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Slaves and Punishment

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Uraniae Fehrnah	Posted - 2011.03.19 05:30:00 - [31] That is good to hear. I suggest you start by getting into more detailed communication with other Holders about how best to reform your current methodology. On a more personal note I'd also suggest you do some soul searching of your own. There is a good chance there are other family and friends of those slaves you did execute. You owe them some form of restitution or penance, and you owe it to yourself to try and diminish the stain the needless taking of life has left on you.
Dammion Orto	Posted - 2011.03.19 05:37:00 - [32] It has already been taken care of..I have tracked down the only family they had left and that was the mother of the child. I am traveling to her location as we speak and plan on, hopefully, buying her and then I plan on granting her freedom. I have been visiting other holders to guide me through this tough time.
Anabella Rella Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2011.03.19 05:52:00 - [33] Originally by: Dammion Orto I have been visiting other holders to guide me through this tough time. Awww, you poor misunderstood thing. You lopped off the heads of two people whom you probably starved, forcing them to steal food, yet you're the one having a tough time? Unbelievable. Don't back away from your false bravado now, slaver. Regale us with more stories of how you rule your fiefdom with an iron fist. I'd advise you not to sleep, or undock anytime soon.
Ava Starfire Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2011.03.19 05:53:00 - [34] You murdered a child and his father. "Im sorry" a few prayers, and "re-education" goes beyond insulting, to the realm of ridiculous...and now you're going to "find and help" the child's mother? I want every Amarrian, or whoever, to let me know what an appropriate response would be if I were to inform you all, publically and proudly, that I was holding an Amarrian child and his father captive, for years, forcing them to work for me, and then that I murdered them and displayed their heads to the rest of my captives when the child stole food.
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.03.19 05:58:00 - [35] And this is why I fly frigates. Why bother with the ethical issues regarding a slave crew when you can fly a ship so small you can practically reach out of your pod and touch three of the four walls?
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.03.19 06:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Ava Starfire I want every Amarrian, or whoever, to let me know what an appropriate response would be if I were to inform you all, publically and proudly, that I was holding an Amarrian child and his father captive, for years, forcing them to work for me, and then that I murdered them and displayed their heads to the rest of my captives when the child stole food. Well of course, Ava, since you're a Minmatar, that's clearly a base and disgusting display of barbarism. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Sakura Imoru	Posted - 2011.03.19 06:34:00 - [37] I'm not surprised. You just need to remember Falek Grange, one of the highest members of the Theology Council and Jamyl Sarum's mentor. He once had 1000 slaves slaughtered because one(!) didn't kneel in front of the so-called "holy seal" of the Amarr Empire. Or the (almost) genocide of the Starkmanir. "Disposal" of slaves which are disobidient and excessive punishments have always been the Amarrian way and I'm afraid this will never change. And then they say that the Matari are barbarians?
Silas Vitalia Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium	Posted - 2011.03.19 07:29:00 - [38] To those naysayers that sound so 'concerned:' I'm a bit confused that capsuleers who routinely kill hundreds and thousands of people in violent ways on almost a daily basis.... can seem so rattled by one dead slave. Wash that blood off your hands and get some perspective, children. Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Open for Recruitment!
Uraniae Fehrnah	Posted - 2011.03.19 08:09:00 - [39] Perspective is a funny thing. From one side yes, the loss of a single life, or in this case two lives, is no more significant than a single photon flying through the void. From another perspective the majority of a family is no more. I'd say the reason there is even some concern floating around here is because there is already a good amount of perspective on the situation. I certainly hope I never lose the ability to see the difference between killing enemies in a battle and executing someone in my care.
Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.03.19 08:21:00 - [40] Originally by: Rek Jaiga And this is why I fly frigates. Why bother with the ethical issues regarding a slave crew when you can fly a ship so small you can practically reach out of your pod and touch three of the four walls? That gets real lonely, real fast. There's no such thing as overkill, only degrees of effectiveness.

Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.03.19 09:13:00 - [41] Originally by: Silas Vitalia get some perspective As if a blind woman praying to a children's fairy tale has any business talking about perspective. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2011.03.19 10:09:00 - [42] 1. What was a child slave doing on your ship anyway? 2. If one has malfunctioning property, repairing would be wiser than destroying it. If one does not know how to repair the porperty one can always try to sell it to someone who does know. Also destroying the property that created the malfunctioning property as you did is even more unwise. 3. If one has a slave who steals, and neither patient instruction nor punishment seems to prevent this act, then try punishing the slave's loved ones instead. Whipping the father every time the child steals might be much more effective. Heathen barbarians should learn that they are not only responsible for themselves, but that we are a community, and the consequences of one immoral act are felt by many. You require two things to educate slaves: love and discipline. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Mizhara Del'thul Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2011.03.19 10:16:00 - [43] Mmmeehehehe... yes, that's right boys and girls. Murder your 'property'. 'Educate' each other on proper ways of punishment. Spout your religious drivel and refute that of your blood kin. End lives and enslave others. Let the slave blood flow and let their screams echo upon the winds until nothing else can be heard. Every drop of their blood spilled justify a thousand atrocities by the rest of us. In the end... there's nothing we can't do and still be justified in doing so. You're burning your own Empire and Faith down around yourselves by performing these deeds, or at the very least doing little more than waggle a finger in the direction of those who do so. The greatest threat to your Empire, Empress and faith is not those of us who'll go to any lengths to end you... it's these creatures who prove us right, and the rest of you who do nothing to prove us wrong. Bring forth your 'righteous' ways and display your atrocities proudly to New Eden... we'll match and surpass it as long as you keep giving us these reasons to do so.
Ashar KorAzor Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.19 12:08:00 - [44] Originally by: Uraniae Fehrnah I certainly hope I never lose the ability to see the difference between killing enemies in a battle and executing someone in my care. I have taken a liking to you, captain Fehrnah. I should like to speak to you at the earliest opportunity, over live comms. Originally by: Andreus Ixiris ...clearly a base and disgusting display of barbarism. This applies more to the effeminate posturing of a certain Intaki's transmissions in this discussion. He resembles you to a marked degree. Originally by: Sakura Imoru "Disposal" of slaves which are disobidient and excessive punishments have always been the Amarrian way and I'm afraid this will never change. Aside from the ignorance of Amarrian culture displayed here, there is also an irrational fear - a fear of a supposedly widespread and defining occurrence, and not one observed to be either of those things. When making statements of this sort about anything as large as a nation-state of the inner cluster, it would be wise to do one's research. It would be wiser still to first detect sufficient occurrences of this alleged tendency, and then ensure that that these occurrences were sufficient in number to constitute an acceptable quantity to support the sort of qualitative statements made above. Fortunately, in the case of the Empire, they are not particularly common and nothing like a majority - no more so than wage-slaves being overworked and dying early in their lives, as happens in other nations. There is a liberal contingent within the Faith, and it is hardly small. You have, unfortunately, proven yourself to know little about them - I would suggest altering this to the best of your capacity before you next try to speak of them - or speak FOR them, as you have here. It will likely improve the regard in which we hold your words, though I am afraid we will still not be able to take them into consideration on spiritual matters. Originally by: Silas Vitalia ...Wash that blood off your hands and get some perspective... The lives we take are not necessarily ours to take, captain Vitalia. However, you know well enough that the nominal purpose of the Amarrian practice of keeping bonds-folk is known throughout the cluster. When people make statements about their deviation from this purpose in public, it is hardly surprising that others capitalize on it and draw generalizations, wouldn't you say? There is also the matter of the deviation to contend with. Unless you disagree with the stated purpose of the whole practice of granting others enlightenment, in which case I would hear your justification for such a thing - privately. Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul Bring forth your 'righteous' ways and display your atrocities proudly to New Eden... we'll match and surpass it as long as you keep giving us these reasons to do so. The violent and the insane individual seeks to answer atrocity with atrocity. The sagacious seeker of peace seeks to improve the status quo. It is quite clear which side of the dichotomy you fall on. But I suppose if all you have is a jackhammer, every problem looks like a block of concrete to break into pieces. Sometimes, though, the block is only in your head - and such things tend to shape the person who carries them about.
