players. They duke it out. As players die, they have their hp restored to pre-duel levels and they are now out of the duel. Last ship not on fire wins.
And so this doesn't curb-stomp PvP, make it so THIS CAN ONLY OCCUR IN HIGH SECURITY SPACE.
Ammo would still cost money, as would nanite repair paste or drones.
Benefits:
-Creates more demand for ammo, drones and NRP (SCORE!).
-Fun "even" pvp.
-Settle disagreements with duels.
-Carebears can safely grow some teeth (OHNOES)
Disadvantages:
-Less people running around looking for fights.
-Industry might take a hit (hard to judge this).
-Puts more people in High Sec.
-This does kill the sandbox IMO. Although, I would really enjoy this change.
Any thoughts?
No, we still want real loss, just under the same controlled form as the Alliance Tourney. If you want 0 loss PVP you have the test server.
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