Mizhara Del'thul Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2011.03.19 12:24:00 - [45] Until you show that we aren't justified in doing so... hell, until it's shown any other ways will achieve anything... we have no reason to do otherwise. Insane? Violent? Perhaps. Effective? Well, the Elder fleet proved it was. Until you and your kind shows proof that your actions follow your words and that your actions have an effect... there's no other recourse left for us, is there? I am improving the status quo every time I paint a wreck in the blood wrested from it's pilot's corpse. When do you improve anything?
Sakura Imoru	Posted - 2011.03.19 12:51:00 - [46] Originally by: Ashar KorAzor Originally by: Sakura Imoru "Disposal" of slaves which are disobidient and excessive punishments have always been the Amarrian way and I'm afraid this will never change. Aside from the ignorance of Amarrian culture displayed here, there is also an irrational fear - a fear of a supposedly widespread and defining occurrence, and not one observed to be either of those things. When making statements of this sort about anything as large as a nation-state of the inner cluster, it would be wise to do one's research. It would be wiser still to first detect sufficient occurrences of this alleged tendency, and then ensure that that these occurrences were sufficient in number to constitute an acceptable quantity to support the sort of qualitative statements made above. Fortunately, in the case of the Empire, they are not particularly common and nothing like a majority - no more so than wage-slaves being overworked and dying early in their lives, as happens in other nations. There is a liberal contingent within the Faith, and it is hardly small. You have, unfortunately, proven yourself to know little about them - I would suggest altering this to the best of your capacity before you next try to speak of them - or speak FOR them, as you have here. It will likely improve the regard in which we hold your words, though I am afraid we will still not be able to take them into consideration on spiritual matters. I thought the examples I offered would be proof enough: the attempted genocide of the Starkmanir, Falek Grange's slaughter of half his slave-stock and let's not forget about The Day of Darkness itself. The former must have seen the death of millions, maybe billions of innocents. Matari expression and unwritten rule for all Matari forces: "There is a fate worse then death: Being a slave in the Empire!"
Aurora Xadi Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.19 13:08:00 - [47] Originally by: Sakura Imoru Matari expression and unwritten rule for all Matari forces: "There is a fate worse then death: Being a slave in the Empire!" It would seem it's not the Empire but the Republic who needs to use constant fearmongering to control it's minmatar subjects.
Lyn Farel Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2011.03.19 13:09:00 - [48] Edited by: Lyn Farel on 19/03/2011 13:10:13 It has to be noted that lord Orto has already taken steps to repent himself and for some justice to be brought, even if it will never bring back to life the victims of his misleaded deeds. As for Ms Starfire, I suppose lord Orto trying to help the family instead of doing nothing is still an improvement and a step further to redemption. Of course, I would suggest him to help them indirectly via another Holder for example, or even another individual, that the family does not consider with hate for obvious reasons. Seeing the murderer of half of your family trying to help you might be a little excessive. Originally by: Ashar KorAzor Originally by: Sakura Imoru "Disposal" of slaves which are disobidient and excessive punishments have always been the Amarrian way and I'm afraid this will never change. Aside from the ignorance of Amarrian culture displayed here, there is also an irrational fear - a fear of a supposedly widespread and defining occurrence, and not one observed to be either of those things. When making statements of this sort about anything as large as a nation-state of the inner cluster, it would be wise to do one's research. It would be wiser still to first detect sufficient occurrences of this alleged tendency, and then ensure that that these occurrences were sufficient in number to constitute an acceptable quantity to support the sort of qualitative statements made above. Fortunately, in the case of the Empire, they are not particularly common and nothing like a majority - no more so than wage-slaves being overworked and dying early in their lives, as happens in other nations. There is a liberal contingent within the Faith, and it is hardly small. You have, unfortunately, proven yourself to know little about them - I would suggest altering this to the best of your capacity before you next try to speak of them - or speak FOR them, as you have here. It will likely improve the regard in which we hold your words, though I am afraid we will still not be able to take them into consideration on spiritual matters. Whatever you can show as obvious proofs to Ms Imoru, I am afraid you are wasting your time abess. As usual, she just wants to see what pleases her. Making a difference between the whole and the element does not fit with her views. And God knows that I tried.
Killer Gandry Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.19 13:23:00 - [49] Originally by: Merdaneth 1. What was a child slave doing on your ship anyway? I can't speak for him. But the few children I have onboard are there for certain details for which adults are simply too big. Originally by: Merdaneth 2. If one has malfunctioning property, repairing would be wiser than destroying it. If one does not know how to repair the porperty one can always try to sell it to someone who does know. Also destroying the property that created the malfunctioning property as you did is even more unwise. It's not always about what is wiser, it also can boil down to what is most cost effective. If said slave were costing more than bringing into the wallet and I don't have the time to sell him somewhere or be propperly "educated" in a reasonable timeframe then the garbage chute is the simplest costeffective method to prevent him weighing down on some costs. Why would I feed and take medical care of someone who steals from me. Not all pilots have the time or luxury to visit places of commerce that often as to just trade in the damaged goods. So the most costeffective thing to do is get rid in another way of the thief. Originally by: Merdaneth 3. If one has a slave who steals, and neither patient instruction nor punishment seems to prevent this act, then try punishing the slave's loved ones instead. Whipping the father every time the child steals might be much more effective. Heathen barbarians should learn that they are not only responsible for themselves, but that we are a community, and the consequences of one immoral act are felt by many. You require two things to educate slaves: love and discipline. Hence why I eject the thief and his 10 closest friends out of the garbage chute. The thief for obvious reasons. His 10 closest friends for not being able to keep him from his crime. So any thief or other violator of my ships rules knows if caught he kills not only himself but also his or her 10 closest friends. This in general assures that people tend to keep a closer eye on their friends actions and inactions. On a rare ocassion some slave feels the need to test my mettle in that department. So after they created 11 vacancies the rest is assured I am exactly what I say I am. They get fed, the get full medical attendance. The promising ones get educated in order to create more revenue. Some regain their freedom due to the simple fact they created more revenue than their cost in total. I'm not an animal, but my ship, my rules. Live by them or die by them. Do not fear death so much but rather the inadequate life.
Sakura Imoru	Posted - 2011.03.19 13:25:00 - [50] Originally by: Aurora Xadi Originally by: Sakura Imoru Matari expression and unwritten rule for all Matari forces: "There is a fate worse then death: Being a slave in the Empire!" It would seem it's not the Empire but the Republic who needs to use constant fearmongering to control it's minmatar subjects. It's not about fearmongering but about experiences, either personal one's (like mine) or passed-down one's from your parents and/or grand-parents who have been slaves.

Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Rogue Drone Systems	Posted - 2011.03.19 13:53:00 - [51] Buhaw-haw-haw-haw-haw! moustache twirl I'm an evil Amarr slaver! When my slaves misbehave I flay them of their skin, then roll them around in rock-salt! If they steal a loaf of bread, I slow-boil them in onion gravy, then let my most toothless aged slaver hounds gum them to death! Arrrgh! I'm a Minmatar freedom fighter! I find your treatment of slaves horrible! I'm going to lay out all the reasons why your race is barbaric and inhuman, by means of a well-thought-out and reasoned three point essay! I could be freeing more of my people right now, but I need to defeat you on the battlefield of discourse first, while you could well be beheading more slaves!
Chinwe Rhei Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.03.19 14:13:00 - [52] Edited by: Chinwe Rhei on 19/03/2011 14:16:45 Edited by: Chinwe Rhei on 19/03/2011 14:14:12 It seems the mustache-twirlest evil slaver around here is a bald headed Caldari much like yourself mister Istavaan. A friend of yours even i think ? Coincidence ? Or conspiracy ?! oh and, Quote: I'm not an animal Yes, you are.
Killer Gandry Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.19 14:15:00 - [53] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Buhaw-haw-haw-haw-haw! moustache twirl I'm an evil Amarr slaver! When my slaves misbehave I flay them of their skin, then roll them around in rock-salt! If they steal a loaf of bread, I slow-boil them in onion gravy, then let my most toothless aged slaver hounds gum them to death! Arrrgh! I'm a Minmatar freedom fighter! I find your treatment of slaves horrible! I'm going to lay out all the reasons why your race is barbaric and inhuman, by means of a well-thought-out and reasoned three point essay! I could be freeing more of my people right now, but I need to defeat you on the battlefield of discourse first, while you could well be beheading more slaves! Please refrain from pointing out the obvious thruth Istvaan. They might feel insulted and need to draft up even more horrible essays. Do not fear death so much but rather the inadequate life.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.03.19 14:46:00 - [54] Sometimes I feel being a mere anarchist terrorist doesn't really cut the mustard around here. These days my reputation is positively cuddly. Join the Revolution!
Natalcya Katla Naqam	Posted - 2011.03.19 14:59:00 - [55] Originally by: Dammion Orto Let me clear some things up about why I acted the way I did. First off, he had no reason to steal food. I always feed them the same amount I give everyone on my ship. The reasoning behind him stealing was that he wanted a challenge. I have caught him countless times stealing odd things. Every time I would take him and his father aside and tell them he needs to find a way for him to stop. He kept on, so I punished them both by adding more labor to their schedule. This went on for a week. Then that is when he got caught stealing from my chambers. So yes, I believe that he needed to be taken care of, I could have gone about it a different way now that I had time to think about it. I did it in anger and I shouldn't have done that. It seems like your enforcement of law and order onboard is haphazard and whimsical. First, stealing carries the consequence of a talk, then added labor burden, and finally execution. My suggestion is that you write up a clear, consistent, universal set of laws for your entire crew to follow, as well as a set of clear, consistent and precise (not approximate) penalties for breaking them. Bringing subjective judgment into law enforcement at all represents a threat to social order. It's no wonder your crew is confused and unruly. Furthermore, allowing parents supervisory rights over their children is never a prudent thing to do.
Silas Vitalia Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium	Posted - 2011.03.19 15:15:00 - [56] Point, set, and match Mr. Shogaatsu. That our Amarrian brother here obviously has some impulse-control issues and a lack of respect from his crew and property is obvious. That we have all replied within the standard roles we've prescribed ourselves, perhaps also. Worth thinking about. Ignoring the rest of this nonsense. Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Open for Recruitment!
Ava Starfire Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2011.03.19 15:25:00 - [57] Originally by: Killer Gandry Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Buhaw-haw-haw-haw-haw! moustache twirl I'm an evil Amarr slaver! When my slaves misbehave I flay them of their skin, then roll them around in rock-salt! If they steal a loaf of bread, I slow-boil them in onion gravy, then let my most toothless aged slaver hounds gum them to death! Arrrgh! I'm a Minmatar freedom fighter! I find your treatment of slaves horrible! I'm going to lay out all the reasons why your race is barbaric and inhuman, by means of a well-thought-out and reasoned three point essay! I could be freeing more of my people right now, but I need to defeat you on the battlefield of discourse first, while you could well be beheading more slaves! Please refrain from pointing out the obvious thruth Istvaan. They might feel insulted and need to draft up even more horrible essays. Even if we do, you will still be an idiot.
Killer Gandry Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.19 16:42:00 - [58] Originally by: Ava Starfire Even if we do, you will still be an idiot. Yes I am a free idiot, not an enslaved genius. Do not fear death so much but rather the inadequate life.
Valerie Valate Amarr Church of The Crimson Saviour	Posted - 2011.03.19 17:43:00 - [59] The Empire could probably have a thing, whereby slave owners who have failed in their duty could report for appropriate punishment. Perhaps being lashed by the Evil Space Nuns. It would be hilariously lucrative, and only underline how twisted the Theology Council has become. _________________________________________
Pax Thar Minmatar Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.19 18:11:00 - [60] This is why we fight, why no scenario in which the Amarr Empire is still influencial in New Eden is acceptable. Slavery is so engrained in their society that no ammount of civility will succeede. We must silence them with our autocannons, every last one until there is none left that dare claim Amarrian heritage. If we are the savages; I am proud to be one. I will dedicate my next kill (and the execution of any surviving crew) in the honor of the murdered child and his father.



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